Star Wars: The Mandalorian [** Spoilers **] [Disney+] (US Pace)

Foxtrol

pixelburp wrote: »

And all that is fine, but as there was literally nothing in that episode that developed either character or story (arguably Mando's helmet philosophy but that didn't DEPEND on this particular story), then what did this episode bring to the table? To my mind, nothing. Honestly? I was bored outta my brains, and whatever else The Mandolorian has been, it has never been tedious.

I'm not watching the show from the mindset of condensing it into a film, more that when no moment could be extracted and held up as an example of "well, if nothing else, THIS happened and furthered character or action", then a question to be asked is "what was the point of this?" beyond some directorial experience for Howard Jr? (and yes, obviously beyond superficial enjoyment for its own sake, so can we assume that this chat extends past that simple metric? ).

Even in 22 episode shows, you'll find "filler" episodes will tend to bookend the wheel-spinning with some element of the broader story fleshed out; usually as enticement to keep watching by means of a cliffhanger - but at least the cliffhanger's there. I actually gawped at the TV when Episode 4 just ended. No surprise of a Star Destroyer hovering over orbit, or Mando's new ally sending a coded message to a mystery listener - nothing. We got 41 minutes of a style of episode even Stargate, Firefly, Star Trek and dozens of other SciFi shows would find a little played out.

And like I said, when the show sets its stall out as 8 episodes, there's a statement being made there about the type of narrative we're going to get - or rather, that could be reasonably expected. To be fair, Episode 3 absolutely nailed that expectation, being a lean piece of storytelling that gave us loads of character, action, plot, everything. Episodes 1 and 2 dithered, and had definite filler (Blerg riding, step forward), but still got the story going. Episode 4 was TNG Episode #426.

TL:DR? You could totally skip this episode.

Big difference between could and should here. Even if it was originally the assumption you made, the first few episodes should have made you adjust it.

You could 'totally' skip many episodes of most slow burning shows. I've never made it through all of Mad Men and struggled greatly with the first few seasons of Breaking Bad. I would have preferred for this to be already delving deeper into the secrets of the Mando society or Baby Yoda secrets or the rise of the First Order but after the first 2 episodes it was clear that isn't what we're getting, definitely not at a very fast pace.

I don't see how you can say this episode did nothing to develop the main character or the relationship between the two main characters. The Mando showed further growth in caring and helping others and his relationship with the Child developed further. We don't know where this is going but this gave it time to breath a bit rather than them tussling with empire or other bounty hunters again straight away. It mightn't be what you wanted or how you wanted it but it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

pixelburp

Foxtrol wrote: »

Big difference between could and should here. Even if it was originally the assumption you made, the first few episodes should have made you adjust it.

You could 'totally' skip many episodes of most slow burning shows. I've never made it through all of Mad Men and struggled greatly with the first few seasons of Breaking Bad. I would have preferred for this to be already delving deeper into the secrets of the Mando society or Baby Yoda secrets or the rise of the First Order but after the first 2 episodes it was clear that isn't what we're getting, definitely not at a very fast pace.

I don't see how you can say this episode did nothing to develop the main character or the relationship between the two main characters. The Mando showed further growth in caring and helping others and his relationship with the Child developed further. We don't know where this is going but this gave it time to breath a bit rather than them tussling with empire or other bounty hunters again straight away. It mightn't be what you wanted or how you wanted it but it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

And I disagree with the above so *shrug* can't expand any further without repeating myself, so think this is a case of agreeing to disagree. Not going to die on a hill over a single episode: I found #4 genuinely boring and rote - probably because I've seen episodes like this 100s of times; I don't believe anything new was learned because Episodes 1 through 3 already gave us an idea of who Mando was & is as a man (can't get more representative of empathy than protecting the child). And for a series a mere 8 episodes long that made it feel curiously pointless.

AMKC

I must say I have enjoyed all 4 episodes of this so far. It is well made, well directed, well acted and it even has humour in it too. It looks great as well. Loved the new armour he got. Hope we get to see Cara again. I thought the fight scene at the end of episode 3 and the scene going from the planet through the clouds and then into space was really well done. I also thought the Jawa crawler was really well done as well. If I could find anything wrong and this is nitpicking it is that the titles for each episode make them a bit predictable.

leggo

I absolutely HATE people going on about ‘filler’ in fantasy/sci-fi stories. Part of the joy of fantasy is getting to just spend time in a different world, seeing how people would live and just being with characters. When shows end, that’s the stuff you miss, for example the highlights of this show are the moments of cuteness you get with Baby Yoda.

The Empire is still around years after they were supposed to have been extinguished, the New Republic is struggling, the First Order is yet to rise, we may be dealing with Yoda’s freaking love child...they have a plan and answers are coming. Let us get to them naturally and just appreciate getting to hang out in the Star Wars universe every week without having to focus on the Skywalker saga. That was the entire appeal of the show to me before it even began.

Everyone is entitled to like or dislike what they wish, but for me you’re missing the point if you’re spending all the time looking for plot twists and answers. Just chill out and enjoy the view. I’d like to be able to enjoy one Star Wars thing released in my lifetime without it being ruined by toxic fandom.

Agent Coulson

Is Baby Yoda Rey's Daddy she always looked a little green to me.

Foxtrol

pixelburp wrote: »

And I disagree with the above so *shrug* can't expand any further without repeating myself, so think this is a case of agreeing to disagree. Not going to die on a hill over a single episode: I found #4 genuinely boring and rote - probably because I've seen episodes like this 100s of times; I don't believe anything new was learned because Episodes 1 through 3 already gave us an idea of who Mando was & is as a man (can't get more representative of empathy than protecting the child). And for a series a mere 8 episodes long that made it feel curiously pointless.

