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Air BnB to be effectively banned for non PPR

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    #422
    Jamsiek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭Jamsiek


    SusanC10 wrote: »
    I actually disagree with this. We pay less than a Hotel to rent someone's Apartment/House when we travel. We do not hold it to the same standards as a Hotel and we don't pay the same amount as a Hotel - usually considerably less which makes it affordable for us. However, we do want a self-catering place to ourselves.

    Hotels range in price and standard from 2 star to 5 but they still need to abide by the same rules.
    AirBNBs used as hotels should also have to abide by these rules


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    #423
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Jamsiek wrote: »
    Hotels range in price and standard from 2 star to 5 but they still need to abide by the same rules.
    AirBNBs used as hotels should also have to abide by these rules

    Why? A B&B is closer to a hotel than an airbnb and a large number of them don't need planning nor need to meet any particular standards.


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    #424
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Jordy Muscular Pennon wrote: »
    Why? A B&B is closer to a hotel than an airbnb and a large number of them don't need planning nor need to meet any particular standards.

    As long as it’s a PPR and no more than 4 letting bedrooms isn’t it?


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    #425
    shenanagans
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭shenanagans


    I have used AirBnb and found it brilliant. Cheap way to go on holiday. The arguments and comparisons about regulations and hotels is non-sense to me. People use Airbnb because it's a cheap way to travel.....as opposed to booking hotels. People don't expect hotel standards and regulations....they read reviews and book and Airbnb based on other peoples reviews. I mean it's a cheaper way to travel...simple as that. And there are tonnes of young Irish people using it. It's both their best friend and worst enemy all rolled into one.

    The anger in regards to Airbnb comes I imagine from all those 20 and 30 somethings struggling to buy or rent at the moment. But in all honesty will banning Airbnb solve the problem....I hope it helps but I doubt it will. Yes more properties may come back on the market to buy or let but I think those that have made money on Airbnb over the last couple of years will find it hard to accept reasonable rent....I mean can you really see an Airbnb host putting their property up for rent at the old rent levels from a few years ago? (as in affordable levels). I think Airbnb hosts forced to rent their properties again will ask crazy rent and won't accept any less as they've been spoiled with the income from their property from Airbnb. Any property off the rental market for the last 2 years can now come back to the market and ask whatever rent they want....the old rent that was registered with the RTB 2 years ago or more wont apply as it's over two years ago....so it's happy days for landlords they can ask whatever they want and with the lack of supply they'll get it too. It's still a win win for hosts/landlords.

    it will benefit buyers as many hosts will probably sell if the ban is implemented and enforced.


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    #426
    Lolle06
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Lolle06


    Bluefoam wrote: »
    But strata fees are for the upkeep of the property. The management company are not the law. They cannot govern the property owners, as much as they'd like too...

    I am afraid there are lease agreements and/or house rules for apartment buildings. So unless the owner of one unit (or multiple units) purchases the entire building, he can not overrule the OMC. In any case he will have to comply with the conditions set out in the Planning Permission.


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    #427
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    Graham wrote: »
    Agreed.

    I suspect the new proposals will be aimed for implementation by the booking platforms and mandatory licensing/registration requirements. Booking platforms are much more likely to enforce compliance enough to be effective.

    well if they can oblige the platforms to comply, then it may well work but i am yet to be totally convinced.

    i bet a larger % of those giving out about short term lets have no problem in popping over to Barcelona or Amsterdam for a few nights and use these very same platforms to locate accomodation.
    Double standards methinks.


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    #428
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Jamsiek wrote: »
    I can guarantee most people would rather not live next to an AirBNB, me included. They have been banned from the building I live in for a good reason.

    What kind of problems did the AirBnBs cause? This isn’t a defensive question, I’m in total agreement with them being banned from residential apartment blocks. I’m just curious.


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    #429
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,798 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Common complaints here would be mostly noise based. People act as if they are in a hotel with soundproofing etc not an apartment block (often built quite poorly) where residents know not to have parties at night, run power showers at 4am or whatever


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    #430
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    L1011 wrote: »
    Common complaints here would be mostly noise based. People act as if they are in a hotel with soundproofing etc not an apartment block (often built quite poorly) where residents know not to have parties at night, run power showers at 4am or whatever

    i've been in apartment blocks mainly on the continent, and some of the worst offenders have been Irish.
    usually dragging themselves home from the pub @ 3-4am, laughing, shouting and roaring, slamming doors.


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    #431
    Jamsiek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭Jamsiek


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    What kind of problems did the AirBnBs cause? This isn’t a defensive question, I’m in total agreement with them being banned from residential apartment blocks. I’m just curious.

    Mainly parties and noise even during the week. There was also a lack of accountability with thefts, etc. The management decided enough was enough.


