Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018/2019 Part Two

ollkiller

I hope we get trashed by Newcastle. I hope we lose every game we have as it's the only way to get rid of Mourinho. He has obviously lost the dressing room. There is no coming back from that. Just sack him already. Watching United since 1982 and the last few years have been torture.

Backstreet Moyes

Drumpot wrote: »

I can’t speak for others but I don’t necessarily see sacking Jose as anything other then a short term solution that will most likely waste another few years as the club fumbles on. I don’t trust Woodward or the owners have a cohesive football plan and sacking our manager is the perfect camouflage for them to slip back into the background.

I was hoping that Jose would be told he has full control and will be able to offload whoever is not on board with him. That clearly hasn’t happened. Then I was hoping that maybe Jose might figure out a way of galvanizing the players somehow, that hasn’t happened.

I have suspected and rio said it last night that it looks like Jose wants the sack at this stage. If that’s the case then I don’t see the benefit of retaining him. I don’t even mind if the club writes off this season to wait for the proper manager at the end of the season but it needs to start doing things right. People presume the club spending money equates to the owers doing what they can for the first team which we see is bullsh*t.

For all the talk of tactics , I don’t care what manager comes in but the character and application of this united squad is nowhere near a champions one. It doesn’t matter what tactics you play if a team puts on the kind of efforts we have seen this season.

On a side note I was thinking about the fact that Jose sold mata to united and how he has learned to work again with the popular player. If I dig a bit deeper I think it’s also a sign of how poor the state of the squad has been that he took over and what needs to be done with it. He could afford to discard Mata (player of season a few times) to increase the quality of that squad. That says a lot and while people may accuse him of making excuses I don’t see any manager walking in and making this squad world beaters without some serious renovations.

So to answer your question, I don’t see Jose capable of turning around the dressingroom without absolute control and support from the owners. I don’t see that happening. I don’t see the team miraculously raise their game as the players know the season and prob Jose is finished.

Im a massive Mourinho fan and don't think we will do better but he has to go.

He alienated the players in the summer and they don't want to play for him.

Woodwards decision to let him alienate the squad and keep him on as manager and not back him was inexcusable.

People here knew what was coming how could Woodward not see this.

Once Woodward is in charge of the football side of things it doesn't matter who takes over.

Backstreet Moyes

ollkiller wrote: »

I hope we get trashed by Newcastle. I hope we lose every game we have as it's the only way to get rid of Mourinho. He has obviously lost the dressing room. There is no coming back from that. Just sack him already. Watching United since 1982 and the last few years have been torture.

Pathetic really is all I can say

LuckyLloyd

SlickRic wrote: »

last night was the tipping point for a few of my Utd supporting mates, and I'm honestly not sure why.

it changed precisely nothing. you know nothing more as a fan now than you did before.

The performance was incredibly anemic. Valencia are clearly a pretty limited side, yet they often were able to knock the ball about comfortably and move themselves out of tight spots in their half through to a counter attacking position. Utd were superior technically and athletically all over the park, but lacked structure cohesion and purpose. Players might individually press a Valencia player in trouble but find their teammates hadn't spotted the opportunity and joined them, that kind of thing.

And on a more superficial level: it was a dull drab 0 - 0 draw played out in front of a subdued atmosphere with the season hanging in the balance. Not good.

The general tenor from my Utd supporting friends is resignation. They await the end of this increasingly toxic period.

bennyl10

ollkiller wrote: »

I hope we get trashed by Newcastle. I hope we lose every game we have as it's the only way to get rid of Mourinho. He has obviously lost the dressing room. There is no coming back from that. Just sack him already. Watching United since 1982 and the last few years have been torture.

Honestly who do you say we bring in?

-Poch won't leave spurs and Leavy will bleed us on compo for him
-Zidane ran form Real at first sign of something going a bit iffy(ie losing ronaldo), why wouldnt he do the same at united?
-Ancelloti has a nice number at Napoli and plays same football so many 'hate' form past few years

I've seen Keane and Giggs being mentioned too, there's not even any bonus to either of them coming in.

Nicky Butt is a realistic option, but he's not big enough and fans will freak if he loses a few games..

I'm not happy with Jose at the moment, something has to change, Pogba has to go sooner rather than later.

I just don't see what good sacking Jose will make in short term.

ollkiller

Originally Posted by ollkiller
I hope we get trashed by Newcastle. I hope we lose every game we have as it's the only way to get rid of Mourinho. He has obviously lost the dressing room. There is no coming back from that. Just sack him already. Watching United since 1982 and the last few years have been torture.

Nuts102 wrote: »

Pathetic really is all I can say

Which? The fact that United are pathetic or that i want them to lose?

Mitch Connor

bennyl10 wrote: »

I just don't see what good sacking Jose will make in short term.

What good do you see coming from keeping Jose?

LuckyLloyd

Drumpot wrote: »

I can’t speak for others but I don’t necessarily see sacking Jose as anything other then a short term solution that will most likely waste another few years as the club fumbles on. I don’t trust Woodward or the owners have a cohesive football plan and sacking our manager is the perfect camouflage for them to slip back into the background.

