Wheel of Time (Amazon)

Fred Astaire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444849#Comment_118444849

Moiraine in the books is effectively used to get the Emonds Field Five out of the Two Rivers and towards the end of the book encourage them toward the Eye, after which she largely takes a backseat as one of Rand's advisors. She has significantly less page time in the first book than screentime in the show. In this show her role has been plumped up as they decided to have a relatively unimportant character be played by a well-known actress. From book 2 onwards (at least for a long time) I would describe her character as not important to the major developments of the story, barring an incident around the 1/3 of the way through the books.

Nynaeve and Egwene are in the books but have a substantially smaller part in the books than in the show to begin with. Their power level is also massively different. Nynaeve does have strong power from early on but much of it is kept gated by an emotional block she has built up - she only can access her real power when truly angry. Lots of wilders build up this strong emotional block.

Egwene is pretty much powerless and hasn't much to do in book 1. Her story starts to develop more as the books go on.

In this show they have decided to take in many instances, character definining moments from male characters and give them to female characters. What we are left with is like some form of girl power fan fiction as a fcuk you to men. Men can literally do nothing right and do not get to keep any moment of truimph from the books. Women are the best at everything and get all of the mens storylines as well as boosting their own power levels up almost a thousandfold.

It also cheapens the womens later story as things like Egwenes training and growth don't mean a thing now as she is already one of the most powerful people around.

If there was one thing the Wheel of Time did not need it was a greater showcase of female characters. The female characters in Wheel of Time are treated extremely well and showcased just as much as the male characters. To take the Wheel of Time of all books and attempt to adapt it into some sort of Tumblr fan fiction blatantly shows the agenda of those behind the scenes.

Need a Username

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444951#Comment_118444951

Okay. So they have taken a lot of liberties with the material. I can understand why fans of the books would not be pleased.

I don’t know if the changes would bother me if I had been a fan but my criticism of the show is that the villagers range from unlikeable to painful to behold. The sidekick warrior went from bland to interesting as the season progressed.

Moraine and the world itself will bring me back for more. However the villagers are going to have to improve.

“ In this show her role has been plumped up as they decided to have a relatively unimportant character be played by a well-known actress”

I don’t think you are correct there. Pike is a producer on the show (-and not an executive producer). Yes they obviously plumped up the role but Pike must have been on board the project early which lead to the role being made more significant. Maybe I’m being nit picky but I think it might be wrong to say the role was beefed to get big name as it seems more likely the big name wanted a part with more meat.

And I don’t want to start an argument but the whole “girl power/fcuk you to men” thing makes my eyes roll as much as cries for diversity & equality does. I have no desire to white male actors “dethroned” or whatever but more black, Asian, etc actors on screen is fine with me as it makes for a more interesting sight. And I have always wanted more women on screen in better roles than the girlfriend or the dead wife - not for equality of the sexes but because women are nice to look at. Rosamund Pike is a great actress, the character is interesting and she is nice to look at. So it it a change I am happy with.

Flinty997

I don't get the comments about Pikes role being pumped up. Her character is pivotal in the early books. That she is dominant is not unexpected.

Its that some of the other pivotal characters have been greatly diminished. Which utterly changes the story in weird ways.

Fred Astaire

And I don’t want to start an argument but the whole “girl power/fcuk you to men” thing makes my eyes roll as much as cries for diversity & equality does. I have no desire to white male actors “dethroned” or whatever but more black, Asian, etc actors on screen is fine with me as it makes for a more interesting sight. And I have always wanted more women on screen in better roles than the girlfriend or the dead wife - not for equality of the sexes but because women are nice to look at. Rosamund Pike is a great actress, the character is interesting and she is nice to look at. So it it a change I am happy with.

To be honest I don't care what makes your eyes roll. Many of us in this thread have been a fan of these books for upwards of 10/15/20/25 years. Rafe has without question done the things I and many others here have spoken about. It can only be as a feminist power fantasy as I have already noted that as fantasy series go, Wheel of Time gave women so much to do and so many moments to shine. To come along and add more is illustrative of the priorities of the creators.

This is not an adapatation of those books. This is using the names of characters in those books while writing a feminist power fantasy using the names of those characters.

I already made the point that there is plenty for women to do later in the story, indeed in some books women are the largest POV characters. But in season 1 they have literally taken major story elements from the men and given them to the women.

Perhaps your 'opinion of the villagers' would have been better if they were given some actual character development and allowed to keep hold of critical character moments from book 1.