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    #432
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    i don't understand why any landlord would not prefer long-term tenants who respect their neighbours, and also respect and maintain their property as against gangs of singletons whose only intention is to get sozzled and create as much nuisance as possible.


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    #433
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    i don't understand why any landlord would not prefer long-term tenants who respect their neighbours, and also respect and maintain their property as against gangs of singletons whose only intention is to get sozzled and create as much nuisance as possible.

    Of course it’s preferred. However long-termers start as short-termers.

    It’s hard to predict which ones will stay and pay, and which ones won’t. A bad tenant is expensive and risky.

    All tenants effectively have fixity of tenure for 6 years. This is a long time. A bad tenant is expensive and risky.

    The risks with Airbnb are different, but do not include someone holding and damaging / depreciating your asset for 12/18 month.


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    #434
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    3DataModem wrote: »
    Of course it’s preferred. However long-termers start as short-termers.

    It’s hard to predict which ones will stay and pay, and which ones won’t. A bad tenant is expensive and risky.

    All tenants effectively have fixity of tenure for 6 years. This is a long time. A bad tenant is expensive and risky.

    The risks with Airbnb are different, but do not include someone holding and damaging / depreciating your asset for 12/18 month.

    i own a few rental properties, and i never had these problems. maybe i've been lucky. but i ALWAYS personally interview prospective tenants, take up references, and if i dont like the look of them i would rather leave it vacant for a couple of weeks until the right person comes along.


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    #435
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,113 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    This is badly needed.

    Such is demand in Dublin that Landlords are renting rooms per night on AirBnb rather than for a traditional weekly/monthly rate. Not only will this free up supply but will also help slow the increase of rents in Dublin


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    #436
    Heart Break Kid
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭Heart Break Kid


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Fantastic! Iv come to the conclusion that the sense of entitlement out of some property owners in this country is staggering. Ill publish my findings in due course. PM me your address and ill send you a copy!

    Its my home, my property, perfectly entitled to have a sense of entitlement.

    Last time I check the state didn't help me in anyway to buy it.


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    #437
    Jamsiek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭Jamsiek


    Heart Break Kid wrote: »
    Its my home, my property, perfectly entitled to have a sense of entitlement.

    Last time I check the state didn't help me in anyway to buy it.

    ...but the house still needed planning permission
    If your neighbor wanted to open a nightclub beside you, would you be happy?


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    #438
    syndrome777
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭syndrome777


    please delete if this is not allowed

    https://en.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/9ldxg9/dublin_property_visualised/

    some guy and his mates put together a little map that shows some insight into how Airbnb is used to abuse the property market


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    #439
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    syndrome777 wrote: »
    please delete if this is not allowed

    https://en.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/9ldxg9/dublin_property_visualised/

    some guy and his mates put together a little map that shows some insight into how Airbnb is used to abuse the property market

    Wow, they're everywhere. The amount of them is ridiculous. I honestly didn't think it was that bad.


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    #440
    davemie
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭davemie


    Each dot it about 1/5 of the size of St. Stephen's Green, which gives an impression there are a lot more in the city.

    It would be great to see numbers compared to total number of rental properties, or total number of houses in the city. Something real rather then something going for shock value.


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    #441
    ballyharpat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    It would also be interesting to see if they are full apartments/houses, or just rooms etc.


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    #442
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    syndrome777 wrote: »
    please delete if this is not allowed

    https://en.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/9ldxg9/dublin_property_visualised/

    some guy and his mates put together a little map that shows some insight into how Airbnb is used to abuse the property market
    So looking at the map it seems that Airbnb is used in the core city centre where tourists want to stay and residents don't.
    People making the planning argument against Airbnb are not proving any point apart from its possible illegality. Bad planning decisions are made all the time and there is no reason to assume that planning decisions against AirBnB are correct or help housing costs. If you really wanted to reduce housing costs the most direct way to do so is reduce the planning red tape and taxes that developers face. I am not against all regulation but there is a strong relationship between increased regulation and increased cost. It is shocking how people dont understand this.


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    #443
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    syndrome777 wrote: »
    please delete if this is not allowed

    https://en.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/9ldxg9/dublin_property_visualised/

    some guy and his mates put together a little map that shows some insight into how Airbnb is used to abuse the property market

    Wow, they're everywhere. The amount of them is ridiculous. I honestly didn't think it was that bad.
    Maybe because so many gombeens keep objecting to new hotels.


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    #444
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    robp wrote: »
    So looking at the map it seems that Airbnb is used in the core city centre where tourists want to stay and residents don't.

    Are you serious? Maybe not every one wants to live there but plenty do.
    robp wrote: »
    People making the planning argument against Airbnb are not proving any point apart from its possible illegality. Bad planning decisions are made all the time and there is no reason to assume that planning decisions against AirBnB are correct or help housing costs. If you really wanted to reduce housing costs the most direct way to do so is reduce the planning red tape and taxes that developers face. I am not against all regulation but there is a strong relationship between increased regulation and increased cost. It is shocking how people dont understand this.