I was hoping that Jose would be told he has full control and will be able to offload whoever is not on board with him. That clearly hasn’t happened. Then I was hoping that maybe Jose might figure out a way of galvanizing the players somehow, that hasn’t happened.

I have suspected and rio said it last night that it looks like Jose wants the sack at this stage. If that’s the case then I don’t see the benefit of retaining him. I don’t even mind if the club writes off this season to wait for the proper manager at the end of the season but it needs to start doing things right. People presume the club spending money equates to the owers doing what they can for the first team which we see is bullsh*t.

For all the talk of tactics , I don’t care what manager comes in but the character and application of this united squad is nowhere near a champions one. It doesn’t matter what tactics you play if a team puts on the kind of efforts we have seen this season.

On a side note I was thinking about the fact that Jose sold mata to united and how he has learned to work again with the popular player. If I dig a bit deeper I think it’s also a sign of how poor the state of the squad has been that he took over and what needs to be done with it. He could afford to discard Mata (player of season a few times) to increase the quality of that squad. That says a lot and while people may accuse him of making excuses I don’t see any manager walking in and making this squad world beaters without some serious renovations.

So to answer your question, I don’t see Jose capable of turning around the dressingroom without absolute control and support from the owners. I don’t see that happening. I don’t see the team miraculously raise their game as the players know the season and prob Jose is finished.

It's an 81 point / Cup Final squad that lost no key pieces in the summer and actually added a couple of players. And that 81 point squad is currently performing at 54 point pace, was dumped out of the first round of the League Cup by lower league opposition at home and might now need a result in Spain in mid December to progress in the CL. The performance of the players has dropped drastically to start the new season. I can't imagine throwing tantrums to the media about not being able to replace some of them helps galvanize them obviously - but overall he is responsible for motivating and utilising the players available in the most efficient manner possible. He clearly isn't doing that. Them being "Championship" or not is irrelevant really.

ollkiller

bennyl10 wrote: »

Honestly who do you say we bring in?

-Poch won't leave spurs and Leavy will bleed us on compo for him
-Zidane ran form Real at first sign of something going a bit iffy(ie losing ronaldo), why wouldnt he do the same at united?
-Ancelloti has a nice number at Napoli and plays same football so many 'hate' form past few years

I've seen Keane and Giggs being mentioned too, there's not even any bonus to either of them coming in.

Nicky Butt is a realistic option, but he's not big enough and fans will freak if he loses a few games..

I'm not happy with Jose at the moment, something has to change, Pogba has to go sooner rather than later.

I just don't see what good sacking Jose will make in short term.

Giggs, Butt and Keane are all non runners in my eyes. Who would i get. Zidane as he can obviously massage egos well. I'd like Poch but as you said would be very heard to get him. I'd actually give the Wolves manager a go as they play some great football.

Mourinho's style of football just does not fit the modern game anymore. So i'd say nearly anyone would be better at this stage. Watch all the other top level teams and how they press to get the ball back. We don't ever play a high press. As i said once you've lost the dressing room there is no going back.

LuckyLloyd

ollkiller wrote: »

I hope we get trashed by Newcastle. I hope we lose every game we have as it's the only way to get rid of Mourinho. He has obviously lost the dressing room. There is no coming back from that. Just sack him already. Watching United since 1982 and the last few years have been torture.

I don't think you'd ever want your team to lose really, but I don't doubt that many Utd fans were dismayed when Mourinho was hired. His methods and media personality are out of kilter with the history and tradition of the club. And I'm not surprised they just want rid.

Rossi IRL

Matic is a quality player so he is but I think over the next season or so he should be replaced by someone a bit more nimble like Neves.

I find Matic to be really slow with getting the ball forward.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he is a bad player far from it, but if we want to play a quicker game then I reckon Matic would need to be sacrificed long term.

To have a midfield of Neves, Fred and Pogba would be good. Pogba himself would also need to work aloy harder with pressing aswell. But I could see that midfield working.

That's just one of the problem areas and probably the easiest to fix.

bennyl10

ollkiller wrote: »

Giggs, Butt and Keane are all non runners in my eyes. Who would i get. Zidane as he can obviously massage egos well. I'd like Poch but as you said would be very heard to get him. I'd actually give the Wolves manager a go as they play some great football.

Mourinho's style of football just does not fit the modern game anymore. So i'd say nearly anyone would be better at this stage. Watch all the other top level teams and how they press to get the ball back. We don't ever play a high press. As i said once you've lost the dressing room there is no going back.

Agree 100% and if that's the case then he has to go

I just don't want to see us back to square one, with Butt as a caretaker manager, and us settling for someone like Dyche or Howe..

I don't see him going before the Chelsea game (or maybe even the second Juve game) but if nothing changes between now and then, and we're possibly out of UCL, then woodward will pull the plug.

and we're back staring straight at a transfer window hunting for a manager.. again

Drumpot

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's an 81 point / Cup Final squad that lost no key pieces in the summer and actually added a couple of players. And that 81 point squad is currently performing at 54 point pace, was dumped out of the first round of the League Cup by lower league opposition at home and might now need a result in Spain in mid December to progress in the CL. The performance of the players has dropped drastically to start the new season. I can't imagine throwing tantrums to the media about not being able to replace some of them helps galvanize them obviously - but overall he is responsible for motivating and utilising the players available in the most efficient manner possible. He clearly isn't doing that. Them being "Championship" or not is irrelevant really.