Again, people have taken time to explain lots of things to you in this thread, from a collection of books that they loved. I wouldn't enter a thread about Harry Potter, if it were changed that Ginny was the one that faught Voldemort, and that Hermione individually destroyed all 7 of the horcruxes while Harry and Ron argued about her, and said that it was a good thing and was happy with it, and that I was tired of hearing complaints about it. It's incredibly obnoxious and arrogant.

Fred Astaire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445266#Comment_118445266

Rafe is on record as saying he has had to create original story for her in Season 2 as she has nothing much to do.

I would completely disagree with calling her pivotal. She is a tag-along character in Book 2 and 3 and follows Rand around while he occasionally accepts her advice after that.

Flinty997

Does BattleStar which I've not really watched do the same thing. I got the impression is was basically the same character (ish) just happened to be a woman, thus not really changing the story.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445349#Comment_118445349

Well she rescues the main characters a few times, they'd be dead without her. She kinda has a narrator type role though. She explains how things work. Shes the guide at the start then, advisor. Also she's your window to Tar Avalon for much of the story.

From a thread which I won't link to due to spoiler's...

"...Moiraine is one of the 10 most essential characters in the books. Even when she is not present, her influence is felt..."

Sudden Valley

Unfortunately in most adaptions of books, especially in movies the common refrain is that they are not as good of the original books. I read the majority of the books so hard to know if the show is bad or just i'm biased towards the books. It is a pity we couldn't have separated the thread into book and non-book viewers of the show as why should non-book readers care what is not included form the books. Adaptations do not have to be faithful to the original content to be good. Bladerunner for example makes a lot of changes from the original, but great, book but is a great movie, it would boring to listen to book readers sh!t all over the movie because they changed it a lot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445578#Comment_118445578

Taking the books arguments out of it and it is still a badly written, shot, and directed show with bad effects/sets/wardrobe.

I agree that it would be better served to have a book and non-book thread but you might have 1 or 2 posters in the non-book. From looking around other sites, this show has not captured any major non-book audience and just about alienated most of its core.

Need a Username

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445276#Comment_118445276

As I I said in my post I wasn’t interested in having an argument. Not have I been disrespectful of of long times fans of the book series and I have thanked those who answered my questions.

I responded to your comment about the show being an “attack on men” or whatever because you brought that up.

You seem to think that fan of the book series are deserve some place here. No other fan on the thread has said that that I am aware of. They’ve all been pleasant - the arrogance and obnoxiousness here is yours

screamer

never read the books, but really enjoy the show. It is good to remember for those of you with your knickers in a twist that’s it’s just a fantasy story, magic, Trollocs, women with all the power…. And I say that as a woman. I enjoy it for what it is, and considered reading the books, but as they seem to diverge so much from the Amazon series, they sound like they’d be a let down so I’ll stick with the series. Looking forward to the next one.

Need a Username

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445364#Comment_118445364

Starbuck is a woman in the reboot series

other than some designs and the basic plot of finding Earth the story is very very different but it has nothing to do with changing Starbuck’s gender

odyssey06

As a non book reader I appreciate the book readers critiques on this thread as they have avoided big spoilers... it has helped to explain some of what I have found underwhelming or confusing in the TV series.

If there were two separate threads the non book thread would be a spoiler minefield.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445364#Comment_118445364

The basic principle of the show was the same as the original - a fleet flees robots to find a mythical planet called "earth" - but everything from tone, story, character and so on, was radically different. As a reduction: the original was a fun space show for all the family (complete with cute robot sidekick), the reboot a serious show about clinging to your humanity when all hope seems lost. Or the delicate balance of democracy during a time of (constant) military crisis. The reboot was a masterclass on delving into the pitfalls of power - while the episode 33, remains one of the greatest pieces of action TV made.

Can't speak to the motivations for flipping Starbuck's gender, but the fact the original show was a curio from the 70s, born from the goldrush of Star Wars knock offs, meant there wasn't a resting cabal of fans to care that they did in the first place (plus the reboot was pre social media, so the magnifying effect of outrage culture didn't exist).

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446029#Comment_118446029

In LOTR Arwen was given the power/actions of Glorfindel to expand her character. It was done very well. I was disappointed not to see Glorfindel on screen but not outraged. In the books he has that one specific role and is not a major character with an arc.

But as a non book reader I gather the difference with WOT is that the characters who already had character arcs are being given pieces of other major characters arcs leaving them diminished, and this is being done only on gender grounds not for reasons of 'concentration' on screen on fewer characters.

