Too many teachers in our schools are Irish nationals

An tUasal C

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, they can be exempted but then cannot ever become a primary teacher. That's the problem.

Foreign trained primary teachers can sit an Irish exam to allow them to teach here. If they were truly dedicated to teaching in Ireland an option is available to them.

Chinasea

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

So what is your point, exactly?

#92

zapitastas

markodaly wrote: »

This is, of course fine, if you follow the traditional path of education in this country. But if say, you are a child and you emigrate to Ireland when you 9 years old, then you are automatically at a disadvantage because you do not have Irish.

Therefore, you do not have the same chance as everyone else. The fact that over 20% of the population are foreign-born means that these people will forever be locked out of certain old traditional jobs, such as the civil service, the Gardai, the teaching profession.

This is why primary teaching is made up of the same type of people as they did 30 years ago. They should add in rural to the white, female, Catholic label as well.
Of course those in the industry will defend this gerrymandering of this profession, as opening it up to candidates outside of Ireland may mean they have to compete with foreign-born teachers.

The fact is, to be a primary teacher, you need to have a H3 in Honors Irish, yet just a pass in both pass English and Maths. It's 100% discriminatory in my opinion. Those in the Teaching Council and Unions are cut from the same cloth. They welcome the Polish with open arms but would be horrified if they were eligible to be teachers here.

Irish is not some mythical unattainable language though. If a person arrives in the country and a job they desire requires a proficiency in the national language then they can study it.

pearcider

Chinasea wrote: »

Marofats, hold the horsee's.

The thread states there are too many Irish nationals as teachers. This is obviously an opinion, based on observation most likely.

My response was answering as to why we might consider spreading the net and CONSIDER non Irish nationals as teachers.

Some of us have special needs you know that come in all shapes, colours and sizes.

An opinion based on politics more likely. Left wing politics to be precise. It’s an affirmative action type program these left wingers want. Instead of the job going to the most suitably qualified they want a quota for non nationals to the exclusion of the natives. It’s discrimination touted as “diversity”. I really hope a right wing party comes along quickly for this country because the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An tUasal C wrote: »

Not sure where you are getting nine years of age from.. Exemptions can be gained begin from the age of 11.

Nothing stopping anyone from studying Irish anyway if they so wish, I know someone who took it up after moving here at the start of secondary school.

You do not need Irish to be a Garda, you need English or Irish along with an additional second language.

We know the requirements, the question is; why?

As I said to Franz: If you have a young, talented person who is good at engaging and inspiring kids, and makes school interesting and fun for them; where in the hell does this idea come from that they aren't a good teacher because they don't speak Irish or weren't born here or aren't Catholic?

An tUasal C

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We know the requirements, the question is; why?

As I said to Franz: If you have a young, talented person who is good at engaging and inspiring kids, and makes school interesting and fun for them; where in the hell does this idea come from that they aren't a good teacher because they don't speak Irish or weren't born here or aren't Catholic?

I don't think anyone said that, or well I certainly don't think that. Not being Irish doesn't equate to not speaking Irish - there are Irish people that have Irish exemptions too.

Would we want that person to teach if they had poor English skills? No. Being good with children is one thing, teaching is another. A high standard should be expected in what they are teaching.

A primary teacher should be the full package so to say, and since the Irish language is on the curriculum they should be able to teach it.

Franz Von Peppercorn

zapitastas wrote: »

Irish is not some mythical unattainable language though. If a person arrives in the country and a job they desire requires a proficiency in the national language then they can study it.

If there was a movement to remove the need for fluent English to facilitate migrants who got here aged 9, I’m sure markodaly would be first to the barricades to protest about political correctness gone mad.

evolving_doors

daheff wrote: »

cmon now. Do you really think the unions would publish written evidence to this? They'd be dragged through the European courts and torn a new backdoor.


Like a lot of things in Ireland this is done on a nod & a wink basis.

How do you know it's true then?

