Rifle problem

Keith2828

Hi just looking for advice my rifle is zeroed correctly but the 1st shot through a cold barrel is always off when stalking obviously the first shot can mean all or nothing all the other shots after the 1st are on the money any advice on this, i was told to zero on the 1st shot but what if i need a second shot it will be the same problem as well the rifle will be off any advice really appreciated cheers

deeksofdoom

Keith2828 wrote: »

Hi just looking for advice my rifle is zeroed correctly but the 1st shot through a cold barrel is always off when stalking obviously the first shot can mean all or nothing all the other shots after the 1st are on the money any advice on this, i was told to zero on the 1st shot but what if i need a second shot it will be the same problem as well the rifle will be off any advice really appreciated cheers

Zero for the first shot and learn to aim off for the second ..... or reinvest.

cookimonster

How do you know your secound shot is on, is it a follow up shot or a shot at a latter time? Are you reproduceing the same shooting scenario from the first to secound shot, is there continuity?

Could be one of two things:

Are you by any chance cleaning the barrel after zeroing or each outing? Some rifles don't like a squeaky clean barrel and will settle back to zero after a foweling shot or two.
Zero your rifle, test it on a cold bore shot and leave it at that. You don't need to be cleaning the barrel during a normal deer stalking season.

Ensure your zeroing or confirming zero at 100 yards as anything less can increase zero error at distance, so you think your on at 25 or 50 yards and therefore at 100, but a fraction out at the shorter distance is magnified at further ranges.

There's also buck fever, nothing like a miss to calm you down. If I had a deer for all the easy shots I missed (usually have 'em in the oven before I squeeze one off) my gout would be worse. Rush of sh#t to the head for close in 'sitters' while for the long pokes we tend to be more methodical...

garv123

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Zero for the first shot and learn to aim off for the second ..... or reinvest.

It would take a long time to zero a rifle with a cold barrel?
Fire one shot, wait a few hours, adjust and fire a second, repeat again? or bring ice to put over the barrel?

Vegeta

garv123 wrote: »

It would take a long time to zero a rifle with a cold barrel?
Fire one shot, wait a few hours, adjust and fire a second, repeat again? or bring ice to put over the barrel?

In fairness, many people map their cold bore shot and may adjust between sessions so they have an idea of where the cold bore will impact.

Saying that, my first question OP, is how far off are we talking here? Fractions of an inch or many inches?

Gravelly

cookimonster wrote: »

How do you know your secound shot is on, is it a follow up shot or a shot at a latter time? Are you reproduceing the same shooting scenario from the first to secound shot, is there continuity?

Could be one of two things:

Are you by any chance cleaning the barrel after zeroing or each outing? Some rifles don't like a squeaky clean barrel and will settle back to zero after a foweling shot or two.
Zero your rifle, test it on a cold bore shot and leave it at that. You don't need to be cleaning the barrel during a normal deer stalking season.

I've found this to be the case for me as well - the first shot or three from my rifle with a clean barrel can go anywhere. After cleaning the barrel I always shoot off a full magazine before zeroing it properly.

Keith2828

cookimonster wrote: »

How do you know your secound shot is on, is it a follow up shot or a shot at a latter time? Are you reproduceing the same shooting scenario from the first to secound shot, is there continuity?

Could be one of two things:

Are you by any chance cleaning the barrel after zeroing or each outing? Some rifles don't like a squeaky clean barrel and will settle back to zero after a foweling shot or two.
Zero your rifle, test it on a cold bore shot and leave it at that. You don't need to be cleaning the barrel during a normal deer stalking season.

Ensure your zeroing or confirming zero at 100 yards as anything less can increase zero error at distance, so you think your on at 25 or 50 yards and therefore at 100, but a fraction out at the shorter distance is magnified at further ranges.

There's also buck fever, nothing like a miss to calm you down. If I had a deer for all the easy shots I missed (usually have 'em in the oven before I squeeze one off) my gout would be worse. Rush of sh#t to the head for close in 'sitters' while for the long pokes we tend to be more methodical...

