Too many teachers in our schools are Irish nationals

RayCun

I'm not suggesting an A in honours Irish is sufficient.
I'm saying it shouldn't be necessary.

At the moment, if you have Irish and the points from other subjects, you only need pass maths, or pass English.
Why should Irish be the special requirement of those three subjects?

Sand

RayCun wrote: »

I'm not suggesting an A in honours Irish is sufficient.
I'm saying it shouldn't be necessary.

At the moment, if you have Irish and the points from other subjects, you only need pass maths, or pass English.
Why should Irish be the special requirement of those three subjects?

Well, because this is Ireland. Ireland and Irish. The clue is in the name. There are hints in the constitution.

It would be far more confusing if Honours Chinese was required to be a teacher in Ireland.

RayCun

Yeah, I specifically said "of those three subjects"

I'm guessing you would have been in favour of removing the requirement until you realized it disadvantaged immigrants.

Capt'n Midnight

irishgeo wrote: »

Tax payers money wasted on this. Why not have a survey that concludes the sky is disproportionately blue.

In Ireland ?

Most of the time it's cloudy. Our skies are grey.

The sunniest time in Ireland is summer and we only get about 6 hours of sunshine.



BTW Oktas are what you use to measure cloud cover.

riffmongous

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

In Ireland ?

Most of the time it's cloudy. Our skies are grey.

The sunniest time in Ireland is summer and we only get about 6 hours of sunshine.



BTW Oktas are what you use to measure cloud cover.

And then you have night time, and red mornings and evenings..

JohnMc1

jacksie66 wrote: »

If it was up to the people who came up with this study every school in Ireland would have an on site mosque, synagogue and standard uniforms would be phased out in favour of gender neutral, multicultural garments and Irish culture would be regarded as racist..

For the love of God don't give them any ideas.

JohnMc1

pearcider wrote: »

This is what happens when you fund sociology bs degrees. You get these “sky is blue” studies. All funded by the taxpayer of course. Two doctors. Doctors of what. Talking ****e is what.

Shows you how good we have it now. The Left is actually trying to create problems in order to look like they're solving them.

Only a lunatic would think Irish teachers teaching in Ireland is a bad thing.

bigpink

Need more people from other backgrounds than country and gaa people and middle class

hatrickpatrick

zapitastas wrote: »

Drop into a pop up gaeltacht and you can speak as Gaeilge and have a few pints at the same time. Just because you have no interest in the national language there is no need to denigrate it.

Denigrating it and acknowledging that it's at most a recreational pastime for most Irish people are two very different things. You don't have to denigrate Irish to state that it's absolutely f*cking moronic for it to be a requirement for literally any profession for which it isn't directly relevant.

Schools should just employ one Gaeilgoir per school to teach Irish to all the different primary classes and then let people who don't speak Irish apply to teach all the other subjects if they so desire. Requiring fluency in a non-functional language for a job is completely mental.

evolving_doors

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

In Ireland ?

Most of the time it's cloudy. Our skies are grey.

The sunniest time in Ireland is summer and we only get about 6 hours of sunshine.


BTW Oktas are what you use to measure cloud cover.

Naa he's right CapN , it is actually blue ...behind the clouds.
It's just you don't see it cos you're only out at night.

daheff

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

JohnMc1

daheff wrote: »

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Govt tries to scrap that eventually. The current Govt is knee deep in Virtue Signalling mode.

10000maniacs

These things tend to happen when the country happens to be Ireland.

CrabRevolution

daheff wrote: »

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

The Irish requirement has been there since the beginning of the state, it has nothing to do with unions or foreign teachers.

daheff

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The Irish requirement has been there since the beginning of the state, it has nothing to do with unions or foreign teachers.

sure... but its STILL there. Is it really fair to expect kids to learn Irish-especially kids from foreign countries?

Cordell

How is it not fair?