Id hope we could keep everyone in the one thread (not by using the one power tho)

Book fans eagerly anticipated this, and most of us - I'll say it again- accepted that changes would not only be inevitable but actually be good, given that jordan wrote himself into a pacing issue halfway through and frankly struggled to keep things even and moving throughout the series

The majority of criticism from book readers as book readers in this thread is that the changes are not to improve flow or to cut what wasnt needed for adaptation, time, budget reasons. Its that the changes really do make calling this the wheel of time fairly meaningless, it simply isnt.

I dont myself think that theres a big attempt to undercut the male characters to boost the women, and tbh i think moiraine is a hugely influential character for the first four or five books and is used in a decent way as our intro/narrator to larger pieces of the narrative here, because who else is well placed to know enough about it all? Cutting the time taken and number of characters used means you get more moiraine, thats fine

Its the nonsense that was added taking up half episodes here and there, or simply adding in dead wives and love triangles for no reason, or deciding one of our five heroes is actually a villain, actually, or that the pivotal character of the first half of the entire series of books is a nonentity to get everyone talking on twitter about the girls instead- thats all shite, it actually takes away from what worked and worked well in the books, nynaeve and rand are strong characters from the start, matt and egwene and perrin develop in different places and times later

Look it would be like a lord of the rings adaptation where gandalf and saruman were merged into one and the scriptwriter decided to have tom bombadil carry the ring to mordor because that would shorten the narrative

Would someone new to the story dig it, if it was well done?

Maybe, i dont know, but i think it would be a fair cheek to call it the lord of the rings and if several million readers of the wheel of time feel like the major chance theyll get in the next few decades to see an on screen adaptation of the story is being pissed up the wall by a careerist nobody who sees it as a chance to make a name for himself but who simply doesnt care about the story, you have to understand the reaction, however it manifests itself across different readers (i think the representation across the cast is great, meself, who cares, but i think the actual arguments against it do hold up tbf)

Need a Username

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446173#Comment_118446173

I don’t think anyone would dig Tom Bombadail. :|

Who the nonentity? I’m guessing Rand.

The casting of the villagers is just bad. With the exception of Barney Harris I’m surprised they weren’t mistaken for lumber in the construction of the sets. Just about every supporting or background character was twenty times better.

Yeah i was even leaving aside the many, many criticisms youd make of the show only as a viewer!

Need a Username

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446300#Comment_118446300

weren’t all my criticisms of the show about Lan and the villagers?

I know I felt like a lot was not being explained I don’t remember criticising that

I know my opinion of the show as it went along in regards to non villagers elements

No i meant in myself, i have

i) criticisms as a reader

and

ii) criticisms id make even if id never heard of the books

Need a Username

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446654#Comment_118446654

Apologies - I saw make as made

thought you meant “you’d made”

I did think it odd that anyone would remember especially when I can’t ;)

is_that_so

I don't know the books at all but decided to give the show a spin. First off, I appreciate that some will really take to this, through knowledge of the books or how they've gone about this but it's also possible that some, like me, will bail after an episode.

Visually stunning and as reviews have commented it has some great effects but the exposition for a non-reader is turgid stuff. Dialogue too is lifted right out of LOTR, including the Galadriel voiceover but an extremely clunky version. For me the problem is the pacing of this and the choice of cast. I have read that it is a good representation of the books/s but Pike is not and has never been charismatic and seem to fit certain roles better than others but she looks to be treating this as Shakespeare. None of the rest stand out as anyway interesting but maybe that's how they are written. Anyway to those who enjoy it keep watching.

Good representation of the books and Pike is bad?

Complete opposite

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677314#Comment_118677314

I know nothing about the books and I've always found her a decent but very stiff actress and was not at all taken with the Galadriel clone thing she does here. That could be my reaction to the overall look and feel anyway of course!

JP Liz V1

Wheel of Time Snags Early Season 3 Renewal at Amazon

pixelburp

Obviously somebody likes this, given the sledging it seemed to get every week here lol.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119373785#Comment_119373785

Do we really know this with an Amazon series though? Viewing figures would be interesting.

Also they've already ploughed a huge amount of money into it... so they choice is between more series of something they've already burned setup costs against & going through the expensive startup phase again.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374123#Comment_119374123

The logic works both ways; why continued spending money on something apparently uniformly hated? Amazon don't lack for scripts across their desk. We can't know either way, but series usually get renewed cos the studio sees them a success at something.

Slydice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119373785#Comment_119373785

A lot seemed to be book related.

They are banking on similar viewer figures, for season 2.

Got to wonder how many books fans will jump ship