Leo says "Immigrants 'more likely' to work and pay tax than average Irish person"

Podge_irl

Gravelly wrote: »

The statistics contained above (which I looked at earlier really don't back up what Leo is saying. I'm not actually saying he is wrong - he quite possibly is correct, however he is the Taoiseach and shouldn't be coming out with these kind of Enda-like claims unless he can prove them.

In what way do they not back up what Leo is saying? The labour force participation rate for immigrants is higher. Ergo, the average immigrant is more likely to be working.

I don't really know what an "Enda-like" claim is but what exactly is your problem with the factually accurate statement?

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You state as fact that my guess of one in 20 being about right yet you fail to provide any links backing up your claims. I'm calling BS here.

The last census had it at 13%. Quite a bit more than 5%.

lawred2 wrote: »

It's also very unlikely that Leo is taking retired pensioners into account when talking about people of working age...

So really no idea what your point is.

Have you statistical evidence to technically disprove what he said?

Well since I literally just said in the post that you quoted he's likely technically correct I doubt I'm going to find something to show otherwise.
Anyway, the census in 2016:
Non-irish working/ labour force: 293,830 347,233 = 84.6%
Total: 2,304,037 2,006,641 = 87%

However when you consider how few pensioners are foreign-born and that kids of immigrants count as Irish then yes, the "average" immigrant is more likely to be working.

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

The last census had it at 13%. Quite a bit more than 5%.

Well since I literally just said in the post that you quoted he's likely technically correct I doubt I'm going to find something to show otherwise.
Anyway, the census in 2016:
Non-irish working/ labour force: 293,830 347,233 = 84.6%
Total: 2,304,037 2,006,641 = 87%

However when you consider how few pensioners are foreign-born and that kids of immigrants count as Irish then yes, the "average" immigrant is more likely to be working.

so what's the issue then?

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

However when you consider how few pensioners are foreign-born and that kids of immigrants count as Irish then yes, the "average" immigrant is more likely to be working.

So the pensions are being funded by foreign workers even though the foreigners aren’t of pension age and don’t rent to draw pensions.

I wonder whether old folk thank the young Irish and foreigners who work to pay tax and pay their pension. I doubt it.

Young people work hard to pay tax for pensioners while they can’t even afford basics like a house deposit. And what thanks do they get from the old gits?

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

so what's the issue then?

Well the numbers I just posted suggest that among working-age people he's wrong. Overall I just think it's a silly argument to be starting when no-one is looking for such a discussion.

For Forks Sake

JJJJNR wrote: »

He forgot the bit where they get the free stuff first (houses, buggys etc) and then go and pay tax, but still live in the free house without a mortgage.

Gravelly

Podge_irl wrote: »

In what way do they not back up what Leo is saying? The labour force participation rate for immigrants is higher. Ergo, the average immigrant is more likely to be working.

I don't really know what an "Enda-like" claim is but what exactly is your problem with the factually accurate statement?

*Sigh*

The statistics you quoted referred to "recent immigrants" which is a completely unrealistic comparison.

My problem is that the statement isn't "factually accurate" it is at best, a guess.

Podge_irl

Gravelly wrote: »

*Sigh*

The statistics you quoted referred to "recent immigrants" which is a completely unrealistic comparison.

My problem is that the statement isn't "factually accurate" it is at best, a guess.

The first two paragraphs refer to recent immigrants. The third paragraph, which is the one I quoted, refers to all immigrants.

Mickeroo

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Thats old news. Social welfare tightened things up & that no longer happens. They make non Irish sign on regularly where Irish actually sign on about once a year

That must be a fairly recent occurrence? Been about 2 and a half years since I was last on the dole but Irish still had to sign on once a month back then. They only waived the sign on if you were unlucky enough to end up on jobpath.

Gravelly

Podge_irl wrote: »

The first two paragraphs refer to recent immigrants. The third paragraph, which is the one I quoted, refers to all immigrants.

Among the many, many, issues with those figures;

Almost 53 per cent of the Brazilians who moved to Ireland in the year before census were students, the largest number of any nationality (2,370). There were also over 500 students recorded from each of China (827), France (774), America (662), Spain (572) and India (539).

Seriously like?

53% of Brazilian immigrants are "students" and so not counted among unemployment statistics.

Dakota Dan

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Eh, sorry dude, but you’re going to need more than a sample size of one to be able to dismiss what he said. Your own experiences aren’t necessarily the reality of the world.