This non-problem will solve itself in time as some of the non-irish kids will grow up and some of them will choose to become teachers.

nullzero

We need radical Imams teaching sharia law obviously.

s7ryf3925pivug

Obscures the concerning issue of the lack of secular schools. Dont want my kid's time being wasted being indoctrinated.

Surely religion should be extra-curricular. Doing it in scool - then having to do homework to compensate - seems nonsensical and backward.

nullzero

Cory Acidic Wasteland wrote: »

Obscures the concerning issue of the lack of secular schools. Dont want my kid's time being wasted being indoctrinated.

Surely religion ahould be extra-curricular. Doing it in scool - then having to do homework to compensate - seems nonsensical and backward.

I know what you mean but I had the indoctrination and it gave me an insight into the nonsensical nature of religion which hasn't really harmed me.

circadian

jacksie66 wrote: »

If it was up to the people who came up with this study every school in Ireland would have an on site mosque, synagogue and standard uniforms would be phased out in favour of gender neutral, multicultural garments and Irish culture would be regarded as racist..

Catch yourself on.

evolving_doors

daheff wrote: »

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

Have you a source for that?

s7ryf3925pivug

nullzero wrote: »

I know what you mean but I had the indoctrination and it gave me an insight into the nonsensical nature of religion which hasn't really harmed me.

Harm or not, it's a waste of time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cory Acidic Wasteland wrote: »

Harm or not, it's a waste of time.

Same could be said of Irish. Or a lot of things that are compulsory after the leaving cert to be fair.

Anyway, as I said in the other thread, it's not about being Irish or Catholic, it's about being traditional. And people seem to think traditional is what kids need. I'd disagree in an increasingly modern and diverse world - not just country - but that's just me.

biko

pearcider wrote: »

This is what happens when you fund sociology bs degrees. You get these “sky is blue” studies. All funded by the taxpayer of course. Two doctors. Doctors of what. Talking ****e is what.

I actually have a degree in Sociology
It is a very relevant subject but easily hijacked by lefties pushing their own agendas.
I was sucked in for a while too but managed to get out. However it gives me a clear understanding of their views and motives, I'm like a sect member that have been "de-programmed".

daheff

evolving_doors wrote: »

Have you a source for that?

cmon now. Do you really think the unions would publish written evidence to this? They'd be dragged through the European courts and torn a new backdoor.


Like a lot of things in Ireland this is done on a nod & a wink basis.

Franz Von Peppercorn

daheff wrote: »

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

No. It’s an official language of the State.

Franz Von Peppercorn

daheff wrote: »

sure... but its STILL there. Is it really fair to expect kids to learn Irish-especially kids from foreign countries?

Most could well be born here.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

daheff wrote: »

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

daheff wrote: »

cmon now. Do you really think the unions would publish written evidence to this? They'd be dragged through the European courts and torn a new backdoor.


Like a lot of things in Ireland this is done on a nod & a wink basis.

You know the Earth is flat, right? Of course there's no written evidence for this - it's all done on a nod and a wink basis...

Franz Von Peppercorn

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'd disagree in an increasingly modern and diverse world -not just country - but that's just me.

The world is increasing in modernity at the same rate as it ever was - one second per second, one hour per hour, one year per year.

It’s not increasing in diversity at all. In fact it’s losing diversity in the very subject we are talking about. Languages. If you want a diverse world of languages then minority languages on a worldwide basis should be protected.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No. It’s an official language of the State.

Needlessly limiting and classic inside-the-box thinking. No reason why Irish couldn't be thought as a specialist subject by specialist trained teachers. The students who don't want to do Irish benefit, the students who do want to do Irish benefit, the language benefits.

Cee-Jay-Cee

RayCun wrote: »

Why is leaving cert honours Irish necessary to teach primary school children?

Its probably in our ridiculously outdated and antiquated constitution.

Why should there be non-Irish teachers in our schools anyway? Emigrants came here for work and family reasons, this is Ireland, did they expect that their children would be taught by teachers from their own countries?