Look at the last 5 league winning teams and how a slight drop in performance and application affected them the next season. It’s not unique to Jose teams. Do you honestly believe any manager can do better then 2nd with that squad?

And how do you feel the ambitious players felt when the club tried to bridge that gap with Fred and Dalot? I’m not going to dispute if Jose is causing issues but the club hasn’t given the players much to be positive about either.

Mitch Connor

bennyl10 wrote: »

Agree 100% and if that's the case then he has to go

I just don't want to see us back to square one, with Butt as a caretaker manager, and us settling for someone like Dyche or Howe..

I don't see him going before the Chelsea game (or maybe even the second Juve game) but if nothing changes between now and then, and we're possibly out of UCL, then woodward will pull the plug.

and we're back staring straight at a transfer window hunting for a manager.. again

Better do so now, or soon, than waiting the season out though.

Whoever the new manager might be they need:

1. Time with the current players to see who they like and who they don't. Better to have that time now than wasting next season as well.
2. The authority and backing to sell the players they do not like.
3. The backing to bring in replacements for the positions they identify.

I do wonder if part of the reason United have not sacked Jose is because we want to bring in a DoF or similar, and don't want to do so after a new manager is appointed - they want the DoF in place and at least some part of the process of selecting the new manager. To me, you would want the DoF in place before a new manager - or at least side by side. Though I suppose any discussion with a new manager could be framed by the knowledge United are looking for a person in such a role.

Drumpot

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I don't think you'd ever want your team to lose really, but I don't doubt that many Utd fans were dismayed when Mourinho was hired. His methods and media personality are out of kilter with the history and tradition of the club. And I'm not surprised they just want rid.

I was dismayed when Jose was made manager. But it’s why I think the bigger issue is Woodward and/or the board. They have no plan and no cohesive strategy at the club.

They signed Jose and said they want to keep with united attacking ethos and youth policy. It’s like signing Lukaku and expecting Ronaldo like attacking flair. Fans have been just taking this bullsh*t from the owners for too long. Oh look how much the club spends! Well is it buying the players for Jose or for the clubs ethos? They don’t match up. We all know this so why are people surprised when two conflicting ideals are ending up with this mess?

The club is a shambles not because Jose looks like he’s self destructing but because it’s only figuring out now that it’s wsstdd 6 years and nearly a billion on a throw mud and see if it sticks strategy. It’s pathetic.

I think Woodward is like that really good salesman in one department who wants a position he simply isn’t capable of doing well. Maybe he is too much of a yes man (which is why he is supported) or maybe his lack of football knowledge is as troublesome as it looks. It happens in big companies and it happens at football clubs where people retain their position in spite of their flaws.

LuckyLloyd

Drumpot wrote: »

Look at the last 5 league winning teams and how a slight drop in performance and application affected them the next season. It’s not unique to Jose teams. Do you honestly believe any manager can do better then 2nd with that squad?

And how do you feel the ambitious players felt when the club tried to bridge that gap with Fred and Dalot? I’m not going to dispute if Jose is causing issues but the club hasn’t given the players much to be positive about either.

Your arguments would have merit if we were discussing how Utd are off the pace in the title race but still performing at a top four pace. This isn't a nuanced argument over whether enough was done to bridge the gap and push on however. The form and results have fallen through the floor; the manager is openly sparring with the most talented player in the squad; and he's playing a young holding midfielder at centre back seemingly to make a point to the board. Whether a manager could do better than second is irrelevant. This isn't a 54 point squad, they cost way too much and they are being paid way too much for that level of performance.

Drumpot

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Your arguments would have merit if we were discussing how Utd are off the pace in the title race but still performing at a top four pace. This isn't a nuanced argument over whether enough was done to bridge the gap and push on however. The form and results have fallen through the floor; the manager is openly sparring with the most talented player in the squad; and he's playing a young holding midfielder at centre back seemingly to make a point to the board. Whether a manager could do better than second is irrelevant. This isn't a 54 point squad, they cost way too much and they are being paid way too much for that level of performance.

You are arguing a point I didn’t make. Jose has lost the plot but replacing him doesn’t make this a top 2 team. Liverpool signed a world record cb and GK that on its own made their team stronger without any factoring in of a manager. United took a step back with their transfer dealings and with or without Jose that can’t of made the ambitious players at the club happy.

My point on tactics was fair. All the league winning managers from 2011 to 2017 retained the same league winning sqauads, played the same tactics and the exact same teams failed badly in comparison to their previous season. Chelsea and Leicester in particular:

City 2011 89 points 2012 78 points (- 11)
United 2012 92points 2013 64points (- 28)
City 2013 86points 2014 79 points (-7)
Chelsea 2014 87 points 2015 50points (-27)
Leicester 2015 81 points 2016 44 points (-27)
Chelsea 2016 93 points 2017 70 points (-23)

I don’t hear conte or ranieri getting the same abuse that Jose is getting!