    More housing stock for sale/rent will reduce prices. Whether that comes from increased building or former airbnb properties returned from the residential market doesn't matter. Obviously, returning these airbnb properties to the residential market isn't a magic bullet that will fix the crisis but it will help.


  • Options
    #445
    Sharktopus
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Sharktopus


    robp wrote: »
    So looking at the map it seems that Airbnb is used in the core city centre where tourists want to stay and residents don't.
    People making the planning argument against Airbnb are not proving any point apart from its possible illegality. Bad planning decisions are made all the time and there is no reason to assume that planning decisions against AirBnB are correct or help housing costs. If you really wanted to reduce housing costs the most direct way to do so is reduce the planning red tape and taxes that developers face. I am not against all regulation but there is a strong relationship between increased regulation and increased cost. It is shocking how people dont understand this.

    Lots of people want to live in the city centre. We have a young workforce, these are exactly the kind of places they would like to live. Plus a city functions better if people live in it.

    Planning decisions against Airbnb and other short term lets are based on them materially changing the nature of the property from residential to commercial.

    In the case of short term lets, the regulation is in place and supported by case law going back over 20 years (mcmahon v dublin city council). What has become an issue is the inability of it to be enforced. Indications are that the new legislation will put the onus on the platforms to ensure that properties they advertise are available legally. But we'll see how that turns out.


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    #446
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    robp wrote: »
    So looking at the map it seems that Airbnb is used in the core city centre where tourists want to stay and residents don't.

    Are you serious? Maybe not every one wants to live there but plenty do.
    robp wrote: »
    People making the planning argument against Airbnb are not proving any point apart from its possible illegality. Bad planning decisions are made all the time and there is no reason to assume that planning decisions against AirBnB are correct or help housing costs. If you really wanted to reduce housing costs the most direct way to do so is reduce the planning red tape and taxes that developers face. I am not against all regulation but there is a strong relationship between increased regulation and increased cost. It is shocking how people dont understand this.

    More housing stock for sale/rent will reduce prices. Whether that comes from increased building or former airbnb properties returned from the residential market doesn't matter. Obviously, returning these airbnb properties to the residential market isn't a magic bullet that will fix the crisis but it will help.

    People should have a right to right use their spare houses as they please, within reason. This airbnb ban is simply about putting one special interest group above others airbnb users (many of whom who don't get to vote). It is corrupt and value less politics.


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    #447
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Sharktopus wrote: »
    robp wrote: »
    So looking at the map it seems that Airbnb is used in the core city centre where tourists want to stay and residents don't.
    People making the planning argument against Airbnb are not proving any point apart from its possible illegality. Bad planning decisions are made all the time and there is no reason to assume that planning decisions against AirBnB are correct or help housing costs. If you really wanted to reduce housing costs the most direct way to do so is reduce the planning red tape and taxes that developers face. I am not against all regulation but there is a strong relationship between increased regulation and increased cost. It is shocking how people dont understand this.

    Lots of people want to live in the city centre. We have a young workforce, these are exactly the kind of places they would like to live. Plus a city functions better if people live in it.

    Planning decisions against Airbnb and other short term lets are based on them materially changing the nature of the property from residential to commercial.

    In the case of short term lets, the regulation is in place and supported by case law going back over 20 years (mcmahon v dublin city council).  What has become an issue is the inability of it to be enforced. Indications are that the new legislation will put the onus on the platforms to ensure that properties they advertise are available legally. But we'll see how that turns out.
    As I said, legality aside Minister Harris and all the other special pleaders here have not made a case, let alone a convincing one.


  • Options
    #448
    chocolateair
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭chocolateair


    Twenty Grand wrote: »


    We have a huge problem in this country where 80% of the population own their houses. So the 20% who rent get shafted time and again. I'm a firm believer that the rental crisis has been manufactured by the government restricting supply to get people out of negative equity.
    Ownership rates are significantly lower now. Census 2016 showed 67% ownership nationwide and just under 60% in urban areas.


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    #449
    utmbuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭utmbuilder


    from the comments on here a lot of you landlords don't like following the ol rules


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    #450
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,348 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    robp wrote: »
    So looking at the map it seems that Airbnb is used in the core city centre where tourists want to stay and residents don't

    Ehhh, I live in the core city centre as do thousands of others. It seems a terribly Irish mentality to assume people don't want to live there. But again, that's what the residential units there are for. They are not hotels.


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    #451
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭serfboard


    robp wrote: »
    So looking at the map it seems that Airbnb is used in the core city centre where tourists want to stay and residents don't.
    And your evidence for that is what, exactly?
    robp wrote: »
    reduce the planning red tape and taxes that developers face
    Yes indeed - we need to reduce regulations and taxes for property developers. :rolleyes:


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