Deontay Wilder v Tyson Fury - December 1st

Ultimate Seduction

Draw

The difference between a clean unconscious KO is more to do with where the punch lands on the jaw, how many big shots has the fighter taken already how many times has he been KOd before ect. There a lot of variables. Impossible to compare power unless both men punch some kind of machine to detect velocity

Ultimate Seduction

Draw

The difference between a clean unconscious KO is more to do with where the punch lands on the jaw, how many big shots has the fighter taken already how many times has he been KOd before ect. There a lot of variables. Impossible to compare power unless both men punch some kind of machine to detect velocity

walshb

Wilder Points

One criteria that I hear a lot is level of opposition.

Folks usually throw out that "he has fought nobody" and this lad had has fought better opposition.

But "better" opposition does't necessarily mean better durability or better chins...

This criteria needs analysis as it can be flawed, and can be both a positive and negative when you dig deep.

Example: Fighter A fights a man with 50 fights and 30 losses. A journeyman. Of the 30 losses he's never been knocked out or dropped. May have had some TKO losses due to accumulation. Fighter A goes in and drops him and hurts him and stops him, or KOs him...Is this a positive or negative?

If you compare this above example to fighter B who fights a real rated fighter, but said rated fighter has been dropped and stopped and knocked out during some losses....Fighter B stops him.....but, sure hasn't he already been stopped? Isn't he a bit chinny and lacking in durability....they are the angles people could use....

See, this type analysis can be flawed

Best to look at common opponents. It's a little safer and a little less flawed.

walshb

Wilder Points

ASOT wrote: »

They both fought Molina. Wilder KO in the 9th, Joshua TKO in the 3rd.

.

Just watched both....

AJ in rd 3 when Molina was a lot fresher. Really hurt him and dropped him with heavy shots.

Wilder did it against a far more tired Molina in rd 9.

So, as much as common opponents is something to consider, it, like some other criteria can be argued and can be "flawed."

yourdeadwright

Draw

walshb wrote: »

Just watched both....

AJ in rd 3 when Molina was a lot fresher. Really hurt him and dropped him with heavy shots.

Wilder did it against a far more tired Molina in rd 9.

So, as much as common opponents is something to consider, it, like some other criteria can be argued and can be "flawed."

Styles make fights ,

Arreloa ko'd Moinla in the 1st when Molina he was in his athletic prime does that mean he hits harder or is better than both Wilder and Aj ? nope it doesn't

walshb

Wilder Points

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Styles make fights ,

Arreloa ko'd Moinla in the 1st when Molina he was in his athletic prime does that mean he hits harder or is better than both Wilder and Aj ? nope it doesn't

Now you're talking.....your post is exactly what I am talking about. Discussing and giving arguments.

Like it has been said....many variables and arguments can be presented.....

The real answer lies in a test on a machine that measures force generated....

Other than this it's all debate and discussion and what ifs and this that and the other.....

The flat out claim from either side (in this debate) is lazy!

Take Tyson, Liston, Foreman, Wilder, Lewis, Joshua for example....

One could argue for all them..

I do believe that when all things are "somewhat" equal, then physical weight and size will be important.

Like AJ being 250 lbs vs. Liston at just over 200 lbs. Both very good technical hitters. My money is on AJ generating more force. His 30 + lbs weight advantage could be the key

AJ vs. Tyson? 30 lbs weight advantage, but Tyson's delivery speed and technique may be that bit to allow him genarte equal or more force than AJ....

Another interesting one is with Foreman vs the others. Foreman had that thudding heavy effortless power/force, but a little slow with delivery. Numbing/dull power. Hard to know if his power would generate as much force as say Lewis' or Tyson's or AJs or Wilder's..

It's a great topic, just not easily proved.

yourdeadwright

Draw

walshb wrote: »

Now you're talking.....your post is exactly what I am talking about. Discussing and giving arguments.

Like it has been said....many variables and arguments can be presented.....

The real answer lies in a test on a machine that measures force generated....

Other than this it's all debate and discussion and what ifs and this that and the other.....

The flat out claim from either side (in this debate) is lazy!

Take Tyson, Liston, Foreman, Wilder, Lewis, Joshua for example....

One could argue for all them..

I do believe that when all things are "somewhat" equal, then physical weight and size will be important.

Like AJ being 250 lbs vs. Liston at just over 200 lbs. Both very good technical hitters. My money is on AJ generating more force. His 30 + lbs weight advantage could be the key

AJ vs. Tyson? 30 lbs weight advantage, but Tyson's delivery speed and technique may be that bit to allow him genarte equal or more force than AJ....