If united even match Chelsea under contes fall it would equate to 58 points. The point isn’t Jose is excused for what’s going on, the point is that if a teams application and drive isn’t at its peak it can have a massive affect on performances and results no matter what the tactics.

Edit: it’s also interesting that city pretty much always spends the most money every season and they are the only club in that list that can put in a reasonable challange to retain their title.

Fitz*

• All summer, Jose constantly complained publicly about not buying a CB
  
• The season starts without this new CB and Jose has to go crawling back to the CBs he very publicly wanted to replace.
  
• Jose expects these CBs he publicly tried to replace to try and perform 'for him'
  
• Jose constantly drops said CBs them, replaced them with out of position CMs and constantly changes the systems
  
• Jose publicly complains about his CBs not being able to pass the ball and it is their fault that United cannot build from the back.

He kicked all of his CBs to the curb and then expects them to perform for him, all while, he constantly scathes them in public after every game.

All his own doing. Blame Woodward all you like but this public humiliation of the CBs is all on Jose.

GavRedKing

Drumpot wrote: »

I don’t hear conte or ranieri getting the same abuse that Jose is getting!

You clearly dont, and why would you, follow Chelsea Twitter.

Conte was really disliked towards the end by the fans mainly because of the displays and alienating that had happened of players and the fact from January, Chelsea had been really, really, s**t.

We were 2nd in the league at one stage around Christmas but the s**t hit the fan and the house of cards came down, a good manager and nice man but far too stubborn and stuck in his ways to change things and was on auto pilot to his sacking towards the end.

The flip side to that was Chelsea fans and I was one of them, romantically defended Jose right to the end and beyond it and even blamed players for getting him sacked. I reckon because Jose instills a them against us mentality for the fans, that once you support Jose nothing he does is bad and it creates a bad attitude towards anyone that would dare question him.

Once Jose gets in this mode its like a bad break up in a toxic relationship, dragging it on is only going to effect everyone and its best to just get it over with really.

LuckyLloyd

Drumpot wrote: »

You are arguing a point I didn’t make. Jose has lost the plot but replacing him doesn’t make this a top 2 team. Liverpool signed a world record cb and GK that on its own made their team stronger without any factoring in of a manager. United took a step back with their transfer dealings and with or without Jose that can’t of made the ambitious players at the club happy.

My point on tactics was fair. All the league winning managers from 2011 to 2017 retained the same league winning sqauads, played the same tactics and the exact same teams failed badly in comparison to their previous season. Chelsea and Leicester in particular:

City 2011 89 points 2012 78 points (- 11)
The difference was between 2012 and 2013? Eleven points is a drop off within the bounds of normal variance but, nonetheless, Mancini was sacked at the end of the season.
United 2012 92points 2013 64points (- 28)
Moyes was sacked at the end of it.
City 2013 86points 2014 79 points (-7)
Difference was between 2014 and 2015? Again, 7 points is fairly slight though it is worth noting that City were joint top at Christmas and a disatrous run of 18 in 36 ended their challenge in the spring.
Chelsea 2014 87 points 2015 50points (-27)
Mourinho was sacked because of this.
Leicester 2015 81 points 2016 44 points (-27)
Ranieri was sacked because of this.
Chelsea 2016 93 points 2017 70 points (-23)
Conte was sacked because of this

I don’t hear conte or ranieri getting the same abuse that Jose is getting!

If united even match Chelsea under contes fall it would equate to 58 points. The point isn’t Jose is excused for what’s going on, the point is that if a teams application and drive isn’t at its peak it can have a massive affect on performances and results no matter what the tactics.

Edit: it’s also interesting that city pretty much always spends the most money every season and they are the only club in that list that can put in a reasonable challange to retain their title.

They were both sacked.

Drumpot

GavRedKing wrote: »

You clearly dont, and why would you, follow Chelsea Twitter.

Conte was really disliked towards the end by the fans mainly because of the displays and alienating that had happened of players and the fact from January, Chelsea had been really, really, s**t.

We were 2nd in the league at one stage around Christmas but the s**t hit the fan and the house of cards came down, a good manager and nice man but far too stubborn and stuck in his ways to change things and was on auto pilot to his sacking towards the end.

The flip side to that was Chelsea fans and I was one of them, romantically defended Jose right to the end and beyond it and even blamed players for getting him sacked. I reckon because Jose instills a them against us mentality for the fans, that once you support Jose nothing he does is bad and it creates a bad attitude towards anyone that would dare question him.

Once Jose gets in this mode its like a bad break up in a toxic relationship, dragging it on is only going to effect everyone and its best to just get it over with really.

Agreed.

I think Jose is finished at the Club but I’m fed up with fans thinking that the club spending some money along with a change of manager will sort this out. Rinse repeat every year or two. The owners are trying a mosh mash of the Chelsea way, the old united way, half arsed city way and just a complete dogs boll*x footballing strategy.

If you look at the league winners since 2011 it is interesting that city spend the most and are the only club that have been capable of mounting a half decent challange. It says a lot about the modern footballer as far as I am concerned. Every league winning manager can’t be out of date or useless!!!

