Endurance ; frequency and distance ?

2selfconscious

hi , 
apologies if this is in the wrong forum , thought this would be the best place to ask.
training for a mountain marathon of sorts , only the events are back to back (5 days) over arduous terrain carrying a fair load on your back against the clock. 
 the program i came up with to cover all areas as well as juggling rest and recovery is :
day 1                            day 2           day 3       day 4                       day 5           day 6         day 7 
HIIT(RUN)                 long bike      rest         HIIT (RUN)            long bike      rest          HIIT (RUN) 
STRENGTH SESH                      flexibility  STRENGTH SESH                    flexibility    STRENGTH SESH

My question is for those two long bike rides what type of distance and time should i be looking at for endurance ? Anyone who has done this same event swore by cycling as the cadence transeferred to marching uphill.
any input or advice much appreciated , thanks

Enduro

What exactly are you training for?

Without knowing exactly what the event/race is, the one thing that looks glaringly absent in your training is specificity. More precisely long distance runs carrying loads. That looks to be totally in absence. I suspect you've had a big swig of the HIIT cool-aid.

Long bike rides help with general endurance, and hilly bike rides help with climbing on foot. They are a great supplement to specific training, but not a substitute.

2selfconscious

thanks for the reply , 
id be a bit embarassed to say ha its not something you d really tell people about (sorry)
good point , but the nature of this particular beast is if you train specific as in doing the activity (smashing yourself on the hills) or stuff similar to it a lot , its a lot of pounding/degrading of the body and you ll arrive on the event fit enough but fatigued and wont last so have to train smart .. i did alot of heavy heavy weighted runs last time , hours upon hours on the hills and was fit but knackered when it came time to deliver (this is very very common) , fourth day out of nowhere was just done in body couldnt keep the pace needed  ... i will throw in the odd few but ive done that type of stuff enough to where its built in to an extent through my own training and day to day job .. the emphasis on weight training , bike and strength work is gospel from blokes who have done it , they were dead against pounding the roads no end , heavy weighted runs , and heavy hill work they were all about training smart with strength work , a few hiit runs a week , flexibility/foam rolling and long bikes  .. the only hill work they reccommended was to spend a few days (if you can not essential according to them) in the particular are with just minimal kit and WALK the area so you re familiar with reference points etc ill be doing plenty of that over xmas anyway

2selfconscious

day 2 and 5 the distance i figured to do was 100k on the bike followed by 5 mile run twice a week .. all done at a moderate pace (still able to converse)   .. sound about right ?

EC1000

2selfconscious wrote: »

id be a bit embarassed to say ha its not something you d really tell people about (sorry)

So you're looking for advice on your training but won't divulge what type of event you are training for. You then get advice from one of the foremost endurance athletes in the country and tell him he's wrong.

I'm not sure what you really expect to achieve with your thread...

BTH

EC1000 wrote: »

So you're looking for advice on your training but won't divulge what type of event you are training for. You then get advice from one of the foremost endurance athletes in the country and tell him he's wrong.

I'm not sure what you really expect to achieve with your thread...

I'm amazed this isn't a troll....

Enduro is right, and if you arrived at the start line heavily fatigued last time then you had an insufficient taper.

peter kern

I would focus a bit more on strenght work and take the hiit runs out ...
or listen a bit to what enduro said re the runs
also think a bit of structure there is times you could focus more on volume and times more on speed and then times where you need more race specific training.



at the same time this guys training worked as well and he was not overfatiqued at the race start ...



https://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a23460129/i-did-an-ironman-with-no-training/

griffin100

Is this some form of military selection / test?

Dubs1990

I say more a goruck event .

RIGOLO

Ive 2 answers .

Answer 1) Dont do a 7 day plan, go on a 8 or 9 day plan, replace a REST day with an more active recovery day LSR, theres too many HIIT sessions especially on double days, drop one HITT or change it and re-plan around taking 1 full rest day in an 8-9 day schedule .
I presume after marching uphill you will be marching back down, so try to find some location and spot in your plan for one hill sessions.

Answer 2) I hope you can take a joke...
Interesting thread, it has me intrigued all this mystery about the event, but as an ex Scout leader Im all too familiar with this scenario.
The first over-nighter can be a bit daunting for a young Beaver.
Do no worry OP, you will be with your friends , Im sure there will be smorgs (melted marshmallows) and your mother will be along to collect you in the morning.

2selfconscious

again thanks for the replys , very helpful .. ill take one HIIT session out (bringing it down to two) and replace that with a  saturday/sunday out on the hills with a bit of weight on , there will be a week in dec (a few weeks from the start date) where ill solely be hill walking in the area .. Those two pointS plus the odd weighted run every two weeks or so should satisfy the specifity enduro , peter and rigolo referenced ?? might look more balanced/endurance based and geared for the task at hand then (i hope) .. @rigolo well played sir , very perceptive of you  .. would i make a bad impression if i use white light on the over nighter ? :D

RIGOLO

2selfconscious wrote: »

again thanks for the replys , very helpful .. ill take one HIIT session out (bringing it down to two) and replace that with a  saturday/sunday out on the hills with a bit of weight on , there will be a week in dec (a few weeks from the start date) where ill solely be hill walking in the area .. Those two pointS plus the odd weighted run every two weeks or so should satisfy the specifity enduro , peter and rigolo referenced ?? might look more balanced/endurance based and geared for the task at hand then (i hope) .. @rigolo well played sir , very perceptive of you  .. would i make a bad impression if i use white light on the over nighter ? :D

In my expereince 'consistency and frequency' will beat 'intensity' every time, in the long run (pun intended) .