It's a great topic, just not easily proved.

Very true so many variables, it would be impossible to see to guess without testing it out,

But I would say when you watch fights its hard to recall anyone having so many one shot KO's as Wilder but again maybe its competition he has faced,
Also it may not be just power , it could be the angle of his shots are coming from and connecting on the head, it could be guys not seeing them ,as you said there are so many variables

walshb

Wilder Points

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Very true so many variables, it would be impossible to see to guess without testing it out,

But I would say when you watch fights its hard to recall anyone having so many one shot KO's as Wilder but again maybe its competition he has faced,
Also it may not be just power , it could be the angle of his shots are coming from and connecting on the head, it could be guys not seeing them ,as you said there are so many variables

Exactly.....no matter what criteria you use you can find positives and negatives with it

A good broad range of criteria is best to use, and still it's all just educated speculation and guessing.....

Did you get to watch the chopping right hand from Wilder? Just my view, but it seemed to be a good shot, not great. I have seen Wilder connecting heavier and cleaner before.....I wonder if the point of contact was the issue? It seemed to snap Fury's head from the side....

The follow up left hook, although not great and not "correct" still played a part...

Listening to the commentary they didn't mention this shot being "incorrect" as regards how it landed.....these things should be picked up by professional commentators...

yourdeadwright

Draw

walshb wrote: »

Exactly.....no matter what criteria you use you can find positives and negatives with it

A good broad range of criteria is best to use, and still it's all just educated speculation and guessing.....

Did you get to watch the chopping right hand from Wilder? Just my view, but it seemed to be a good shot, not great. I have seen Wilder connecting heavier and cleaner before.....I wonder if the point of contact was the issue? It seemed to snap Fury's head from the side....

The follow up left hook, although not great and not "correct" still played a part...

Listening to the commentary they didn't mention this shot being "incorrect" as regards how it landed.....these things should be picked up by professional commentators...

I think tiredness played a huge part in how it dropped Fury , I seen an interview with his old man who said from 9 on he could tell Tyson was running in fumes but he hide it well

I didn't really watch it back but did you notice if Fury was moving into it when it landed ?

Strangely enough I wonder did the left hook help Fury , sometimes when you take a massive concussive punch the next one wakes you up a bit,

walshb

Wilder Points

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I didn't really watch it back but did you notice if Fury was moving into it when it landed ?

I mentioned this in a previous post. Yes, Fury kind of took some of the sting away from it.....

Fury was tired too, so that could have been a factor......

Fury's best attribute I think is more his ability to ride with a punch. Kind of Ali like

His overall D is good, but nothing great. He relies a bit much on the same sort of thing......and it cost him in rd 12. The low ducking down time and time...

In other words I'd be concerned for him throughout. How long can he "get" away with it type feeling.......

That's why if I had real confidence in his chin I'd give him a real chance....

normanoffside

Draw

Just one way to look at one punch punching power is by comparing TKO to KO ratio.

So of Wilder's knockouts 18 of 39 were by KO=46%
Joshua: 4/21 = 19%

Just for Comparison:
Mike Tyson was 14/44= 32%
Lennox Lewis was: 11/32 = 34%

walshb

Wilder Points

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Strangely enough I wonder did the left hook help Fury , sometimes when you take a massive concussive punch the next one wakes you up a bit,

Very true.

I made a similar point that maybe the fall and canvas helped snap him back, but to some that was me not wanting to credit his chin/recuperative powers. You can't win.....it was just a point/observation...

walshb

Wilder Points

normanoffside wrote: »

Just one way to look at one punch punching power is by comparing TKO to KO ratio.

So of Wilder's knockouts 18 of 39 were by KO=46%
Joshua: 4/21 = 19%

Just for Comparison:
Mike Tyson was 14/44= 32%
Lennox Lewis was: 11/32 = 34%

That is a comparison you can use, but it requires digging into and analyzing along with loads of other criteria....they all need to be assessed together......and still nothing can be proved....

Plus this listing of KO and TKO, as you well know can be very much open to interpretation...

You can only really be sure, or somewhat sure when the two you are comparing show a clear difference in "visual" power. Like comparing Wilder to Parker or to Chisora. From what I have seen I would be quite confident that Wilder hits harder...

It gets so much trickier when the two you are comparing both are hitting very hard, ala AJ and Wilder, or Lewis and Tyson, for example...

walshb

Wilder Points

The Drago machine is the way to go.