Drumpot

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They were both sacked.

Which still doesn’t address the point. Why do league winning teams collapse the next season? It’s nothing to do with tactics!

Also city are the only team to put in a decent challange. They spend the most, that’s no coincidence and could explain why their teams fair better at mounting a challange to retain their title.

Mitch Connor

There was infighting at City and the board had no real love for Mancini - they now have who they wanted from the start.
There was infighting at Chelsea, with manager/board/player in the cases of both Jose and Conte.
Leicster arguably returned to what you would have expected of them, to be honest.

Adamcp898

FitzShane wrote: »

• All summer, Jose constantly complained publicly about not buying a CB
  
• The season starts without this new CB and Jose has to go crawling back to the CBs he very publicly wanted to replace.
  
• Jose expects these CBs he publicly tried to replace to try and perform 'for him'
  
• Jose constantly drops said CBs them, replaced them with out of position CMs and constantly changes the systems
  
• Jose publicly complains about his CBs not being able to pass the ball and it is their fault that United cannot build from the back.

He kicked all of his CBs to the curb and then expects them to perform for him, all while, he constantly scathes them in public after every game.

All his own doing. Blame Woodward all you like but this public humiliation of the CBs is all on Jose.

You're overthinking this. They weren't good enough before he started criticising them either.

The comments in the press over the Summer were clearly designed at trying to force Ed's hand into stumping up the cash for a new one and they didn't work. And so followed more comments about now being a "coach" and no longer a "manager".

You can blame him sure for his public facing demeanour at times, but what he said last night about the back four not having the technical ability to move the ball out from the back is only what plenty others have being saying for quite a long time.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

There was infighting at City and the board had no real love for Mancini - they now have who they wanted from the start.
There was infighting at Chelsea, with manager/board/player in the cases of both Jose and Conte.
Leicster arguably returned to what you would have expected of them, to be honest.

Do you see a pattern though?

In fighting. Managers falling out with players. Club and managers at odds. Every league winning team seems to suffer the same fate. Except city who spend the most by a mile and finally have a footballing strategy that complements its manager. Pep isn’t the solution, he’s the final piece of the city Jigsaw.

Jose was our club forcing a square piece into a round hole....

LuckyLloyd

Drumpot wrote: »

Do you see a pattern though?

In fighting. Managers falling out with players. Club and managers at odds. Every league winning team seems to suffer the same fate. Except city who spend the most by a mile and finally have a footballing strategy that complements its manager. Pep isn’t the solution, he’s the final piece of the city Jigsaw.

Jose was our club forcing a square piece into a round hole....

Yes, in every situation above sacking the underperforming manager has led to relative increase in performance from the successor. Jose needs to be sacked *and* structures and approach at board level need to change.

duffman13

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Lukaku in particular was an embarrassment. He can't play football. He can barge through someone and if a ball is put in front of him he can shoot it towards the goal with extremely varying results. Anyone his size can do that. Dispossesed, missing free headers, cant control the ball, and its been a long time since I roared at my TV as I did when he came from off side to take the ball off Valencia. That sort of crap is hardly Mourinho's fault, he's just not up to the level we're expecting.

I dont agree with your assessment of Lukaku at all, however if you feel that way well then you can't say Mourinho is blameless. He signed him, he had him as a player previously and seen him play countless times for and against him. It was his decision to sign him.

TitianGerm

Adamcp898 wrote: »

You're overthinking this. They weren't good enough before he started criticising them either.

The comments in the press over the Summer were clearly designed at trying to force Ed's hand into stumping up the cash for a new one and they didn't work. And so followed more comments about now being a "coach" and no longer a "manager".

You can blame him sure for his public facing demeanour at times, but what he said last night about the back four not having the technical ability to move the ball out from the back is only what plenty others have being saying for quite a long time.

If they weren't good enough why did Jose spend the guts of 70m on Bailey and Lindelof?

Edit: and there were plenty of people in here who rated Bailey as one of the best CBs in the league.

Drumpot

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yes, in every situation above sacking the underperforming manager has led to relative increase in performance from the successor. Jose needs to be sacked *and* structures and approach at board level need to change.

I never argued that and you still haven’t addressed the point.

Why do league winning teams collapse unless they are city who are pumping in way more then everybody else? Why are all the managers the problem? What exactly have tactics got to do with league winning teams form collapsing?

You are focusing on Jose throwing tantrums and falling out with players which is fair. But it doesn’t explain every othe league winner falling to pieces in a similar fashion. Why is every league winning squad and club falling out with managers ? It doesn’t matter United didn’t win the league for this point because the exact same thing has Happened at united. While the public displays from Jose makes it look unique, the end result seems to be the same for most clubs the last decade or so....

Necro

duffman13 wrote: »

I dont agree with your assessment of Lukaku at all, however if you feel that way well then you can't say Mourinho is blameless. He signed him, he had him as a player previously and seen him play countless times for and against him. It was his decision to sign him.

In Lukaku's defence - last night he had on his left - a player who could barely beat the first man with multiple crosses all night, and on his right a player who looks entirely broken and living off past reputation alone.

Behind him he has a half-arsed at best Pogba, and two other MFs that lack creativity.