Your double days and regularity and variation of training will build the base you need.
Too many HITT sessions just beats you up especially coming into the winter, harder to recover , and whilst that might get you over the line in 3 months its not really building a base for doing this for the next 3-4-5 years.

And watch out for your Strength Sessions.. you dont say what area you are targetting, wethere its upper body, legs or composite (both) sessions.
With all the running, Id hope your not doing too much legs strength sessions. Core and upper body would be my focus, it will help you keep form when your legs tire, whilst also not impacting on your running training too much. With 1 day at the most of composite or legs . Again the intensity here is important, are you doing small reps with big weights or in your case i think high reps and 3-4 sets is more suited.

Course all this advice is just friendly stuff, Ive no idea of your background. Consistency and frequency is your friend, enjoy the mountain training and best of luck sounds like a serious event, enjoy.

peter kern

2selfconscious wrote: »

again thanks for the replys , very helpful .. ill take one HIIT session out (bringing it down to two) and replace that with a saturday/sunday out on the hills with a bit of weight on , there will be a week in dec (a few weeks from the start date) where ill solely be hill walking in the area .. Those two pointS plus the odd weighted run every two weeks or so should satisfy the specifity enduro , peter and rigolo referenced ?? might look more balanced/endurance based and geared for the task at hand then (i hope) .. @rigolo well played sir , very perceptive of you .. would i make a bad impression if i use white light on the over nighter ?

I have no idea to be honest and I would not give recommondation on something i dont know enough about somebodies background. as in your case

all i can say what enduro and rigolo have said certainly has his potenial merits and is an improvement of your original plan ( which to be fair even without any info was .... )

the only thing i will say , to me it looks like you dont have a good enough grasp of the subject and not even of the basics.

a you should study more to understand more of the basics . and what eduro said aobut cycling flat and hills was certainly v useful for you .

b you are totally ok with it that what you are doing is very likely sub optimal ( iam pretty sure even your new plan is not remotely specific enough cross training is good but there is a limit so if oyu are not cycling in the race or not really running or with a backpack on it .....)

or c maybe you need to find better advice and give better background info etc
still ignorance can be bliss and often its good to do something and as log as you dont get killed you will get something out of it and learn for the next time.

Domo1982

peter kern wrote: »

I have no idea to be honest and I would not give recommondation on something i dont know enough about somebodies background. as in your case

Wowser!

Yet you have enough information in 4 posts from the OP to dissect his whole background and to be highly critical of his level of experience?

Crazy post(another) - if this is not the definition of getting personal then what is. I would raise with "mods" but you seem to get preferential treatment from them so whats the point.

The continued discrimination again inexperienced competitors is alive and well I see.

BTH

Domo1982 wrote: »

Wowser!

Yet you have enough information in 4 posts from the OP to dissect his whole background and to be highly critical of his level of experience?

Crazy post(another) - if this is not the definition of getting personal then what is. I would raise with "mods" but you seem to get preferential treatment from them so whats the point.

The continued discrimination again inexperienced competitors is alive and well I see.

Where exactly does he dissect the OPs whole background? He suggests that the OP looks like he/she doesn't have a good enough grasp of the basics of training for an endurance event. I think even the OP would agree with that, as would all the contributors to the thread given the basic level of advice provides. He then suggests 3 options.

A. Study the topic
B. Continue with a sub-optimal plan, as long as you're happy and enjoy it
C. Give more information here so we can better advise

How is that the definition of getting personal? How is offering advise to someone who asked for it discrimination against inexperienced competitors?

Just because you find the posts of a non-native English speaker difficult to read and understand does not make those posts "crazy". If you're going to get angry every time Peter posts then just block him. And me too while you're at it. I'm just glad your inability to read didn't result in you reporting the post this time.

peter kern

I suggest from now on domo 1982 and i meet once a month and write replies for beginners, how he thinks it should be done.

you contact me any time when you are ready and i meet you at the sandymount hotel and we get started.

Domo1982

BTH wrote: »

Where exactly does he dissect the OPs whole background? He suggests that the OP looks like he/she doesn't have a good enough grasp of the basics of training for an endurance event. I think even the OP would agree with that, as would all the contributors to the thread given the basic level of advice provides. He then suggests 3 options.

A. Study the topic
B. Continue with a sub-optimal plan, as long as you're happy and enjoy it
C. Give more information here so we can better advise

How is that the definition of getting personal? How is offering advise to someone who asked for it discrimination against inexperienced competitors?

Just because you find the posts of a non-native English speaker difficult to read and understand does not make those posts "crazy". If you're going to get angry every time Peter posts then just block him. And me too while you're at it. I'm just glad your inability to read didn't result in you reporting the post this time.