Straight up, no way I would bet on either AJ or Wilder with any degree of certainty..

Gun to head I may pick AJ, and what would sway me (along with other criteria) is the 30 lbs weight advantage, as well as him having IMO a better punch delivery/technique.....

flatty

For me, the salient point in the generally futile Joshua vs wilder punching power is that if either man catches the other with a clean hard shot, it is likely to be fight ending. Further drilling down is kind of irrelevant.

yourdeadwright

Draw

walshb wrote: »

That is a comparison you can use, but it requires digging into and analyzing along with loads of other criteria....they all need to be assessed together......and still nothing can be proved....

Plus this listing of KO and TKO, as you well know can be very much open to interpretation...

You can only really be sure, or somewhat sure when the two you are comparing show a clear difference in "visual" power. Like comparing Wilder to Parker or to Chisora. From what I have seen I would be quite confident that Wilder hits harder...

It gets so much trickier when the two you are comparing both are hitting very hard, ala AJ and Wilder, or Lewis and Tyson, for example...

I do agree but weather its power or whatever its becoming clear Wilder can flat line anyone with one shot,

Iv never seen anything like him before , he does it ever fight and in every round,

Its not even a case of can a fighter take his shot they simply can't , you just have to pray to not get caught,

normanoffside

Draw

walshb wrote: »

That is a comparison you can use, but it requires digging into and analyzing along with loads of other criteria....they all need to be assessed together......and still nothing can be proved....

Plus this listing of KO and TKO, as you well know can be very much open to interpretation...

You can only really be sure, or somewhat sure when the two you are comparing show a clear difference in "visual" power. Like comparing Wilder to Parker or to Chisora. From what I have seen I would be quite confident that Wilder hits harder...

It gets so much trickier when the two you are comparing both are hitting very hard, ala AJ and Wilder, or Lewis and Tyson, for example...

Yes there are definitely a lot of variables but nonetheless it’s a statistic that can be taken into account and used to back up the assertion that wilder is the bigger puncher.

I do feel Wilder has the biggest one punch knockout power in the HW division today and given his light frame and size of opponents he is facing, this probably translates to him being the biggest lb for lb puncher too.

walshb

Wilder Points

flatty wrote: »

For me, the salient point in the generally futile Joshua vs wilder punching power is that if either man catches the other with a clean hard shot, it is likely to be fight ending. Further drilling down is kind of irrelevant.

Yes, but this is a boxing forum for discussion. I like in-depth and interesting debate around the sport......that's just me.

MD1990

walshb wrote: »

One criteria that I hear a lot is level of opposition.

Folks usually throw out that "he has fought nobody" and this lad had has fought better opposition.

But "better" opposition does't necessarily mean better durability or better chins...

This criteria needs analysis as it can be flawed, and can be both a positive and negative when you dig deep.

Example: Fighter A fights a man with 50 fights and 30 losses. A journeyman. Of the 30 losses he's never been knocked out or dropped. May have had some TKO losses due to accumulation. Fighter A goes in and drops him and hurts him and stops him, or KOs him...Is this a positive or negative?

If you compare this above example to fighter B who fights a real rated fighter, but said rated fighter has been dropped and stopped and knocked out during some losses....Fighter B stops him.....but, sure hasn't he already been stopped? Isn't he a bit chinny and lacking in durability....they are the angles people could use....

See, this type analysis can be flawed

Best to look at common opponents. It's a little safer and a little less flawed.

It usually does.

Many of the top fighters are much better conditioned.
Having stronger leg & neck muscles in particular will help you stay up.

For instance Stiverne should a much better chin in the 1st fight against Wilder as he was in better shape.

walshb

Wilder Points

MD1990 wrote: »

It usually does.

Many of the top fighters are much better conditioned.
Having stronger leg & neck muscles in particular will help you stay up.

For instance Stiverne should a much better chin in the 1st fight against Wilder as he was in better shape.

That is why I said it needs looking into

Here's one.....

Many journeymen are just that because they have that durability, toughness and chin to get in there and allow up and coming prospects to get rds in and test themselves....

A man is a man is a man......head, body, legs and arms. Chins.......

Talent and skills are sometimes separate.....you still have to KO the man, regardless of his talent or skill or good or bad record...

Looking at opposition is a criteria. Not saying that it isn't; I am saying that it can be argued for and against, and it needs research, and needs to be taken into account with other criteria....

walshb

Wilder Points

One other criteria, if you can call it this is what a particular fighter says about the power of his opponents...