This thread is a bit weak to be honest, and seems to be just an excuse to have a go at the Taoiseach.

For the last time, go home Yank😀😀😀

Podge_irl

Gravelly wrote: »

Among the many, many, issues with those figures;

Almost 53 per cent of the Brazilians who moved to Ireland in the year before census were students, the largest number of any nationality (2,370). There were also over 500 students recorded from each of China (827), France (774), America (662), Spain (572) and India (539).

Seriously like?

53% of Brazilian immigrants are "students" and so not counted among unemployment statistics.

And?

If your assertion is that they are in fact working then they would not be counted among the unemployment statistics either.

But by all means, continue rapidly shifting the goalposts.

Gravelly

Podge_irl wrote: »

And?

If your assertion is that they are in fact working then they would not be counted among the unemployment statistics either.

But by all means, continue rapidly shifting the goalposts.

Don't know why you are so touchy and immune to facts, but my "assertion" is that they aren't students nor are they officially working, so they are immigrants yet aren't counted among the unemployed. I'm not sure how you can't see how this would affect the figures?

Guy:Incognito

biko wrote: »

"Immigrants" are all lumped together into one group.
According to research carried out in The Guardian, 11,222 British nationals are currently claiming the dole in Ireland, almost five times the amount of Irish people (2,620) currently claiming social welfare in the UK.

There's 10 times as many people in the UK as there are here. So we're claiming in the UK at about twice the rate they're claiming here.

Podge_irl

Gravelly wrote: »

Don't know why you are so touchy and immune to facts, but my "assertion" is that they aren't students nor are they officially working, so they are immigrants yet aren't counted among the unemployed. I'm not sure how you can't see how this would affect the figures?

I'm immune to facts? How would you know considering you haven't presented any.

FutureGuy

He's dead right.

But of course he will get shat on by the pyjama brigade and their 7 kids looking for a free house and the media who fcuking lap it up.

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

Well the numbers I just posted suggest that among working-age people he's wrong. Overall I just think it's a silly argument to be starting when no-one is looking for such a discussion.

So technically correct but still wrong

Podge_irl

Gravelly wrote: »

Don't know why you are so touchy and immune to facts, but my "assertion" is that they aren't students nor are they officially working, so they are immigrants yet aren't counted among the unemployed. I'm not sure how you can't see how this would affect the figures?

Also, on the off chance you actually have canvassed or investigated every single student from every country mentioned as having more than 500 students here and have found out that every single one of them is actually not a student at all but fraudulently living in Ireland and not working - it would affect the figures yes. The participation rate would be 72.6% and still higher than for Irish people.

Your Face

The Roma work very hard to be fair.

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

You're quite boring.

Sorry I couldn't be your bar stool chum. I know you'd like nothing better than a good ol' chinwag about the state of 'dose immigants'

Tombo2001

Gravelly wrote: »

Don't know why you are so touchy and immune to facts, but my "assertion" is that they aren't students nor are they officially working, so they are immigrants yet aren't counted among the unemployed. I'm not sure how you can't see how this would affect the figures?

Yes.

And your assertion is wrong.

Because they are students. Moreover they pay a lot of money to come over here, they pay a lot of money for flights, then they pay substantial fees for their college, and they pay a lot of money for accommodation. So they bring a lot of money into the Irish economy.

Student registration data, and the substantial fees that they pay, is public data and its well documented (and you can look it up yourself if you like).

For someone to turn around and say completely off the top of their head, with zero information to back it up, that they arent actually students and are here to rip off the economy by working illegally- to be honest, I think thats extremely offensive.

The thing I have particular issue with is your reference to Brazilians. If it was American students, white rich Americans, of course there would be no issue with them. But because they are Brazilians......

Skylinehead

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Oh Leo.....



Personally I think Leo is talking crap.

link

In my own industry, there's prob 1 in every 20 that would be considered an immigrant (and I include those from within the UK in those numbers)

Just like his "look after those who get up early in the morning" budget spiel (then giving those on sw more in most cases).

I thought the country was back to almost zero employment anyway?

It looks like Leo, (Just like his predecessor) shouldn't ever be allowed to stray too far from his handlers, and seldom left to stray too far from a proof read, pre approved script.

Maybe you should have proof read the article (and your own post), you might understand it then.

1 in 20 is an immigrant? So what, what's that got to do with the price of milk?

Zero employment :pac:

tom1ie

FutureGuy wrote: »

He's dead right.

But of course he will get shat on by the pyjama brigade and their 7 kids looking for a free house and the media who fcuking lap it up.