Yes its a follow up shot out stalking and the pricket i took i shot 1st and it missed i was 100% sure i was on the money but wasn't as he didn't flinch so quickly placed the second shot in the boiler room was clean kill but placed the first shot the exact same way i took this as possible buck fever.none the less was out the following week took the 8 pointer with follow up shot again the first missed again with cold barrel same again clean kill heart shot i was totally relaxed on first and second shot so i take this to be the rifle and not shooter im not new to shooting so i know my way around firearms under pressure, my next step is to go to the range before im back out in the field

cookimonster

I don't know man, the only thing I can say is to agree with you and punch holes in some paper, but do it as close to field conditions as you can.

garv123

Keith2828 wrote: »

Yes its a follow up shot out stalking and the pricket i took i shot 1st and it missed i was 100% sure i was on the money but wasn't as he didn't flinch so quickly placed the second shot in the boiler room was clean kill but placed the first shot the exact same way i took this as possible buck fever.none the less was out the following week took the 8 pointer with follow up shot again the first missed again with cold barrel same again clean kill heart shot i was totally relaxed on first and second shot so i take this to be the rifle and not shooter im not new to shooting so i know my way around firearms under pressure, my next step is to go to the range before im back out in the field

Ive heard of a cold barrel being out by a small amount, but never enough to make a person miss a chest sized target of a deer. Something isnt right there..

Fire at paper at 50 yards with a cold barrel and fire a follow up shot straight after.

Cass

A few details that would help.

• Rifle make
• Caliber
• Twist rate
• Bullet Weight
• Scope details
• Rings
• Bipod or not
• Factory standard or customised (bedded, floated barrel, etc)
• How far out is the cold bore shot
• What distance(s) are you shooting at (average)

Some rifles, in fact quite a few, shoot the cold bore shot "off" and then tighten up as the group progresses. However if you're missing to the extent you say then it's a problem and not just an issue as the cold bore shot should be close to the actual group.

The reason for the above request for as many details as possible is so we can narrow down the issues and eliminate them, thus leaving the remaining factor(s) as the likely cause.

When something like this happens my first thought is always the action screws. Action screws can cause wild variations in POI. It's not enough to make sure they're tight, but that they are torqued correctly. One screw too tight or a little loose will allow the action "movement" within the stock.

Same with scope crews, ring screws etc. They may appear tight if checked by hand, but unless they are torqued with a proper wrench then it's only assumption.

Twist rate, barrel and bullet weight are all interconnected. It's a long shot, but there could be something there is the above is ok.

As for the scope, i once had a scope that would "jump". The crosshairs would move slightly, putting the POI off compared to the POA. It did not happen every shot, and unlikely given the grouping of the second shot on, but something to look at.

juice1304

garv123 wrote: »

It would take a long time to zero a rifle with a cold barrel?
Fire one shot, wait a few hours, adjust and fire a second, repeat again? or bring ice to put over the barrel?

It doesn't take that long you only have to wait a matter of minutes for the barrel to become cool enough that the change of impact returns to normal and its simple to sight in a barrel with three rounds if you measure and adjust.
Bore sight the barrel by looking through the barrel, Fire first round when its on paper measure adjust fire the second round for any small adjustment needed and then fire a third to confirm.

pm.

cookimonster wrote: »

How do you know your secound shot is on, is it a follow up shot or a shot at a latter time? Are you reproduceing the same shooting scenario from the first to secound shot, is there continuity?

Could be one of two things:

Are you by any chance cleaning the barrel after zeroing or each outing? Some rifles don't like a squeaky clean barrel and will settle back to zero after a foweling shot or two.
Zero your rifle, test it on a cold bore shot and leave it at that. You don't need to be cleaning the barrel during a normal deer stalking season.

...