When asked who hits harder......do we always believe in their answers?

It all depends on the fight and what happened in the fight, and how the fighter's standing may look or be perceived depending on his answer...

In this example: Let's say Fury fights AJ and AJ knocks him clean out or clean enough out; KO/TKO

He is then asked who hits harder, AJ or Wilder? Who does he say?

I know who I think.....Wilder. A, because he may want to spite AJ, and B because it keeps his profile up and his amazing achievement up as regards his getting up from Wilder's shot to finish the fight and almost get the win.

He says AJ hits harder, and he may be thinking that folks will forget his amazing bounce back v Wilder, or turn around and say, ah, sure the Wilder shot wasn't all that great after all....

It's human nature that a boxer will answer a certain way. Not a criticism, just an observation....

In my experience usually a fighter will lean with the fight where he did the best, or may have won, or come back from a pasting to win....

Example: Holmes was asked who hit harder, Shavers or Tyson,. No hesitation. He said Shavers. Of course he did....because vs. Shavers he miraculously got up and beat the count and won the fight. It's a lot better sounding than what happened vs. Tyson, where he was banjoed.

I suppose the other point here is that no matter what they answer, it can't be definitively proven (in all cases) who hits harder anyway.

yourdeadwright

Draw

walshb wrote: »

One other criteria, if you can call it this is what a particular fighter says about the power of his opponents...

When asked who hits harder......do we always believe in their answers?

It all depends on the fight and what happened in the fight, and how the fighter's standing may look or be perceived depending on his answer...

In this example: Let's say Fury fights AJ and AJ knocks him clean out or clean enough out; KO/TKO

He is then asked who hits harder, AJ or Wilder? Who does he say?

I know who I think.....Wilder. A, because he may want to spite AJ, and B because it keeps his profile up and his amazing achievement up as regards his getting up from Wilder's shot to finish the fight and almost get the win.

He says AJ hits harder, and he may be thinking that folks will forget his amazing bounce back v Wilder, or turn around and say, ah, sure the Wilder shot wasn't all that great after all....

It's human nature that a boxer will answer a certain way. Not a criticism, just an observation....

In my experience usually a fighter will lean with the fight where he did the best, or may have won, or come back from a pasting to win....

Example: Holmes was asked who hit harder, Shavers or Tyson,. No hesitation. He said Shavers. Of course he did....because vs. Shavers he miraculously got up and beat the count and won the fight. It's a lot better sounding than what happened vs. Tyson, where he was banjoed.

I suppose the other point here is that no matter what they answer, it can't be definitively proven (in all cases) who hits harder anyway.

All of the above is true but would you not think its looks like Wilder is by far the hardest one punch hitter in boxing ?

Without going down the testing route , I cant really see an argument against him , No one else even come close at the moment,

walshb

Wilder Points

yourdeadwright wrote: »

All of the above is true but would you not think its looks like Wilder is by far the hardest one punch hitter in boxing ?

Without going down the testing route , I cant really see an argument against him , No one else even come close at the moment,

I could definitely consider it...

But, as I said, gun to head and both are actually tested, I would probably side with AJ.....and what would sway me is a combination of the clear weight advantage he has, his technique and his feet/positioning. He is not just 30 lbs heavier, but 30 lbs of solid effectiveness heavier....it's not just the 30 lbs as in the figure. It's how he carries it and how it distributed and how his punches/mechanics use it.

yourdeadwright

Draw

walshb wrote: »

I could definitely consider it...

But, as I said, gun to head and both are actually tested, I would probably side with AJ.....and what would sway me is a combination of the clear weight advantage he has, his technique and his feet/positioning. He is not just 30 lbs heavier, but 30 lbs of solid effectiveness heavier....it's not just the 30 lbs as in the figure. It's how he carries it and how it distributed and how his punches/mechanics use it.