Yeah, but what the hell is he going to do about it? Give the pyjama brigade an extra €5! Ffs!:mad:

Kivaro

seamus wrote: »

It was a narrative started by racists and anti-immigration people, that immigrants were pouring into Europe to abuse our welfare system and send the money home. You'll still hear morons repeating "true stories" from a friend's uncle's colleague's sister about the black woman who left her buggy behind at the bus stop because "they'll give me a new one", or civil servants putting people to the top of the housing list "because they're black".

Ironically those who complain the most about immigrants seem to me, to be the most likely to be reliant on social welfare themselves.

You make Ireland sound like a veritable utopian migration paradise.
And if any of us object, then we must be anti-immigrant or racist.

All one has to do is search Google for terms like "Ireland welfare fraud Nigeria". The welfare fraud by one Nigerian couple alone when they were caught earlier in the year amounted to over €400,000. Welfare fraud by Nigerians is not uncommon. It wasn't too many years ago when the Irish authorities finally caught on to the substantial amount of Nigerians withdrawing their Irish welfare money from banks in Nigeria.

Let's look at the bigger picture:
According to World Bank figures, €468m in 'remittances' was sent from Ireland to Nigeria in 2011. That's an average of more than €26,000 for each of the 17,642 Nigerian nationals in Ireland at the time, including children. This is far in excess of any other immigrant group in Ireland; groups who were far greater in numbers living in Ireland and were known to be good workers e.g. Poles. What an odd anomaly.

Look at Roma Gypsies as another example.
New crime figures yesterday show a sharp rise in violent crimes, including serious assaults, robberies, aggravated burglaries, and rapes. Is it possible that the rise in these crime figures; specifically robberies and burglaries can be attributed to the Roma Gypsy gangs roaming the country? I know of a number of local areas targeted by them and the havoc they left behind in their wake.

And regarding your quote:

Ironically those who complain the most about immigrants seem to me, to be the most likely to be reliant on social welfare themselves.

Such an disingenuous statement.
It is not all hunky dory with migration to Ireland. The country is in dire need of migrants and personally I believe they add great value and culture to our society. The need though is for working/contributing migrants and not social welfare abusers and those with criminal intent. Apparently those of us who object to the abusers and welfare fraudsters from overseas; well, we must be on welfare ourselves. What an odd statement.
We do not have to accept all migrants, but that seems to be the case at the moment.

Captain Obvious

Gravelly wrote: »

Don't know why you are so touchy and immune to facts, but my "assertion" is that they aren't students nor are they officially working, so they are immigrants yet aren't counted among the unemployed. I'm not sure how you can't see how this would affect the figures?

i don't think you know much about what is required to get a student visa.

seamus

Kivaro wrote: »

You make Ireland sound like a veritable utopian migration paradise.
And if any of us object, then we must be anti-immigrant or racist.

Nope, I clearly didn't say that.

I never said that fraud wasn't taking place or that all migrants were hard-working and honest.

Apparently those of us who object to the abusers and welfare fraudsters from overseas; well, we must be on welfare ourselves.

Nope, I didn't say that either.

Clearly it is you who is being disingenuous. I presented qualified and moderate statements, and you automatically attack extremist and absolute versions of said statements. That's called a strawman. You're arguing against things that were never said.

And apparently see it as something of a personal attack on yourself.

Dakota Dan

What exactly is he getting at with that statement? It’s fairly ironic coming from our Indian overlord.

JohnnyFlash

Dakota Dan wrote: »

What exactly is he getting at with that statement? It’s fairly ironic coming from our Indian overlord.

He’s Irish.

animaal

As has been proven in this thread, Leo is most likely correct in what he's saying. But little meaning can be attached to he statement without delving deeper into demographics etc.

Take a look at the context of his statement - he's trying to show how well we have managed to integrate immigrants into Irish society. I think it's too early to tell. Immigration into Ireland in significant numbers is relatively recent. In countries that experience ghettoism and the associated difficulties, it's often in the second or third generations that difficulties arise.

If we indeed have it right, it will be through a combination of blind luck and perhaps the attitudes of the ordinary Irish. This state seems to have no coherent strategy for immigration beyond a right-wing "immigration is good for industry" and a left-wing "immigration is good for humanity".

How much immigration is ideal for this country? Does the ideal number change as economic tides rise and fall? What is the right way to locate and care for immigrants of various category going through the immigration processes? I'm not convinced that the state is even trying to answer these questions.

lawred2

Dakota Dan wrote: »

What exactly is he getting at with that statement? It’s fairly ironic coming from our Indian overlord.