Have to agree with this point, a lot of lads either use a pull through or clean the barrel after every outing.... It's really not needed, whatever about cleaning the outside of the barrel and stock. I only clean the.308 after around 200 shots

Richard308

Just a quick one is the rifle old? Barrel shot out? 220 Swift are notorious barrel eaters. I think the chances are not cold barrel. Loose action, rings. Oh you’re not resting barrel on rest and then putting stock on rest for next shot? Or vice versa. That will vary poi by margin you’re talking about

Damoeire33

Might be the action needs bedding, on first shot the recoil sets the lug back firm so second shot is on the mark, as Cass says above check the action screws.

juice1304

pm. wrote: »

Have to agree with this point, a lot of lads either use a pull through or clean the barrel after every outing.... It's really not needed, whatever about cleaning the outside of the barrel and stock. I only clean the.308 after around 200 shots

If you don't remove the carbon at least that will attract moisture and will cause pitting in the barrel.. So a quick pull through is perfect between actually cleaning with a solvent. it takes 10 seconds at best and will affect the life of the barrel dramatically.

Keith2828

Cass wrote: »

A few details that would help.

• Rifle make
• Caliber
• Twist rate
• Bullet Weight
• Scope details
• Rings
• Bipod or not
• Factory standard or customised (bedded, floated barrel, etc)
• How far out is the cold bore shot
• What distance(s) are you shooting at (average)

Some rifles, in fact quite a few, shoot the cold bore shot "off" and then tighten up as the group progresses. However if you're missing to the extent you say then it's a problem and not just an issue as the cold bore shot should be close to the actual group.

The reason for the above request for as many details as possible is so we can narrow down the issues and eliminate them, thus leaving the remaining factor(s) as the likely cause.

When something like this happens my first thought is always the action screws. Action screws can cause wild variations in POI. It's not enough to make sure they're tight, but that they are torqued correctly. One screw too tight or a little loose will allow the action "movement" within the stock.

Same with scope crews, ring screws etc. They may appear tight if checked by hand, but unless they are torqued with a proper wrench then it's only assumption.

Twist rate, barrel and bullet weight are all interconnected. It's a long shot, but there could be something there is the above is ok.

As for the scope, i once had a scope that would "jump". The crosshairs would move slightly, putting the POI off compared to the POA. It did not happen every shot, and unlikely given the grouping of the second shot on, but something to look at.

Thanks ill have to pick up a torque wrench or something to check that were would i find the correct pressure of torque the rifle is brand new only about 200 rounds gone through it roughly its 243 tikka t3 hunter 1.12 twist as far as i know with burris four x 3-12×56 the rounds im using are fedral 100g

Cass

Keith2828 wrote: »

Thanks ill have to pick up a torque wrench or something to check that were would i find the correct pressure of torque.......

The general consensus is:

• Wood stock rifle with floating lug: 35 inch-lbs
• Wood stock, bedded or unbedded but without pillars: 40-45 inch-lbs
• Wood stock rifle, pillar bedded: 55-60 inch-lbs
• Laminate stock rifle, bedded or unbedded but without pillars: 40-45 inch-lbs
• Laminate pillar bedded rifle: 55-60 inch-lbs

I listed all timber stocks as i assume the Hunter model is timber, but not sure it's its solid timber or laminate.

DO NOT exceed the max for whichever is applicable to your rifle. You may damage the stock.

its 243 tikka t3 hunter 1.12 twist as far as i know

You might want to check. Most 243s are 1:10 or 1:9 coming from the factory. Tikka mostly goes with 1:10.

With this being the case you might want to try two things:

1. Lighter rounds than the 100gr as this would be the at the limit for a 1:10 twist. Something in 75gr to 95gr mark.
2. While Federal are usually consistent rounds try something with ballistic tip (BT).

A few examples to try:

• Federal 80gr SP
• Federal 70gr Nosler tip
• Hornady 80gr GMX
• Fiocchi 95gr SST
• Hornady 95gr SST
• Remington 80gr PSP

Keith2828

Cass wrote: »

The general consensus is:

• Wood stock rifle with floating lug: 35 inch-lbs
• Wood stock, bedded or unbedded but without pillars: 40-45 inch-lbs
• Wood stock rifle, pillar bedded: 55-60 inch-lbs
• Laminate stock rifle, bedded or unbedded but without pillars: 40-45 inch-lbs
• Laminate pillar bedded rifle: 55-60 inch-lbs

I listed all timber stocks as i assume the Hunter model is timber, but not sure it's its solid timber or laminate.

