Formula 1 2018 - Round 17 – Japan

weisses

vectra wrote: »

Push Kimi off the track and had the cheek to blame Kimi for it :pac::pac:
Then he cut Vettel off and put him to the back of the grid.
I remember watching races when drivers had and showed respect for the title fighters and would absolutely not get in their way.
What is wrong with this dope?

Vettel couldn't overtake in that spot ..Its his own stupid mistake and should have been penalized for forcing another driver of the track or causing a collision.

The only dope here is Vettel who has only himself to blame for messing up his title chances.
Max was racing for a podium ... Vettel, being smart would have waited for the chicane or DRS... But he showed he is immature an not really patient .. a driver who cannot deal with the pressure

There is only one dope here

Vettel had enough help from Ferrari teams .... Dont ever complain about F1 being boring if you want everyone to make way for people who are fighting for the championship ...

vectra

weisses wrote: »

Vettel couldn't overtake in that spot ..Its his own stupid mistake and should have been penalized for forcing another driver of the track or causing a collision.

The only dope here is Vettel who has only himself to blame for messing up his title chances.
Max was racing for a podium ... Vettel, being smart would have waited for the chicane or DRS... But he showed he is immature an not really patient .. a driver who cannot deal with the pressure

There is only one dope here

Vettel had enough help from Ferrari teams .... Dont ever complain about F1 being boring if you want everyone to make way for people who are fighting for the championship ...

I must have missed something
Who did Vettel force off the track?
I saw Max do it to Kimi alright.

weisses

vectra wrote: »

I must have missed something
Who did Vettel force off the track?
I saw Max do it to Kimi alright.

His stupid move trying to overtake max where there was no room resulting in hom htting verstappen who was going airborne for a sec forcing him to go wide .

The only good thing coming out of that move is that Vettel spun

Ghost Train

For me it was a bit too risky a move by Vettel. I thought the move was okay and he was mostly along side, but Max is not really a driver to take risk with. Wonder did he know Verstappen had the 5sec penalty, worst case he should have been able to pass during the stop

pjohnson

There was no blue flag so Max was racing. Absolutely no need to just let Vettel pass him.

Rossi IRL

Ghost Train wrote: »

Wonder did he know Verstappen had the 5sec penalty, worst case he should have been able to pass during the stop

Yes after the race Vettel said he knew about the 5 seconds.

ELM327

weisses wrote: »

Vettel couldn't overtake in that spot ..Its his own stupid mistake and should have been penalized for forcing another driver of the track or causing a collision.

The only dope here is Vettel who has only himself to blame for messing up his title chances.
Max was racing for a podium ... Vettel, being smart would have waited for the chicane or DRS... But he showed he is immature an not really patient .. a driver who cannot deal with the pressure

There is only one dope here

Vettel had enough help from Ferrari teams .... Dont ever complain about F1 being boring if you want everyone to make way for people who are fighting for the championship ...

That's funny, because he and many others overtook there at various points in the race.
The only difference is the guy they were overtaking had the sense not to drive into the overtaker! Crashtappen at it again, twice in this race.

Joeface

Don't think vettel could wait for a pit stop pass and penalty time. If he waited for that I am sure the mercs of Lewis and bottas would have pushed on. Vettel had to be on them as early as possible.

It didn't work out he was close but not close enough . He made that move on half the cars he passed when trying to recover something and every other one worked out.

Max was not at fault there really either. An actual racing incident.He was however totally at fault for Kimi. He should have admitted that in his interviews after the race. Bit of a failure on his side.

ELM327

pjohnson wrote: »

There was no blue flag so Max was racing. Absolutely no need to just let Vettel pass him.

No one wants anyone to let them pass, merely to leave enough space and not to close the door at the last minute and cause a collision.


Max should have taken a penalty for that one too imo

vectra

ELM327 wrote: »

No one wants anyone to let them pass, merely to leave enough space and not to close the door at the last minute and cause a collision.


Max should have taken a penalty for that one too imo

Well,
The way I see it is be a fair sportman and don't get involved in the WDC if you are well out of contention.
He knew damn well it was Vettel behind him and shouldnt have shut the door.
I think Hamilton is throwing Max a few quid at this stage :pac::pac:

Joeface

Lot of teams got the plans wrong today... Toro Rosso really screwed themselves when they clearly had a car to be in the points. Gasly suffered the soft tyre fault if you push to hard on your first laps they blister and die.

weisses

ELM327 wrote: »

That's funny, because he and many others overtook there at various points in the race.
The only difference is the guy they were overtaking had the sense not to drive into the overtaker! Crashtappen at it again, twice in this race.