Chinasea

pearcider wrote: »

An opinion based on politics more likely. Left wing politics to be precise. It’s an affirmative action type program these left wingers want. Instead of the job going to the most suitably qualified they want a quota for non nationals to the exclusion of the natives. It’s discrimination touted as “diversity”. I really hope a right wing party comes along quickly for this country because the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Jeez, will you get rid of the labeling machine. I am not left, right nor centre.

To me now it seems, you pull someone up on downright racism, your called a PC politically wing'd looney liberal like that's some kind major sin.

If you name call and label often enough, the sheep just follow.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We know the requirements, the question is; why?

As I said to Franz: If you have a young, talented person who is good at engaging and inspiring kids, and makes school interesting and fun for them; where in the hell does this idea come from that they aren't a good teacher because they don't speak Irish or weren't born here or aren't Catholic?

Nobody said that. All countries have certain restrictions on government professions - bring skilled at official languages is generally one of them. There are often other barriers as well.

The general point that if a school is 90% Irish the school staff should no more than 90% Irish is nonsensical. It shouldn’t matter, of course and as the children of migrants go through the system they can apply.

In particular in cases (like now) of strong demographic changes there isn’t really any way for the system to keep up. A school teacher is generally employed for life. A 60 year old teacher is statistically likely to be white and Irish and Catholic because when she was applying the country was 95% + Irish Catholic white. Female because of tradition.

If you want the teaching population to represent the demographics of students now then most all future hires would be minorities (as the number of new hires is a fraction of the total employed at any one time).

Alternatively just wait a few generations.

markodaly

An tUasal C wrote: »

Foreign trained primary teachers can sit an Irish exam to allow them to teach here. If they were truly dedicated to teaching in Ireland an option is available to them.

Another hurdle to jump through, which creates an artificial barrier to the job, which makes the profession the domain of female, rural white Irish Catholics.

As I said, the longer we have the status quo, the more discriminatory it becomes.

How many foreign trained teachers are primary school teachers?

ohnonotgmail

markodaly wrote: »

Another hurdle to jump through, which creates an artificial barrier to the job, which makes the profession the domain of female, rural white Irish Catholics.

As I said, the longer we have the status quo, the more discriminatory it becomes.

How many foreign trained teachers are primary school teachers?

there is nothing about being white, catholic or rural that makes it easier to learn irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An tUasal C wrote: »

I don't think anyone said that, or well I certainly don't think that. Not being Irish doesn't equate to not speaking Irish - there are Irish people that have Irish exemptions too.

Would we want that person to teach if they had poor English skills? No. Being good with children is one thing, teaching is another. A high standard should be expected in what they are teaching.

A primary teacher should be the full package so to say, and since the Irish language is on the curriculum they should be able to teach it.

Thread title specifies "Irish nationals".

The English language point is a non-starter., unless you're implying teachers need Irish in order to communicate with the students.

Disagree with the last part and put forward a alternate proposal, see quote below. Another would be to scrap compulsory Irish (whole different debate, to be fair).

At this point, the whole thing becomes a catch-22 situation: we need Irish speakers so that they can teach kids Irish so that they'll have it if they want to be come teachers so that they can tech kids Irish so that -- you get the idea.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Needlessly limiting and classic inside-the-box thinking. No reason why Irish couldn't be thought as a specialist subject by specialist trained teachers. The students who don't want to do Irish benefit, the students who do want to do Irish benefit, the language benefits.

markodaly

zapitastas wrote: »

Irish is not some mythical unattainable language though. If a person arrives in the country and a job they desire requires a proficiency in the national language then they can study it.

As I said, it creates an artificial barrier to the job, a discriminatory one at that, which protects Irish born and Irish educated teachers against foreign-trained teachers, who would be just as good, if not better.

At least admit the consequence of this Irish language policy in education has now had.