Well he's Irish but how would it be ironic even if he wasn't?

His emigrant Dad is a highly paid professional. Leo himself is a highly paid professional.

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the words irony or emigrant.

corks finest

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Oh Leo.....

Ireland had done better than its European neighbours because immigration was diverse and not confined to immigrants coming from mainly one country, he said.

In fact, he said, immigrants were very well integrated into the labour market and were “more likely to be working than the average Irish person and more likely to be paying tax”.

Personally I think Leo is talking crap.

link

In my own industry, there's prob 1 in every 20 that would be considered an immigrant (and I include those from within the UK in those numbers)

Just like his "look after those who get up early in the morning" budget spiel (then giving those on sw more in most cases).

I thought the country was back to almost zero employment anyway?

It looks like Leo, (Just like his predecessor) shouldn't ever be allowed to stray too far from his handlers, and seldom left to stray too far from a proof read, pre approved script.

Leo the Langer strikes again

corks finest

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Oh Leo.....

Ireland had done better than its European neighbours because immigration was diverse and not confined to immigrants coming from mainly one country, he said.

In fact, he said, immigrants were very well integrated into the labour market and were “more likely to be working than the average Irish person and more likely to be paying tax”.

Personally I think Leo is talking crap.

link

In my own industry, there's prob 1 in every 20 that would be considered an immigrant (and I include those from within the UK in those numbers)

Just like his "look after those who get up early in the morning" budget spiel (then giving those on sw more in most cases).

I thought the country was back to almost zero employment anyway?

It looks like Leo, (Just like his predecessor) shouldn't ever be allowed to stray too far from his handlers, and seldom left to stray too far from a proof read, pre approved script.

Leo the Langer strikes again

corks finest

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Oh Leo.....

Ireland had done better than its European neighbours because immigration was diverse and not confined to immigrants coming from mainly one country, he said.

In fact, he said, immigrants were very well integrated into the labour market and were “more likely to be working than the average Irish person and more likely to be paying tax”.

Personally I think Leo is talking crap.

link

In my own industry, there's prob 1 in every 20 that would be considered an immigrant (and I include those from within the UK in those numbers)

Just like his "look after those who get up early in the morning" budget spiel (then giving those on sw more in most cases).

I thought the country was back to almost zero employment anyway?

It looks like Leo, (Just like his predecessor) shouldn't ever be allowed to stray too far from his handlers, and seldom left to stray too far from a proof read, pre approved script.

Leo the Langer strikes again

Dakota Dan

lawred2 wrote: »

Well he's Irish but how would it be ironic even if he wasn't?

His emigrant Dad is a highly paid professional. Leo himself is a highly paid professional.

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the words irony or emigrant.

He’s Indian defending immigrants, what don’t you understand?

suicide_circus

Neocon lauds immigrants shocker

lawred2

Dakota Dan wrote: »

He’s Indian defending immigrants, what don’t you understand?

Well he's not Indian.

Even if he was born Indian and emigrated there's still no irony whatsoever.

mfceiling

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I have yet to see an irish person work in a Chinese take away or restaurant. There are industries that are almost non Irish as we no longer want to do the work

Don't want to do the work or don't get the opportunity?
A lot of the "immigrant" workers are being taken advantage of and are easier to bully into poor working conditions and low pay.
I know in construction the foreign lads are told they have to work 12 hour days and will be expected to work most weekends. Some of them have very poor English and are afraid to rock the boat as they know it will be very difficult to find other work.

tom1ie

Who cares if he’s Indian, Irish or from mars! He’s doing a really **** job of looking after the people who work for a living and pay for everything.

Allinall

tom1ie wrote: »

Who cares if he’s Indian, Irish or from mars! He’s doing a really **** job of looking after the people who work for a living and pay for everything.

Are those people not able to look after themselves ?

Why should Leo have to look after them?- whatever that means

Colonel Claptrap

My neighbour on the left is Polish and my neighbour on the right is from Newcastle

Therefore 66% of the population are immigrants.
Fake news Leo!




Give me break.

Richard Hillman

I think this is the reason why we are quite positive on immigration and why we voted to expand the EU to allow our friends from Eastern Europe into out country. They come over, they work hard, they integrate well.