About as expected from you. Good of you to summarize and rewrite Peters post for him but I'd no problem reading the post it was the tone I had obvious issues with. Not sure why you felt the need to point out that the post was from a non native? I'm not sure that is appropriate to be honest.

I haven't posted in months on this forum and have reacted to one of Peters post previously so suggesting that getting angry every time Peter posts is bull**** remark. Just untrue and dishonest from you.

The forum is a waste of time - it shouldn't be given how popular Triathlon/AR is at the moment.(Q the why don't you don something about it then- I did PM the mod a suggestion about making it more beginner friendly and guess what - ignored and no response.)....again about right.

I find it incredible that you cannot see any problem with Peters post? Actually, there are a number of other responses to the op that are poor as well.

But I'm sure the usual "Elites" will be on to thank your post very soon. You seem to be full of self importance and that should make your evening.

If you have any other dealing with me I'd prefer you did on PM instead of posting inaccurate statements online.

Thanks

Domo1982

peter kern wrote: »

I suggest from now on domo 1982 and i meet once a month and write replies for beginners, how he thinks it should be done.

you contact me any time when you are ready and i meet you at the sandymount hotel and we get started.

lol - I'm in!

Not sure what the Hotel policy is on non natives though!:rolleyes:

BTH

Domo1982 wrote: »

If you have any other dealing with me I'd prefer you did on PM instead of posting inaccurate statements online.

Thanks

That's a bit rich given your accusations against the mods.

Just because you read a post in a certain tone does not mean everyone else reads it in the same tone nor does it mean your interpretation is the posters intention.

Enough off topic nonsense, back np topic please. If the OP feels aggrieved by any of the advice offered then let him/her highlight that.

Kurt.Godel

2selfconscious wrote: »

hi , 
apologies if this is in the wrong forum , thought this would be the best place to ask.
training for a mountain marathon of sorts , only the events are back to back (5 days) over arduous terrain carrying a fair load on your back against the clock. 
 the program i came up with to cover all areas as well as juggling rest and recovery is :
day 1                            day 2           day 3       day 4                       day 5           day 6         day 7 
HIIT(RUN)                 long bike      rest         HIIT (RUN)            long bike      rest          HIIT (RUN) 
STRENGTH SESH                      flexibility  STRENGTH SESH                    flexibility    STRENGTH SESH

My question is for those two long bike rides what type of distance and time should i be looking at for endurance ? Anyone who has done this same event swore by cycling as the cadence transeferred to marching uphill.
any input or advice much appreciated , thanks

I can't improve on the good advice you've received from Enduro and Peter, just to chime in that I've done a fair amount of mountain running on and off over the years, and while you can do a long arduous hike/run/traverse day one off non-specific training, you will suffer like a dog on days 2,3,4... Ascending/descending over rough terrain will play havoc with muscles unused to that sort of thing, and no amount of HIIT or conditioning will prepare you for it.

Every single person I've known over the years who is good at hill-running, gets good by doing hill-running. Sure they supplement with bikes, S&C, etc, but training specific is the best way to prepare. Keep up HIIT if you enjoy it, but if you are serious about training for a mountain marathon, get the muscles used to the hills (and the back used to the backpack!).

2selfconscious

@kurt i can assure you i dont enjoy HIIT , i dont even like training that much tbh lol necessary evil , the hills are just an obstacle to the actual goal so has to be done

Enduro

2selfconscious wrote: »

@kurt i can assure you i dont enjoy HIIT , i dont even like training that much tbh lol necessary evil , the hills are just an obstacle to the actual goal so has to be done

I'm also guessing you're doing a military qualification / test. Do come back and let us know how it goes for you, and what you reckoned worked.

I was thinking a bit more about your challenge, and thinking about what I would have learned over the years to take on something similar (multiple days in the hills carrying weight... in your case I'm guessing quite a lot of weight). The big point of failure in my experience was, to put it simply, tired feet. That overwhelming feeling of just wanting to get off your feet and sit down. Again, from experience, the way to train this out is time on feet in training.... lots and lots of it. The good/bad news is that it takes a long time to get that adaption (again in my experience). So your background is likely to have a bigger impact than any changes you make to your routine before January. I'd still work on it though!!

Neady83

I'd second what Enduro has said above. There is no substitution for time on your feet and that feeling of waking day after day, putting on your boots/trail runners and backpack and having to power up those hills when you're exhausted.

I think incorporating back to back long days on your feet would help you physically and mentally going into your challenge. If you get these right and put the time into them, you could row back a bit on your training load during the week to give the body time to recover.

Maybe you could start with a long hilly run on Saturday (if weekends are your preference) and a shorter run on Sunday without a backpack to start and gradually lengthen the Sunday run and add a backpack to both as the weeks go on.

On another weekend you could do a 12 hour hike on Saturday and on Sunday do a long flat run or find a hill for the Sunday and hike fast up it with your backpack on your back and jog down it, repeatedly. There are many ways/combinations to do back to backs but the main thing is that you are doing your second day on tired feet and legs.

I'm really intrigued as to what you are doing. Keep us in the loop as to how your training is going.