This is a very good example of the duality and the nonsense of the welcoming Irish. One one hand, we gladly accept Poles or other Eastern Europeans coming here by the tens of thousands, but we create stupid rules to lock these people out of state and public sector jobs. I suppose they are good enough only to be your waiter or cleaner, but god forbid they teach in a classroom or end up as a clerical officer or executive officer in some department.

Many middle-class jobs like those are out of bounds for our new residents. Got to love the Irish hypocrisy.

Ah, sure they can always just go off and spend thousands of euro learning the language to apply for those jobs, right? As if that is a valid argument to the status quo. Its like saying to the teenager from an inner-city council estate that they have the same odds of going to Trinity as someone from Blackrock College because they both do a Leaving Cert. People born into circumstances have different advantages. Those who deny that are both stupid and idiots.

markodaly

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there is nothing about being white, catholic or rural that makes it easier to learn irish.

So why are 99.999% of Primary teachers white and Irish born? It is arguably the most segregated profession in the state.

ohnonotgmail

markodaly wrote: »

So why are 99.999% of Primary teachers white and Irish born? It is arguably the most segregated profession in the state.

because most of the populate are white and irish. Maybe not 99% but these things take time to catch up.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Nobody said that. All countries have certain restrictions on government professions - bring skilled at official languages is generally one of them. There are often other barriers as well.

And I'd argue they're being limiting as well unless there is a practical need for the skills.

The general point that if a school is 90% Irish the school staff should no more than 90% Irish is nonsensical. It shouldn’t matter, of course and as the children of migrants go through the system they can apply.

In particular in cases (like now) of strong demographic changes there isn’t really any way for the system to keep up. A school teacher is generally employed for life. A 60 year old teacher is statistically likely to be white and Irish and Catholic because when she was applying the country was 95% + Irish Catholic white. Female because of tradition.

Fair enough - none of this I've debated, but again: what are the beenfits of tradition as opposed to fresh or moderised ideas?

If you want the teaching population to represent the demographics of students now then most all future hires would be minorities (as the number of new hires is a fraction of the total employed at any one time).

Alternatively just wait a few generations.

Again, not something I've debated.

markodaly

Compulsory Irish was brought in in 1934 in an effort to supplant English as the primary language.
It never happened, yet we still persist with this nonsense of compulsory Irish.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/analysis-compulsory-irish-review-shines-light-on-sacred-cow-of-education-1.3646761

The outcome today in 2018 is a highly segregated and dare I say it anti-foreign national policy of making it harder for non Irish born to become primary school teachers.

Jellybaby1

This will all change in time because so many non Irish parents here are of course having children here, a lot of whom can speak their parents' native language, plus English, and will also learn Irish in school. When they leave school they might, like many Irish people, forget how to speak Irish because its not used in their daily lives. But there will come a day soon when Africans and Poles will speak perfect Irish and will become teachers. Then the children will speak perfect Irish with African or Polish accents!

ohnonotgmail

markodaly wrote: »

Compulsory Irish was brought in in 1934 in an effort to supplant English as the primary language.
It never happened, yet we still persist with this nonsense of compulsory Irish.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/analysis-compulsory-irish-review-shines-light-on-sacred-cow-of-education-1.3646761

The outcome today in 2018 is a highly segregated and dare I say it anti-foreign national policy of making it harder for non Irish born to become primary school teachers.

Irish is the first language of the state. Maybe one day we might start to actually teach it properly and we end up with a bilingual generation like the welsh.

markodaly

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

because most of the populate are white and irish. Maybe not 99% but these things take time to catch up.

Over 20% of the people living in Ireland are foreign-born and that is rising, yet we are happy to persist with the fact that there are some jobs that are plainly discriminatory to those 20%+

That my friend is called racism-lite.

ohnonotgmail

markodaly wrote: »

Over 20% of the people living in Ireland are foreign-born and that is rising, yet we are happy to persist with the fact that there are some jobs that are plainly discriminatory to those 20%+

That my friend is called racism-lite.

and most of those in the last 20 or so years. It is the next generation of those immigrants that can become primary school teachers if they wish and they will enjoyed the same advantages as the child of native irish people.

markodaly

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Irish is the first language of the state. Maybe one day we might start to actually teach it properly and we end up with a bilingual generation like the welsh.