Let's get one thing straight though, nobody voted for the illegal train station dwellers that hang around Germany and Italy, who's only skills are goat herding and selling selfies sticks

Faith+1

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I think this is the reason why we are quite positive on immigration and why we voted to expand the EU to allow our friends from Eastern Europe into out country. They come over, they work hard, they integrate well.

Exactly, well the 2nd time we were asked because they didn't like how we voted the first time. And us stupid paddies gave them what they wanted.

Whirl_wolle

What is an average Irish person?

I'd like Leo to describe what he thinks is an average Irish person?

tom1ie

Allinall wrote: »

Are those people not able to look after themselves ?

Why should Leo have to look after them?- whatever that means

That means reducing the burden of having to pay all the tax that supports the welfare state that’s rife in Ireland. That clear enough for you now?:rolleyes:

Church on Tuesday

Not surprised he made that comment as he is the son of an immigrant himself. Worded incredibly badly though.

It depends. Generally speaking immigrants coming into the country are here to work, I remember during the boom years the lesser jobs were occupied by immigrants as the Irish didn't want them in most cases.

Having been an immigrant myself and having to take basically whatever I could get to tide myself over, when you land in a different country it's usually to try and better yourself straight away, of course you will get the bitter racists who see immigrants as a scourge (Brexit) and a fair few here, but most just want a better life.

_Whimsical_

I feel this is not poorly worded on Leo's part but a carefully crafted step towards creating an Ireland Leo likes the look of, one where we don't discriminate on race or colour but judge people on their capacity to earn money irrespective of circumstance. One where it's ok to sow seeds of division as long as those on the receiving end of any prejudice are those down on their luck, have lost a job, are forced into being carers, are a single parent unable to afford creche and therefore work, are homeless because they can't pay a mortgage, are disabled, are off sick because they are waiting for operation in 3 years time or can't avail of mental health services.

You have to remember that his mandate was to be "a Taoiseach for people who get up early in the morning", no acknowledgement of the complex situations people find themselves in. No one likes a dole bludger but when you paint with such a wide strokes you include a wide section of people who are doing their best.

He's fully aware that these sort of comments make people go "oh yeah, maybe I shouldn't focus on immigration, maybe I should be looking down my nose at my neighbour". I'm not anti-immigration on the whole at all, and no one wants racism, but I believe there's an ongoing effort to create class division in Leo's plans for the country.

I think that in Leo's uptopian vision anyone not able to work would be scorned and looked down on, become an underclass, where it would be easy to justify not providing for them and Trinners grads etc would bask in a self congratulatory glow and low taxes.It would be so much easier than trying to fix what's broken and raise all boats.

Odhinn

Generally speaking, coming out with "x" part of the population is better than "y" is divisive and unessecary. His handlers need a better grip on his muzzle.

tom1ie

Odhinn wrote: »

Generally speaking, coming out with "x" part of the population is better than "y" is divisive and unessecary. His handlers need a better grip on his muzzle.

It’s divisive except when x population are well aware of what y population have been getting away with for years. I think he’s correct in what he says, there is too much of a burden on hard working people in this country regardless of skin colour.

_Whimsical_

tom1ie wrote: »

It’s divisive except when x population are well aware of what y population have been getting away with for years. I think he’s correct in what he says, there is too much of a burden on hard working people in this country regardless of skin colour.

Well congrats because you're taking exactly what he intended you to take from that sentence.

Except the Y section of the population are made up of hardworking people too who've had a really bad an unfair run. They could be you. Sure root out the bludgers, the people who refuse to help themselves, but don't prejudice those who cannot...and quite a section of those cannot because the state doesn't facilitate that. Those are people requiring medical treatment in order to be able to work but are stuck on waiting lists, those forced to care for a relation, taking a burden of institutional care off the state but not given enough home help etc to allow them a life outside the home, those who cannot afford creche care, the list goes on.
It could be done, it would just take more effort than pitting one section of society against another in order to create an underclass that it's easier to justify ignoring.
It's all fun and games until fate steps in and steers your life off course and you don't have the opportunities Leo has. It would be so foolish for us a society to swallow this stuff unquestioningly, without asking what's in it for politicians.

We have problems in the country, they are fixable with some genuine will and with the funds the we do have directed more carefully and honestly.

James Brown

I love the way anything wrong with society is everyone's fault but government.

Housing is the LA's, Health is the unions, not doing well? you must be Irish and looking for a forever home, something for nothing.
Anyone on welfare or the homeless list is conning the system. Get to f***

Fine Gael are the Tories of the 1980's.