I see no reason why there should be an increase in non-national primary school teachers in Ireland...at the same time I see no reason why non Irish people shouldn't get jobs as primary school teachers if they have the necessary qualifications but I don't think its something that should be driven to any degree. It most likely will happen slowly and gradually as immigrant children go through the education system and get the necessary qualifications.

One thing that I would insist on and would probably be a requirement anyway is a broad and clear ability to speak English in a neutral or near neutral accent and in my experience many non irish people still do not have that ability.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Needlessly limiting and classic inside-the-box thinking. No reason why Irish couldn't be thought as a specialist subject by specialist trained teachers. The students who don't want to do Irish benefit, the students who do want to do Irish benefit, the language benefits.

As someone who spouts utter cliches, as I pointed out above, I wouldn’t talk too much about in the box or outside the box thinking (And of course that’s another cliche.)

As an official language it’s probably unconstitutional to treat it differently to English - the other official language. Which means it would probably be unconstitutional if English were obligatory and Irish were not obligatory. Maybe both could be non-obligatory.

To change that, change the constitution. I’ve never seen any political demand for that outside the internet.

nullzero

Cory Acidic Wasteland wrote: »

Harm or not, it's a waste of time.

Religion is prevalent all over the world and while teaching a Catholic ethos may be outdated children should at least be aware of religious beliefs.
Your attitude may suit your world view and may be populist but believe it or not there is a whole world outside of "right on" "progressive" Ireland and children could do with learning about it, or should they be learning Cantonese and German?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Its probably in our ridiculously outdated and antiquated constitution.

You should petition to remove Irish from the constitution as an official language. No point just posting here.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The world is increasing in modernity at the same rate as it ever was - one second per second, one hour per hour, one year per year.

It’s not increasing in diversity at all. In fact it’s losing diversity in the very subject we are talking about. Languages. If you want a diverse world of languages then minority languages on a worldwide basis should be protected.

In your first sentence, it appears that you're saying we're modnerising exponentially, which was my point, so we agree there.

Secondly part, you're STILL thinking inside the box. I never said anything about diversity of languages (nor do I accept your point: Irish is in no danger of dying out now, nor would it be with my idea) - nor are you portraying how exactly we're losing diversity by staying traditional (surely the more variety open to a student the more diverse their education will be?).

FYI - just because you don't like the phrase "inside-the-box thinking", does not mean it's a cliche; and I'd have no problem with a constitutional change if it was voted for via referendum.

daheff

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You know the Earth is flat, right? Of course there's no written evidence for this - it's all done on a nod and a wink basis...

Go away out of that. Its a donut. See below pictorial evidence from the Flat Earth Thread debunking your claim

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

daheff wrote: »

Go away out of that. Its a donut. See below pictorial evidence from the Flat Earth Thread debunking your claim

I accept your theory and honest research, but I really think we'd notice if it had a bite taken out of it...

(And besides the philosopher in question, Homer, referred to a donut shaped universe, not planet!)

Franz Von Peppercorn

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

In your first sentence, it appears that you're saying we're modnerising exponentially, which was my point, so we agree there.

No, I’m saying that we are heading into modernity at the same pace as ever. One year per year.

Secondly part, you're STILL thinking inside the box. I never said anything about diversity of languages (nor do I accept your point: Irish is in no danger of dying out now, nor would it be with my idea) - nor are you portraying how exactly we're losing diversity by staying traditional (surely the more variety open to a student the more diverse their education will be?).

I was responding to your point about an “increasingly diverse” world. The world isn’t getting more diverse but less diverse. The loss of languages would be indicative of that. Amongst other things.

FYI - just because you don't like the phrase "inside-the-box thinking", does not mean it's a cliche;

It’s a total cliche and one, moreover, generally used by people who promote largely banal ideas.

and I'd have no problem with a constitutional change if it was voted for via referendum.

There is literally no other way. Would you campaign and expect to win on this referendum? If so get cracking.

All of this is in response to me pointing out to a poster who opined that teachers used the teaching of Irish as job security that in fact it’s a constitutional issue. This is merely a statement of fact.