The Catholic Church had a special position also in the constitution and a woman's place was in the home. I guess we just have to accept those as well?
Right?

The Ireland of 1937 and of 2018 is very different.

Today, there are more Polish and Mandarin speakers than Irish every day.
In the next ten years, it will fall out of the top 5 most spoken languages in the state.

There is a reason why Ireland never adopted right wing politics, its because we fool ourselves that postcolonial Irish nationalism is not the same thing as the likes of the EDL would be fighting for. When it comes to sacred cows of Irish identity we as a nation are as right wing as the EDL and BNP.

ohnonotgmail

markodaly wrote: »

The Catholic Church had a special position also in the constitution and a woman's place was in the home. I guess we just have to accept those as well?
Right?

The Ireland of 1937 and of 2018 is very different.

Today, there are more Polish and Mandarin speakers than Irish every day.
In the next ten years, it will fall out of the top 5 most spoken languages in the state.

There is a reason why Ireland never adopted right wing politics, its because we fool ourselves that postcolonial Irish nationalism is not the same thing as the likes of the EDL would be fighting for. When it comes to sacred cows of Irish identity we as a nation are as right wing as the EDL and BNP.

I'll leave you to have your little rant. you're talking complete nonsense now.

markodaly

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and most of those in the last 20 or so years. It is the next generation of those immigrants that can become primary school teachers if they wish and they will enjoyed the same advantages as the child of native irish people.

Ah, so **** the 1st and 2nd generation of migrants.
How very Boris Johnson of you.

What about the new migrants that will be arriving every year? Back of the queue to ya! How very 'welcoming'.

markodaly

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I'll leave you to have your little rant. you're talking complete nonsense now.

Pesky facts! How dare they burst my racist bubble.

ohnonotgmail

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, so **** the 1st and 2nd generation of migrants.
How very Boris Johnson of you.

What about the new migrants that will be arriving every year? Back of the queue to ya! How very 'welcoming'.

markodaly wrote: »

Pesky facts! How dare they burst my racist bubble.

Paul Murphy would be embarrassed to post crap like that.

An tUasal C

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Thread title specifies "Irish nationals".

The English language point is a non-starter., unless you're implying teachers need Irish in order to communicate with the students.

Disagree with the last part and put forward a alternate proposal, see quote below. Another would be to scrap compulsory Irish (whole different debate, to be fair).

At this point, the whole thing becomes a catch-22 situation: we need Irish speakers so that they can teach kids Irish so that they'll have it if they want to be come teachers so that they can tech kids Irish so that -- you get the idea.

Even in English speaking primary schools, teachers do need to be able to communicate with the students in Irish when they are teaching it. Not sure what your point is though. Someone from Lithuania with bad speaking/writing skills and lack of knowledge English obviously shouldn't be teaching in a primary school here because like Irish a high standard is expected. You know what I meant, teachers should be well rounded and multi-disciplined of course that includes English. Foreign teachers are expected to know that, why not Irish?

Irish is an official language of the state and hence it should be learned in schools. Why should Irish have to be taught by another teacher and not music, I am sure plenty of primary school teachers cannot play an instrument and why not get artists and geographers in while we are it? There are enough people out there capable of the job of primary teaching, black or white, catholic or protestant, Irish or not Irish so I do not see why it would be necessary to scrap an entire language to benefit a minority that could learn Irish if they wanted to.

zapitastas

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, so **** the 1st and 2nd generation of migrants.
How very Boris Johnson of you.

What about the new migrants that will be arriving every year? Back of the queue to ya! How very 'welcoming'.