DO NOT exceed the max for whichever is applicable to your rifle. You may damage the stock.


You might want to check. Most 243s are 1:10 or 1:9 coming from the factory. Tikka mostly goes with 1:10.

With this being the case you might want to try two things:

1. Lighter rounds than the 100gr as this would be the at the limit for a 1:10 twist. Something in 75gr to 95gr mark.
2. While Federal are usually consistent rounds try something with ballistic tip (BT).

A few examples to try:

• Federal 80gr SP
• Federal 70gr Nosler tip
• Hornady 80gr GMX
• Fiocchi 95gr SST
• Hornady 95gr SST
• Remington 80gr PSP

Cheers really appreciate everyone's input its a solid timber stock with floating lug i more so just stuck to the fedral 100g purely the fact the rounds were more consistent compared to Winchester an i think your right its 1:10 twist ill drop the grain and do all above an let yous know how i get on thank you

garv123

Keith2828 wrote: »

Cheers really appreciate everyone's input its a solid timber stock with floating lug i more so just stuck to the fedral 100g purely the fact the rounds were more consistent compared to Winchester an i think your right its 1:10 twist ill drop the grain and do all above an let yous know how i get on thank you

100gr federal seems to be one of the most popular ammo around here for the .243. is the gun grouping on paper if you fire 5 shots? is it just the first shot thats off?

How long is the issue going on? did anything change recently? eg had the stock off, changed mod or scope.

ejg

Not sure where you are from, if you were coming through Cork at some stage we are close to Kinsale and could have a quick look at your rifle. 243 Tikkas should shoot well.
edi

Keith2828

garv123 wrote: »

100gr federal seems to be one of the most popular ammo around here for the .243. is the gun grouping on paper if you fire 5 shots? is it just the first shot thats off?

How long is the issue going on? did anything change recently? eg had the stock off, changed mod or scope.

It was grouping on paper pre season i had it zeroed the weekend of start season but obviously something wrong ill head to the range sunday see whats happening i haven't changed anything since i zeroed it

Keith2828

ejg wrote: »

Not sure where you are from, if you were coming through Cork at some stage we are close to Kinsale and could have a quick look at your rifle. 243 Tikkas should shoot well.
edi

Im in Dublin thank you ill be out sunday and see can i source the problem

tikkamark

Have you checked the barrel is totally free floating ie right to the end of the action,i have a supervarmint.243 and I’ve free floated it and what a difference it made to accuracy.
I’d agree with the fact 100gr rounds are right at the upper limit of stability in the barrel try 95gr as the max and it will be more stable

Cass

Did ya get a chance to check any of this yet?

Keith2828

Cass wrote: »

Did ya get a chance to check any of this yet?

Unfortunately i haven't had the chance to gwt out yet due to work but as soon as its on paper i will post the results

Keith2828

Finally got it on paper unfortunately have to put my tail between my legs an put it down to buck fever as much as i hate to admit it i done 3 separate groups of 3 rounds all were tight grouped 1inch high of the bull prior to the range i did tighten stock screws which were actually slightly loose and i loosened the pressure on the trigger as it was a small bit stiff which i think could possibly have me shooting higher on the 2 shots i missed taking into consideration of the buck fever ;/
Thanks for all the help anyway.

tac foley

The general consensus is:

Wood stock rifle with floating lug: 35 inch-lbs
Wood stock, bedded or unbedded but without pillars: 40-45 inch-lbs
Wood stock rifle, pillar bedded: 55-60 inch-lbs
Laminate stock rifle, bedded or unbedded but without pillars: 40-45 inch-lbs
Laminate pillar bedded rifle: 55-60 inch-lbs

I listed all timber stocks as i assume the Hunter model is timber, but not sure it's its solid timber or laminate.

DO NOT exceed the max for whichever is applicable to your rifle. You may damage the stock.

Needs to be made into a sticky, IMO.