From that you started talking in cliches and excitedly about boxes. Which, apparently, you are outside and I am in.

s7ryf3925pivug

nullzero wrote: »

Religion is prevalent all over the world and while teaching a Catholic ethos may be outdated children should at least be aware of religious beliefs.
Your attitude may suit your world view and may be populist but believe it or not there is a whole world outside of "right on" "progressive" Ireland and children could do with learning about it, or should they be learning Cantonese and German?

People like to argue against imaginary comments on this site. It's odd. I wasn't commenting about learning about religions in an academic manner. I was commenting about indoctrination into belief systems in schools. This generally includes teaching things literally which are known to be false, like that the world was created in six days, or that noah's ark was a historic event. It also takes up far too much time. Second class is sometimes called communion year because it takes up so much class time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No, I’m saying that we are heading into modernity at the same pace as ever. One year per year.



I was responding to your point about an “increasingly diverse” world. The world isn’t getting more diverse but less diverse. The loss of languages would be indicative of that. Amongst other things.



It’s a total cliche and one, moreover, generally used by people who promote largely banal ideas.



There is literally no other way. Would you campaign and expect to win on this referendum? If so get cracking.

All of this is in response to me pointing out to a poster who opined that teachers used the teaching of Irish as job security that in fact it’s a constitutional issue. This is merely a statement of fact.

From that you started talking in cliches and excitedly about boxes. Which, apparently, you are outside and I am in.

Well, I can change the wording if you like, but the essence is the same: you haven't actually supported the idea of traditional education or listed it's presumed benefits. You've just decided it's what we have and what we use, therefore it's best. So - restrictive thinking, repeated thinking, confined thinking, thinking inside the box, pick one. Same deal.

Nor am I limiting my argument to language. That's you. I don't mind second languages - in fact I'd encourage it - but the idea that the second language MUST be Irish, is again confined and limiting.

We're talking teaching: If you have a young, talented person who is good at engaging and inspiring kids, but doesn't speak Irish or doesn't come from Ireland or isn't Catholic - then why should he or she be automatically eliminated form the field? This, to me, is just plain daft. The idea that a teacher must speak a certain language, or have a certain background or believe a certain religion is most certainly confined / limited / inside-the-box thinking.

But as the world is modernising - we agree on that, even if we disagree with the rate - then how will traditional teaching methods and subjects - like religion or Irish - prepare children for a changing world?

Finally, thanks for the political lesson, but I know how the constitution gets changed. I lived in Ireland for over 30 years, but then left, so no - I won't be campaigning. There's an old saying: 'if you keep doing what you're already doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got."

Chinasea

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Why should there be non-Irish teachers in our schools anyway? Emigrants came here for work and family reasons, this is Ireland, did they expect that their children would be taught by teachers from their own countries?

I see no reason why there should be an increase in non-national primary school teachers in Ireland...at the same time I see no reason why non Irish people shouldn't get jobs as primary school teachers if they have the necessary qualifications but I don't think its something that should be driven to any degree. It most likely will happen slowly and gradually as immigrant children go through the education system and get the necessary qualifications.

So it's grand and dandy for de foreigners to come and clean our Toilets, empty our bins, clean up puke in hospitals etc, whilst living in gawd knows what kind of conditions etc.

But not OK that we consider having non Irish teachers that might help educate and understand the children of the minimum waged immigrants.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Chinasea wrote: »

So it's grand and dandy for de foreigners to come and clean our Toilets, empty our bins, clean up puke in hospitals etc, whilst living in gawd knows what kind of conditions etc.

A considerable number of immigrants have high paying jobs as well you know.

But not OK that we consider having non Irish teachers that might help educate and understand the children of the minimum waged immigrants.

The children of these immigrants would be Irish. Those children can then grow up here and teach. No restrictions. Although I do agree on the Catholic part. That should probably go.

markodaly

_Brian wrote: »

Entrance to college places is 100% transparent, everyone from every background gets a chance to apply to train to be a teacher.