The difference was most drivers he overtook (let him pass) had a ferrari engine in the back ...They where driving a different line then Verstappen as well

Didnt you watch the race ?

weisses

vectra wrote: »

Well,
The way I see it is be a fair sportman and don't get involved in the WDC if you are well out of contention.
He knew damn well it was Vettel behind him and shouldnt have shut the door.
I think Hamilton is throwing Max a few quid at this stage :pac::pac:

Maybe Hamilton and Vettel should have a race at 11 am ..Just between the two of them ... And then pray it doesn't rain .. We al know Vettel cannot handle a few drops

No sportsman will go out of the way during a Grand Prix when competing for a podium ...suggesting otherwise is just ridiculous and a case of fanboy-ism

ELM327

weisses wrote: »

The difference was most drivers he overtook (let him pass) had a ferrari engine in the back ...They where driving a different line then Verstappen as well

Didnt you watch the race ?

No I didnt watch the race, I just guessed where the overtake was and how it happened.
Although by your description it is demonstrably clear that it is in fact yourself who has not watched the race, at least, not with any comprehension of what was happening.

Mitch Connor

vectra wrote: »

Well,
The way I see it is be a fair sportman and don't get involved in the WDC if you are well out of contention.
He knew damn well it was Vettel behind him and shouldnt have shut the door.
I think Hamilton is throwing Max a few quid at this stage :pac::pac:

I thought what max ment about fair last time out was that he was only in a position to pass cause back markers were screwing ham over, not getting out of the way in a correct manner - not that passing Hamilton would be unfair in terms of taking points off him in a title race generally.

Had Hamilton been behind him or max simply faster I think it would have seen max fully going for it rather than hand points to him.

pjohnson

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I thought what max ment about fair last time out was that he was only in a position to pass cause back markers were screwing ham over, not getting out of the way in a correct manner - not that passing Hamilton would be unfair in terms of taking points off him in a title race generally.

Had Hamilton been behind him or max simply faster I think it would have seen max fully going for it rather than hand points to him.

That was my understanding. The two of them in a straight race Max is taking it. Throw in Sirotkin/Grosjean (I think) interfering with Hamilton and he's not gunna take advantage of the back markers.

Mitch Connor

pjohnson wrote: »

That was my understanding. The two of them in a straight race Max is taking it. Throw in Sirotkin/Grosjean (I think) interfering with Hamilton and he's not gunna take advantage of the back markers.

Of course you can argue that negotiating back markers is just part of the game and if max has a chance because of their shenanigans he should still be taking it.

vectra

weisses wrote: »

The difference was most drivers he overtook (let him pass) had a ferrari engine in the back ...They where driving a different line then Verstappen as well

Didnt you watch the race ?

Hmm,
From what I saw, the race had cars with Ferrari engines, Merc engines, Honda engines, and Renault engines.
Vettel ended up 6th.
Which in my view he passed cars with engines from all manufacturers,
Are you saying the Ferrari engined cars jumped out of his way?

weisses wrote: »

Maybe Hamilton and Vettel should have a race at 11 am ..Just between the two of them ... And then pray it doesn't rain .. We al know Vettel cannot handle a few drops

No sportsman will go out of the way during a Grand Prix when competing for a podium ...suggesting otherwise is just ridiculous and a case of fanboy-ism

Thats nonsence about Vettel and Hamilton racing alone. ( though it might not be a bad idea to seperate the man from the boy :P

Nobody asking anyone to go out of the way
But for a driver that is nowhere in the title race to block one of the two involved is bad sportsmanship.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I thought what max ment about fair last time out was that he was only in a position to pass cause back markers were screwing ham over, not getting out of the way in a correct manner - not that passing Hamilton would be unfair in terms of taking points off him in a title race generally.

Had Hamilton been behind him or max simply faster I think it would have seen max fully going for it rather than hand points to him.

Well, According to other members here Max races for position.
So therefore shouldn't he overtake any car no matter what the circumstances?
Do you think Hamilton would do the same to Max had it been the other way round?

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Of course you can argue that negotiating back markers is just part of the game and if max has a chance because of their shenanigans he should still be taking it.

Exactly my point
Pass anyone at any cost.
Or play fair,
Just don't go both ways.

chicorytip

Joeface wrote:

Max was not at fault there really either. An actual racing incident.He was however totally at fault for Kimi. He should have admitted that in his interviews after the race. Bit of a failure on his side.

He was completely at fault for the Vettel incident also. He's like a racehorse wearing blinkers such is his lack of positional sense when in close combat. The level of competence of the stewarding was, yet again, called into question today. Tom Kristiensen?? Who is he?

ayux4rj6zql2ph

chicorytip wrote: »

He was completely at fault for the Vettel incident also. He's like a racehorse wearing blinkers such is his lack of positional sense when in close combat. The level of competence of the stewarding was, yet again, called into question today. Tom Kristiensen?? Who is he?

An ex Tyrrell test driver I think. Never raced in F1 but has had success in sports cars.

donspeekinglesh

Noemi Rotten Tinderbox wrote: »

An ex Tyrrell test driver I think. Never raced in F1 but has had success in sports cars.