Add to the fact he's probably knackered, it's a bit unfair to describe him as embarrassing, imo anyways.

Mitch Connor

Necrominus wrote: »

In Lukaku's defence - last night he had on his left - a player who could barely beat the first man with multiple crosses all night, and on his right a player who looks entirely broken and living off past reputation alone.

Behind him he has a half-arsed at best Pogba, and two other MFs that lack creativity.

Add to the fact he's probably knackered, it's a bit unfair to describe him as embarrassing, imo anyways.

mitigating factors or not, he was rubbish.

HIs lack of movement also makes it hard for Pogba to find him, or sanchez to find him, or rashford to find him.

I'm very vocal about our need to improve creatively, but Lukaku was basically a wall last night. Rubbish.

Hotblack Desiato

GavRedKing wrote: »

We were 2nd in the league at one stage
... but the s**t hit the fan and the house of cards came down, a good manager and nice man but far too stubborn and stuck in his ways to change things and was on auto pilot to his sacking towards the end.

Thought you were talking about Jose there for a sec... ("nice man" aside hah!)

IITYWYBMAD

TitianGerm wrote: »

If they weren't good enough why did Jose spend the guts of 70m on Bailey and Lindelof?

Edit: and there were plenty of people in here who rated Bailey as one of the best CBs in the league.

Exactly. Why buy these lads, if they are not good enough.

The problems aren't just with defense either. Watching the match last night, at one stage Pogba wins the ball in midfield, beats a Valencia midfielder, looks up and what does he see? Sanchez on the right wing, Lukaku within 5 yards of him and Luke Shaw on the left wing. How exactly is he supposed to progress in a situation like that? What are his options? Is he supposed to beat 2-3 players himself and then try to make that killer pass?

Your Airbag

Drumpot wrote: »

I never argued that and you still haven’t addressed the point.

Why do league winning teams collapse unless they are city who are pumping in way more then everybody else? Why are all the managers the problem? What exactly have tactics got to do with league winning teams form collapsing?

You are focusing on Jose throwing tantrums and falling out with players which is fair. But it doesn’t explain every othe league winner falling to pieces in a similar fashion. Why is every league winning squad and club falling out with managers ? It doesn’t matter United didn’t win the league for this point because the exact same thing has Happened at united. While the public displays from Jose makes it look unique, the end result seems to be the same for most clubs the last decade or so....

They don't always fall out with managers, this is just excuse making form you. UTD won plenty of titles and then nothing the season after and the league winning side didn't collapse or have to sack the manager. This has happened at Barca, Madrid, Arsenal and many other clubs too.

The manager doesn't isolate the team and create a hostile environment if they don't win anything the next season, actually the smart thing to do is too keep the squad on your side and together, make one or two additions and keep the best players and win again.

Your trying to make it sound common place. Its not. Oh except for one manager, it seems whether win or lose Jose will find a way to either disappear or fall out with the squad.

Right now he has fallen out with the squad and looks set to leave having delivered zero major titles for us. Whats a terrific UTD legacy that will be for him but this was totally predictable the moment we hired him, its simply what he does.

Zeek12

Really wish we could get players to stay away from Social media


https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45730077

intellectual dosser

Necrominus wrote: »

In Lukaku's defence - last night he had on his left - a player who could barely beat the first man with multiple crosses all night, and on his right a player who looks entirely broken and living off past reputation alone.

Behind him he has a half-arsed at best Pogba, and two other MFs that lack creativity.

Add to the fact he's probably knackered, it's a bit unfair to describe him as embarrassing, imo anyways.

By all means try to offer reasons, but Lukaku's performance last night was embarrassing. I'm just after remembering that moment in the first half when he tried to beat a man but left the ball behind him - shudders.

This is the player we expect to lead the line for Manchester United - reality check needed for some.

Mitch Connor

intellectual dosser wrote: »

By all means try to offer reasons, but Lukaku's performance last night was embarrassing. I'm just after remembering that moment in the first half when he tried to beat a man but left the ball behind him - shudders.

This is the player we expect to lead the line for Manchester United - reality check needed for some.

He is playing poorly, imo, rather than him being a poor player. In general terms I don't know who you would look to replace him with if you wanted him gone, to he honest. We aren't getting Kane.

Necro

intellectual dosser wrote:

This is the player we expect to lead the line for Manchester United - reality check needed for some.

Ummmm..... same player who scored 27 goals in all competitions for Utd last year - in his first season at the club?

Same player who has 4 goals in 7 Premier League games so far this season?

There are most definitely problems in the United squad - defensively and creatively - but Lukaku is not one of them.

Fitz*

Necrominus wrote: »

Ummmm..... same player who scored 27 goals in all competitions for Utd last year - in his first season at the club?

Same player who has 4 goals in 7 Premier League games so far this season?

There are most definitely problems in the United squad - defensively and creatively - but Lukaku is not one of them.

The same player who scored against lower teams and doesn't score against the top teams? How many goals did he score against top 10 opposition last season? He is a good striker, but he is not a league-winning striker.