WOW really ?
I don't think it'll be even close, I think your all wrong ,

Aj is very muscular and muscle doesn't have that much effect on punching power as people think,
AJ may throw certain shots harder than Wilder but for that one punch hardest hit id bet my house its Wilder ,

My personal opinion its the speed of Wilder's right hand and leverage due to his frames that Aj can not replicate ,

AJ hits hard but its like getting hit with a hammer , now give that hammer a longer handle and that's Wilder,
It travels quicker so its force and impact is harder,

Nearly every Wilder KO is one shot , AJ hits hard that he stuns people and then a number of shots to finish the job ,

Morrison J

Wilder Points

pac_man wrote: »

We've no way of watching the american stuff so I think it's ok if you post the site.

http://boxingfights.ucoz.com/

And as I said before, adblocker is your friend..

walshb

Wilder Points

yourdeadwright wrote: »

WOW really ?
I don't think it'll be even close, I think your all wrong ,

Aj is very muscular and muscle doesn't have that much effect on punching power as people think,
AJ may throw certain shots harder than Wilder but for that one punch hardest hit id bet my house its Wilder ,

My personal opinion its the speed of Wilder's right hand and leverage due to his frames that Aj can not replicate ,

AJ hits hard but its like getting hit with a hammer , now give that hammer a longer handle and that's Wilder,
It travels quicker so its force and impact is harder,

Nearly every Wilder KO is one shot , AJ hits hard that he stuns people and then a number of shots to finish the job ,

Physics is important here......

30 lbs is a lot when you consider the men involved. It's not 30 lbs heavier for a man who is an average hitter. It's 30 lbs for an already naturally heavy hitter...

Force impact is measured via a product of acceleration and mass. Weight is a key fundamental here....and then there is technique and delivery and feet, all three that AJ is very effective in...

It's a science that produces a result.

Of course, not every heavier man will produce higher results than lighter men....I know this, but here, I cannot overlook 30lbs as well as AJ and his punching delivery and technique....

Gun to head that would IMO be foolish of me.....

I reckon Wilder will generate more speed.....but the combination of speed and weight/mass will see AJ create more power/force.

yourdeadwright

Draw

walshb wrote: »

Physics is important here......

30 lbs is a lot when you consider the men involved. It's not 30 lbs heavier for a man who is an average hitter. It's 30 lbs for an already naturally heavy hitter...

Force impact is measured via a product of acceleration and mass. Weight is a key fundamental here....and then there is technique and delivery and feet, all three that AJ is very effective in...

It's a science that produces a result.

Of course, not every heavier man will produce higher results than lighter men....I know this, but here, I cannot overlook 30lbs as well as AJ and his punching delivery and technique....

Gun to head that would IMO be foolish of me.....

I reckon Wilder will generate more speed.....but the combination of speed and weight/mass will see AJ create more power/force.

I actually think your AJ love is effecting you here,

There are 100 heavy weight's heavier than Wilder who don't come close to his punching power, Some guys can just hit hard regardless of weight or height ,

Id go as far to day its delusional to think AJ hits harder than Wilder , everyone from trainers to fighters to pundits can see he is the hardest one shot hitter in the world right now ,

Morrison J

Wilder Points

walshb wrote: »

Physics is important here......

30 lbs is a lot when you consider the men involved. It's not 30 lbs heavier for a man who is an average hitter. It's 30 lbs for an already naturally heavy hitter...

Force impact is measured via a product of acceleration and mass. Weight is a key fundamental here....and then there is technique and delivery and feet, all three that AJ is very effective in...

It's a science that produces a result.

Of course, not every heavier man will produce higher results than lighter men....I know this, but here, I cannot overlook 30lbs as well as AJ and his punching delivery and technique....

Gun to head that would IMO be foolish of me.....

I reckon Wilder will generate more speed.....but the combination of speed and weight/mass will see AJ create more power/force.

You've to take into account some people are just naturally heavy handed though. Wilder is just a freak puncher.

Comparing both their resumes you'd have to think Wilder is the bigger puncher. Joshua realistically should've gone the distance with Takam if not for a trigger happy ref. Never had had him really hurt.

Wilder has hurt every single fighter he's faced. His one shot power is the best P4P in the sport I think.

walshb

Wilder Points

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I actually think your AJ love is effecting you here,

,

I'm out.....that is just ridiculous......I listed why I would pick AJ with criteria and you come back with this?

Let's replace AJ with Shavers or Lewis....

I reckon Shavers generates more force on his shots than Wilder. I don't love Shavers. Not one bit......

Lewis with his weight, size, right hand, and technique I reckon generates more power than Wilder. I don't love Lewis one bit.

And, Lewis I reckon generates more power than AJ......I think Lewis' combination of weight/size and technique just pip AJ

Lewis and his right hand hook/straight power shot for me is probably the heaviest shot of all them.

yourdeadwright

Draw

AJ hits hard no doubt but one shot ko power Wilder buy a mile

AJ = 4 ko's
Wilder = 17 ko's

There Ko's not TKO's