That's one way of putting it. He's a nine time Le Mans winner. What he doesn't know about racing isn't worth knowing. But the driver steward is only one voice in the steward's room.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

That's one way of putting it. He's a nine time Le Mans winner. What he doesn't know about racing isn't worth knowing. But the driver steward is only one voice in the steward's room.

If you recall why driver stewards were brought in many years ago was the stewards of the day were handing out penalties incorrectly or for the wrong reasons, while he never raced in F1 he’s still an experienced racing driver, should it be limited to only those who raced in F1? My only fear there would be Jonathan Palmer as a steward, of its anything like his commentary. All about himself.

In relation to the Le Mans success, I didn’t know that, it’s not a category of racing I take much interest in.

Harika

Noemi Rotten Tinderbox wrote: »

If you recall why driver stewards were brought in many years ago was the stewards of the day were handing out penalties incorrectly or for the wrong reasons, while he never raced in F1 he’s still an experienced racing driver, should it be limited to only those who raced in F1? My only fear there would be Jonathan Palmer as a steward, of its anything like his commentary. All about himself.

If you spin this logic on, it should only be ex F1 drivers of the newest generation. What does Brundle or Coulthard know about the new engines and changed cockpit positions or the impact of the halo? They also should have been competitive and not in active racing anymore.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Harika wrote: »

If you spin this logic on, it should only be ex F1 drivers of the newest generation. What does Brundle or Coulthard know about the new engines and changed cockpit positions or the impact of the halo? They also should have been competitive and not in active racing anymore.

More recent departures such as Button, Massa & Webber then?

Harika

Noemi Rotten Tinderbox wrote: »

More recent departures such as Button, Massa & Webber then?

That was used before, like Hill was a stewart at some point and had to judge Schumacher. He then resigned.
I don't see having Button beef with someone, but Webber judging Vettel? or Massa Alonso?
Enjoy this controversy

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Harika wrote: »

That was used before, like Hill was a stewart at some point and had to judge Schumacher. He then resigned.
I don't see having Button beef with someone, but Webber judging Vettel? or Massa Alonso?
Enjoy this controversy

Yes Monaco 2010 he penalised Schumacher for overtaking Alonso, that could have been seen as a personal vendetta so he rightly resigned.

Button only ever really had an issue with Villeneuve, but had a good relationship with everyone else thereafter.

Webber almost certainly retired due to his rift with Vettel, Massa/Alonso was a team game issue more than anything else.

Bring in drivers so who have no affiliation to the current grid and keep it that way?

Harika

Noemi Rotten Tinderbox wrote: »

Bring in drivers so who have no affiliation to the current grid and keep it that way?

Yeah that's Palmer, Kristenssen and so on.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Harika wrote: »

Yeah that's Palmer, Kristenssen and so on.

Having looked up Kristenssen he has a good CV, and from what I can see is more than competent for the job, Having listened back on some of Palmer's commentary 93-96 he was mostly about himself, Portugal 1996 being the standout point for me when he tried to take over from Murray Walker as Villeneuve was going around the outside of Schumacher. Kimi is the longest driver there from next season, beginning in 2001, so ex driver who has raced in F1 since then unless they were only active in 2010-2011 which means they never lined up against him should be kept out? Impartiality is the name of the game here admittedly, and the Damon Hill fiasco at Monaco was a big boo boo there. Could he not have opted out of being formally involved in that particular decision and acted as an advisor and let the other 3 sign off on it? the FIA were quick to change the rules after that.

flazio

I think Harika might be referring to Jolyen rather than Jonathan Palmer.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

flazio wrote: »

I think Harika might be referring to Jolyen rather than Jonathan Palmer.

It was myself who first referenced Palmer, I was referring to Jonathan rather than Jolyon, maybe Harika was indeed referring to son rather than father.

tigerboon

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Noemi Rotten Tinderbox wrote: »

An ex Tyrrell test driver I think. Never raced in F1 but has had success in sports cars.

That's one way of putting it. He's a nine time Le Mans winner. What he doesn't know about racing isn't worth knowing. But the driver steward is only one voice in the steward's room.

Competed in DTM for years as well. DTM is probably the premier league of touring car racing and not too far off F1 standard

Harika

Noemi Rotten Tinderbox wrote: »

It was myself who first referenced Palmer, I was referring to Jonathan rather than Jolyon, maybe Harika was indeed referring to son rather than father.

Nah I mean Jonathan.
I think Coulthard or Hill once mentioned that it makes no difference if you drive the latest version of F1 as the basic car physics are still the same, like apex, breaking points, slipstream and so on.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

tigerboon wrote: »

Competed in DTM for years as well. DTM is probably the premier league of touring car racing and not too far off F1 standard

DTM is something I am kind of half tuned into, some aspiring or former winners have come from/gone to the series, which must mean it indeed rated highly.