2 vs West Ham (first game of the season)
1 vs Swansea (15th)
1 vs Stoke (12th)
1 vs Everton (18th)
1 vs Saints (11th)
1 vs Palace (20th)
1 vs Newcastle (11th)
1 vs Bournemouth (14th)
1 vs WBA (19th)
1 vs Stoke (18th)
1 vs Huddersfield (19th)
1 vs Chelsea (5th)
1 vs Palace (18th)
1 vs Swansea (16th)
1 vs Bournemouth (11th)

There you have all 16 league goals Lukaku got last season. 1 goal he got was against a team in the top half of the table all season at the time of the game.

damowill

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'll ask this again, because I am curious about the correlation, and don't think there is anything new worth discussing from the Valencia match.

When Mourinho arrived at United so did Matic and Pogba, and for a long time his United side had those two playing in midfield. After a time and many lacklustre performances from Pogba, people started to complain that he shouldn't have to play in a midfield two, that he didn't play in a two for Juve, that it stifled his creative flair and that if he was going to play it would be best to be part of a midfield three. Jose stuck with a midfield two for a long time, and the unrest grew.

Eventually, around the middle of the 2nd season, Mourinho finally started to play a midfield three in every game. McTominay, Herrera, Felliani and a few others all regularly started to play along with Matic and Pogba.

Since that time United's performances dropped off a cliff, the second half of last season was poor and this season has been pure scutter.

Am I wrong with the timing here? Is it just coincidence?

Maybe the coincidence part was Mkhitaryan leaving. As much as he failed to live up to the demands of being a United player, he probably was key in in knitting midfield to attack which Pogba is failing to do.

Anyways I always felt we played a midfield 3 with the 3rd player being an attacking midfielder. Just Pogba was deeper alongside Matic or Herrera. And we had Lingard or Mkhitaryan ahead of them in Pogbas position now. I would never have said they played a 10 role that they played as they had plenty defensive duties.

In my opinion though our big problem at the moment is:

1. our centre backs cant play out from the back. Maguire was badly needed, comfortable on the ball & a threat setpieces. The game now demands CB's comfortable on the ball.

2. We dont have a playmaker in midfield. Instead of Fred we should have gone for Thiago at Bayern. currently we are playing fellaini & matic of which we only need 1. both together added with non ballers in defense make for a slow pace building from the back.

Mitch Connor

FitzShane wrote: »

The same player who scored against lower teams and doesn't score against the top teams? How many goals did he score against top 10 opposition last season? He is a good striker, but he is not a league-winning striker.


2 vs West Ham (first game of the season)
1 vs Swansea (15th)
1 vs Stoke (12th)
1 vs Everton (18th)
1 vs Saints (11th)
1 vs Palace (20th)
1 vs Newcastle (11th)
1 vs Bournemouth (14th)
1 vs WBA (19th)
1 vs Stoke (18th)
1 vs Huddersfield (19th)
1 vs Chelsea (5th)
1 vs Palace (18th)
1 vs Swansea (16th)
1 vs Bournemouth (11th)

There you have all 16 league goals Lukaku got last season. 1 goal he got was against a team in the top half of the table all season at the time of the game.

for a side that create F all though. I don't think last season was a case of him going missing vs top teams.

Before we pass judgement on him as a striker in a top side, i'd like to see how he actually does in a top side. We've not given him that platform, imo.

MagicIRL

Lads I've logged in for the first time in months because I just have to vent.

What the actual **** is going on with the club? United look nowhere near close to winning the League or the Champions League which, lets be honest, is what every fan expects them to be challenging for every season.

José makes bizarre team selections and is beyond negative about the team time and time again. He still doesn't seem to know his best XI, even after three years.

There's a ton of dead weight in the team again and in terms of playing positions, the team is incredibly lop-sided. There are no proper Wingers, a multitude of strikers playing out wide, no proper #10, no attacking threat from RB with a well past it Tony V playing and offering absolutely ****ing nothing going forward.

The midfield slows everything down. No-one seems to make off the ball runs. Everyone is way over-paid and way under-performing. Christ, Sanchez tries his best but he looks well past it.

There's absolutely no leadership on the pitch - especially at CB.

Even Lukaku last night was like a statue. Exceptionally talented pacey strikers in Rashford and Martial yet they're wasted out wide.

It's absolutely dire. I imagine the Glazers are happy with their revenue once United finish top 6ish so we're in for years and years of this **** heap if things don't change. Absolutely ****ing brutal to watch.

It's just a group of players being shoe-horned into a system that suits the manager and not the players themselves.

****.

Drumpot

Your Airbag wrote: »

They don't always fall out with managers, this is just excuse making form you. UTD won plenty of titles and then nothing the season after and the league winning side didn't collapse or have to sack the manager. This has happened at Barca, Madrid, Arsenal and many other clubs too.

The manager doesn't isolate the team and create a hostile environment if they don't win anything the next season, actually the smart thing to do is too keep the squad on your side and together, make one or two additions and keep the best players and win again.

Your trying to make it sound common place. Its not. Oh except for one manager, it seems whether win or lose Jose will find a way to either disappear or fall out with the squad.

Right now he has fallen out with the squad and looks set to leave having delivered zero major titles for us. Whats a terrific UTD legacy that will be for him but this was totally predictable the moment we hired him, its simply what he does.