But if your not arsed to get sufficient education to apply and be successful then those that are get the places.

More focus on the most suitable for the positions and less focus on ensuring every skin colour and ethnic minority is represented.

This is, of course fine, if you follow the traditional path of education in this country. But if say, you are a child and you emigrate to Ireland when you 9 years old, then you are automatically at a disadvantage because you do not have Irish.

Therefore, you do not have the same chance as everyone else. The fact that over 20% of the population are foreign-born means that these people will forever be locked out of certain old traditional jobs, such as the civil service, the Gardai, the teaching profession.

This is why primary teaching is made up of the same type of people as they did 30 years ago. They should add in rural to the white, female, Catholic label as well.
Of course those in the industry will defend this gerrymandering of this profession, as opening it up to candidates outside of Ireland may mean they have to compete with foreign-born teachers.

The fact is, to be a primary teacher, you need to have a H3 in Honors Irish, yet just a pass in both pass English and Maths. It's 100% discriminatory in my opinion. Those in the Teaching Council and Unions are cut from the same cloth. They welcome the Polish with open arms but would be horrified if they were eligible to be teachers here.

Chinasea

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

A considerable number of immigrants have high paying jobs as well you know.

Not the point in this instance.


The children of these immigrants would be Irish. Those children can then grow up here and teach. No restrictions. Although I do agree on the Catholic part. That should probably go.

Not the point either.

Cordell

Chinasea wrote: »

But not OK that we consider having non Irish teachers that might help educate and understand the children of the minimum waged immigrants.

Why do you think there is a need for that? I'm an immigrant myself, but I never felt the need to have my kids educated by non-Irish or same nationality as me.
And why will the ones on minimal wage be any different?
As an immigrant, this kind of patronizing and fake care really boils my peas. We don't need any special treatment, my kids were just fine until now, leave them alone, don't try to destroy the education system just to tick another box.

professore

Always thought it the height of stupidity that language teachers in particular are Irish ,,, most can't even speak the language they are teaching properly.

An tUasal C

markodaly wrote: »

This is, of course fine, if you follow the traditional path of education in this country. But if say, you are a child and you emigrate to Ireland when you 9 years old, then you are automatically at a disadvantage because you do not have Irish.

Therefore, you do not have the same chance as everyone else. The fact that over 20% of the population are foreign-born means that these people will forever be locked out of certain old traditional jobs, such as the civil service, the Gardai, the teaching profession.

Not sure where you are getting nine years of age from.. Exemptions can be gained begin from the age of 11.

Nothing stopping anyone from studying Irish anyway if they so wish, I know someone who took it up after moving here at the start of secondary school.

You do not need Irish to be a Garda, you need English or Irish along with an additional second language.

Chinasea

Cordell wrote: »

Why do you think there is a need for that? I'm an immigrant myself, but I never felt the need to have my kids educated by non-Irish or same nationality as me.
And why will the ones on minimal wage be any different?
As an immigrant, this kind of patronizing and fake care really boils my peas. We don't need any special treatment, my kids were just fine until now, leave them alone, don't try to destroy the education system just to tick another box.

Marofats, hold the horsee's.

The thread states there are too many Irish nationals as teachers. This is obviously an opinion, based on observation most likely.

My response was answering as to why we might consider spreading the net and CONSIDER non Irish nationals as teachers.

Some of us have special needs you know that come in all shapes, colours and sizes.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Chinasea wrote: »

Not the point either.

So what is your point, exactly?

markodaly

An tUasal C wrote: »

Not sure where you are getting nine years of age from.. Exemptions can be gained begin from the age of 11.

Nothing stopping anyone from studying Irish anyway if they so wish, I know someone who took it up after moving here at the start of secondary school.

You do not need Irish to be a Garda, you need English or Irish along with an additional second language.

Yes, they can be exempted but then cannot ever become a primary teacher. That's the problem.