H3llR4iser

ELM327 wrote: »

That's funny, because he and many others overtook there at various points in the race.
The only difference is the guy they were overtaking had the sense not to drive into the overtaker! Crashtappen at it again, twice in this race.

Joeface wrote: »

Don't think vettel could wait for a pit stop pass and penalty time. If he waited for that I am sure the mercs of Lewis and bottas would have pushed on. Vettel had to be on them as early as possible.

It didn't work out he was close but not close enough . He made that move on half the cars he passed when trying to recover something and every other one worked out.

Max was not at fault there really either. An actual racing incident.He was however totally at fault for Kimi. He should have admitted that in his interviews after the race. Bit of a failure on his side.

Without going into too much length about it, it can be seen as a racing incident; Truth is that for some reason the Ferrari was very strong between Degner and Spoon, but not so much from 130R and the first corner (Vettel did the vast majority of his overtakes at Spoon), Seb HAD to get past the RB quickly if he had any hope of putting pressure on the Mercs (who were cruising at the time), tried a bit of a divebomb. Max was caught napping, left the door open then hastily closed it. Could have gone both ways. I have a feeling that was it Ricciardo rather than Vettel, people here would have a very different view of the incident anyway.

That said, I've been an avid F1 follower for over 30 years: I've seen drivers punting each other off track intentionally, I've seen silly revenges being pulled off on track, I've seen "intimidation" moves (who remembers Mansell's overtake on Senna at the '91 Spanish Grand Prix?), heck I've seen drivers getting out of their cars and engaging in fisticuffs.

What I've never seen before is drivers being "praised" as "great racers" because their opponents need to be "careful" and drive around them if they want to overtake. It's silly, it's unsporting and it's not "real racing"; The fact that everyone else needs to be "aware" of Magnussen and Verstappen speaks volumes of their antics. The Dane's moves are now well above the measure, no need to even comment; Max's move on Raikkonen is a textbook example of "what not to do on a racetrack" - going off and then rejoin the track while trying to block everyone behind you. It's something that belongs in online Forza races, really - and I'm not saying this because they're young, I play myself. The mentality is the problem, they are clinically incapable of accepting when they've been beaten or made a mistake.

You can race hard AND fair - Hamilton could have punted Vettel off the track in Austria, but he didn't. Seb could have done the same to Lewis in Sochi, but he didn't.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Harika wrote: »

Nah I mean Jonathan.
I think Coulthard or Hill once mentioned that it makes no difference if you drive the latest version of F1 as the basic car physics are still the same, like apex, breaking points, slipstream and so on.

It is a valid point. What has changed is how artificial it has become over the years, When was the last time since the 2014 rule changes has anyone seen a Mercedes engine blowing up and I mean literally going bang in the same way as Coulthard in Monza 1998 or Hakkinen at Indianapolis 2000? Maybe it did happen in recent times, I just can't remember it. All that is going to happen from next season with Sky having the exclusive deal is the numbers will drop even further, I mean come on, who the hell wants to David "it's lights out and away we go" Croft or Anthony "Ant" Davidson, I mean what I've said, I am cancelling my subscription and use the extra few bob for a pint or 2, at least that way i'll get real value for my money.

Harika

Not blowing up engines are artificial?
It happens because of the professionalisation of F1. In the 90s there were still a lot of cowboys active, like the guy who created a F1 team with the crew that maintained his car collection. Manufacturers then kicked in and brought industry standards where they didn't like engines blowing up, so a lot of R&D is going into that area too and not only speed.
I read once that the Williams that won the 1996 WDC costed 5 Million Euro. Nowadays the F1 engine alone costs an estimated 16 Million Euro and maybe 10 Million euro for the car.
And I think Hamilton engines exploded in Malaysia 2016?

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Harika wrote: »

Not blowing up engines are artificial?
It happens because of the professionalisation of F1. In the 90s there were still a lot of cowboys active, like the guy who created a F1 team with the crew that maintained his car collection. Manufacturers then kicked in and brought industry standards where they didn't like engines blowing up, so a lot of R&D is going into that area too and not only speed.
I read once that the Williams that won the 1996 WDC costed 5 Million Euro. Nowadays the F1 engine alone costs an estimated 16 Million Euro and maybe 10 Million euro for the car.
And I think Hamilton engines exploded in Malaysia 2016?

Yeah that’s probably the biggest Mercedes blow up in years, is it Nick Wirth and Simtek you’re referring to?

LollipopJimmy

Noemi Rotten Tinderbox wrote: »

Yes Monaco 2010 he penalised Schumacher for overtaking Alonso, that could have been seen as a personal vendetta so he rightly resigned.

And that was actually a cracking move, classic Schumacher