I responded to somebody else who said there is a pattern of players/clubs and managers falling out and form collapsing after winning leagues. The manner of the capitulation May be different but the result is the same. People are getting hung up on Jose’s antics but it doesn’t change the fact that for the last 7 years all premier league winning managers have struggled to make it past the next season in charge of their clubs. That’s a remarkable statistic and quite damning of the modern player.

The narrative is that Jose is outdated, well it seems every league winning manager is outdated 12 months after winning a title! Maybe every manager in the world struggles to the get the modern footballer to pay attention more then a season or two !!!

The_Kew_Tour

I just don't buy into the fact that getting rid of Jose or even Pogba alone will see a change.

I think Jose is the man. I think Pogba needs to go but along with likes of Valencia and Jones.

The boards also needs to go. We need people running the club who see a season without winning a Pl or getting to semi final of CL as failure.

We need football people and players who when they kiss that crest mean it. Not doing it for getting more money or trying make influence.

Mitch Connor

MagicIRL wrote: »

It's absolutely dire. I imagine the Glazers are happy with their revenue once United finish top 6ish so we're in for years and years of this **** heap if things don't change. Absolutely ****ing brutal to watch.

Don't think this is the case at all.

The revenue differencial between the CL and EL is huge, and getting bigger. Not making the CL also has a direct impact on current sponsorship deals and likely future ones.

Top 4 is their goal, less than that is unacceptable for them, imo.

Mitch Connor

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I just don't buy into the fact that getting rid of Jose or even Pogba alone will see a change.

I think Jose is the man. I think Pogba needs to go but along with likes of Valencia and Jones.

The boards also needs to go. We need people running the club who see a season without winning a Pl or getting to semi final of CL as failure.

We need football people and players who when they kiss that crest mean it. Not doing it for getting more money or trying make influence.

We are not getting rid of the board though, not without some football people coming up with 4billion.

Jose being replaced doesn't fix everything - but I can't see an argument against it needing to be done. The trajectory of the side under him is shocking, how can we stick with it?

I 100% agree structures also need to change, and a bunch of players need to be replaced - but I can't see an arguement against Jose being a significant part of the problem himself.

Your Airbag

Drumpot wrote: »

I responded to somebody else who said there is a pattern of players/clubs and managers falling out and form collapsing after winning leagues. The manner of the capitulation May be different but the result is the same. People are getting hung up on Jose’s antics but it doesn’t change the fact that for the last 7 years all premier league winning managers have struggled to make it past the next season in charge of their clubs. That’s a remarkable statistic and quite damning of the modern player.

The narrative is that Jose is outdated, well it seems every league winning manager is outdated 12 months after winning a title! Maybe every manager in the world struggles to the get the modern footballer to pay attention more then a season or two !!!

If Jose had won us a title he'd get more leeway and your example might mean something but right now he is falling out with the title having won us no title.

Another disingenuous part of the post is this, out of those title winning teams that let the manager go the next season how many dropped out of the top four in the shambolic style Jose has us currently doing? We are 10th in the table, Chelsea were 16th when they sacked him.

Plus the antics with Jose are always next lever different. The drama he loves to create is embarrassing.

Your Airbag

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I just don't buy into the fact that getting rid of Jose or even Pogba alone will see a change.

I think Jose is the man. I think Pogba needs to go but along with likes of Valencia and Jones.

The boards also needs to go. We need people running the club who see a season without winning a Pl or getting to semi final of CL as failure.

We need football people and players who when they kiss that crest mean it. Not doing it for getting more money or trying make influence.

???? The man for what??? for passive shambolic football leaving us sitting 10th with the league over already. Cmon, he's been terrible and quite clearly isn't the man for UTD.

The_Kew_Tour

Mitch Connor wrote: »

We are not getting rid of the board though, not without some football people coming up with 4billion.

Jose being replaced doesn't fix everything - but I can't see an argument against it needing to be done. The trajectory of the side under him is shocking, how can we stick with it?

I 100% agree structures also need to change, and a bunch of players need to be replaced - but I can't see an arguement against Jose being a significant part of the problem himself.

The buck does stop with the manager. His head will be gone first no question. But no matter who we get in and it's going have a head full of big egos.

I just dont see huge change happening and with likes of Conte being mentioned by some as the replacement with his history I dont see any change coming about that would make a high majority of fans happy.

The club is toxic. We have players who think they are so much better them what they are.

What's not being addressed also that much is the reason United can't sell these players during to high wages some of them earn and don't deserve. Not saying it's not being mentioned but just it's also why club have kept some duds

LuckyLloyd

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I just don't buy into the fact that getting rid of Jose or even Pogba alone will see a change.

I think Jose is the man. I think Pogba needs to go but along with likes of Valencia and Jones.

The boards also needs to go. We need people running the club who see a season without winning a Pl or getting to semi final of CL as failure.

We need football people and players who when they kiss that crest mean it. Not doing it for getting more money or trying make influence.

Making Jose Mourinho - a man who has never lasted a full fourth year in any previous managerial job - a hill to die on would be insane.