Anyone can learn Irish if they are so inclined and it does not cost thousands of euro either. Are now more means than ever for becoming an Irish speaker. The idea that someone can't learn to become proficient in Irish because they are not Irish nationals is lunacy. It is a language not the enigma.

As well as that if you go into any gaelscoil in the country you can see for yourself that there is a very strong presence of children whose parents would not be Irish nationals. Rather than dying the language is certainly having a bit of a resurgence

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An tUasal C wrote: »

Even in English speaking primary schools, teachers do need to be able to communicate with the students in Irish when they are teaching it. Not sure what your point is though. Someone from Lithuania with bad speaking/writing skills and lack of knowledge English obviously shouldn't be teaching in a primary school here because like Irish a high standard is expected. You know what I meant, teachers should be well rounded and multi-disciplined of course that includes English. Foreign teachers are expected to know that, why not Irish?

Again, this is ciyclical thinking.

My point was that teachers need a common language with their students to communicate. Yours was that they need it to teach it. Both true, but the first is a need, the second isn't. If the kids only spoke English then would you hire a monolingual Irish-speaker...? of course not.

Ultimately, your argument failed to recognise the fact that the reasons for the two languages are completly different.

Irish is an official language of the state and hence it should be learned in schools. Why should Irish have to be taught by another teacher and not music, I am sure plenty of primary school teachers cannot play an instrument and why not get artists and geographers in while we are it? There are enough people out there capable of the job of primary teaching, black or white, catholic or protestant, Irish or not Irish so I do not see why it would be necessary to scrap an entire language to benefit a minority that could learn Irish if they wanted to.

Bold bit number one: EXACTYLY!!! And yet we don't insist that teachers need to be able to play the piano before they train to be teachers, do we?

Bold bit number two: massive strawman argument, is this "scrapping an entire langauge" is not and never will be my point. If you want to debate that as an issue, find someone who posted it. Isn't and isn't going to be me.

zapitastas

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Irish is the first language of the state. Maybe one day we might start to actually teach it properly and we end up with a bilingual generation like the welsh.

It has changed now at primary level as there is a heavy focus of using it through song and play so that it has a positive association and children look forward to the Irish class . I am not sure about secondary though

ohnonotgmail

zapitastas wrote: »

It has changed now at primary level as there is a heavy focus of using it through song and play so that it has a positive association and children look forward to the Irish class . I am not sure about secondary though

well that can only be a good thing. A pity they didnt have that when i was in school.

zapitastas

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well that can only be a good thing. A pity they didnt have that when i was in school.

Yeah personally speaking I disliked Irish when in school. It is only in the last number of years that I decided to learn the language. While I still struggle with some of the grammar it has been a remarkably positive experience second time around. someone commented earlier that it costs thousands. My first port of call was a free language resource through the library, mango. This was like a refresher. Followed by a night course which cost 130 euro. Then I have been going to Irish nights in various pubs and also pop up gaeltachts. I am lucky in that I have some friends that a fluent so I can chat away to them.

BrokenArrows

munchkin_utd wrote: »

English at a native speaker level also needed for primary teaching, which is sortof an advantage for native english speakers.

I'd say irish geography or history is also not big on the curriculum in Nigeria or Latvia or wherever people arrive from.

Such a stupid bit of research.

Should probably my rule out most of the country then.

Atoms for Peace

The Catholic Church is really failing when it comes to indoctrination. Despite spending my primary education in Catholic schools I'm know agnostic.

Mardy Bum

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

The Catholic Church is really failing when it comes to indoctrination. Despite spending my primary education in Catholic schools I'm know agnostic.

Got a good education so!

pleas advice

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

The Catholic Church is really failing when it comes to indoctrination. Despite spending my primary education in Catholic schools I'm know agnostic.

Same as the Gaelic League

whisky_galore

zapitastas wrote: »

It has changed now at primary level as there is a heavy focus of using it through song and play so that it has a positive association and children look forward to the Irish class . I am not sure about secondary though

We had songs in irish...we didn't know wtf we were singing about!