We can happily agree to disagree on what we enjoy but there is a fundamental difference in finding something boring or feeling you've seen similar in the past and making claims that there was no character or relationship development.

Yes, we have seen parts of his character in 1-3 but we see him grow even within different parts of this episode. He initially didn't want to go to help the villagers as they couldn't afford him, only going when it suited his purposes (in a typical bounty hunter mindset), and you can see him caring about the people there. Similarly there are plenty of moments during this episode where you can see his and baby yoda's bond growing further. It is far from deep stuff but it fleshes out him and that relationship that could directly impact choices he makes further down the line.

pixelburp

leggo wrote: »

I absolutely HATE people going on about ‘filler’ in fantasy/sci-fi stories. Part of the joy of fantasy is getting to just spend time in a different world, seeing how people would live and just being with characters. When shows end, that’s the stuff you miss, for example the highlights of this show are the moments of cuteness you get with Baby Yoda.

...

Everyone is entitled to like or dislike what they wish, but for me you’re missing the point if you’re spending all the time looking for plot twists and answers. Just chill out and enjoy the view. I’d like to be able to enjoy one Star Wars thing released in my lifetime without it being ruined by toxic fandom.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but mine is "toxic" because I was disappointed by a single episode?

You enjoy these worlds in whatever way that pleases you, and more power to you though if it's "ruined" by mild rebukes, I'd stay off the internet; but forgive me for being a bit disappointed that having waited a lifetime for a Star Wars TV show, one of its episodes is a rehash of a Stargate story. Right down to the scruffy farmer clothes

Toxic. Crikey.

leggo

I wasn’t saying *your* opinion, specifically, is toxic. Certainly what you’re saying is something I’ve seen trotted out a fair bit. I’m saying Star Wars in general has gotten a reputation for toxic fandom (and rightfully so, the actor who played Jar-Jar Binks confessed to feeling suicidal after TPM was released) due to fans criticising it for not fulfilling their specific expectations. The Last Jedi was a largely excellent piece of work that suffered from fan backlash because of fans claiming ownership of the material and rules of the universe when they really had no right to. Fan entitlement is slowly making it impossible for them to make anything new in this universe without eventually running into inescapable backlash regardless of what they put out.

And, even in your critique of it there, you bring up said expectations in saying that you’ve waited “years” for this TV show. How many years you’ve waited isn’t actually anything to do with the episode, that’s an absolutely irrelevant point to bring up. The people who wrote, directed and performed in it’s brief wasn’t to fulfil pixelburp’s years of specific expectations for what a Star Wars TV show ‘should’ be, it was to supply an entertaining 38 mins for people to hang out in the Star Wars universe with these characters. If you view and judge each episode through that lens, I assure you you are only going to be let down every single time. And I can say that with 100% certainty because I know for a fact that their job intention isn’t to satisfy your specific expectations and wishes for what a Star Wars TV show could be. You can’t write a story that encompasses the individual hopes of millions of people at the same time, that’s an impossible task. Their job is to tell this specific story and that’s the merit they should be judged on. Judging them instead on impossible expectations to encompass years of personal hopes you have that they can’t possibly be responsible for is, unfortunately, a toxic situation.

Stop moaning ffs

For those still complaining
Go back to the OT

The empire, with a star destroyer overheard and all its tech, couldn’t find droids in the dessert


Yet Luke could find R2 on his crappy landspeeders radar

Varik

Generally thought the episode was weaker than the rest so far, seemed rushed as there should have been something more leading into this and they should have spent more time in the village.

So star wars is a western with samurai wizards, and we got our magnificent two & half. Think it should have been longer or been 2 episodes. Like 7S & M7 have the villages spend a bit more time looking for help in the town, and then a bit more time in the village so I care at all for anyone.

pixelburp

leggo wrote: »

I wasn’t saying *your* opinion, specifically, is toxic. Certainly what you’re saying is something I’ve seen trotted out a fair bit. I’m saying Star Wars in general has gotten a reputation for toxic fandom (and rightfully so, the actor who played Jar-Jar Binks confessed to feeling suicidal after TPM was released) due to fans criticising it for not fulfilling their specific expectations. The Last Jedi was a largely excellent piece of work that suffered from fan backlash because of fans claiming ownership of the material and rules of the universe when they really had no right to. Fan entitlement is slowly making it impossible for them to make anything new in this universe without eventually running into inescapable backlash regardless of what they put out.

Ah, so I'm not toxic, I'm just "entitled", for expounding that a single episode of a TV show wasn't great; TBH whether meant or not, you're coming off super snarky and a little passive aggressive about this. Come one. You're literally having a go because I'm not appreciating the show correctly in your eyes?

Like, if you read my original thoughts, I said "Again, this wasn't a bad piece of entertainment by any metric..."; yes I was bored by it all as said to foxtrol, but because I'd seen this plot a thousand times before, and YES, while superficially entertaining the episode didn't engage to the same degree as previous episodes. You're happy to just pop onto other worlds and look around, I'm not & hoped for something more interesting done in this exotic universe. Both views are valid.

So I didn't like Episode 4, I've liked the rest of the series on balance, but and so far the debate has been pretty civil IMO, even in disagreement.

leggo wrote: »

And, even in your critique of it there, you bring up said expectations in saying that you’ve waited “years” for this TV show. How many years you’ve waited isn’t actually anything to do with the episode, that’s an absolutely irrelevant point to bring up.

It's relevant in the sense that being the first of something puts it on a pedestal, and ignoring that context (that it IS the first Star Wars [live action] TV show, that's a pretty big deal whether you accept it or not) ignores that it's going to be judged on a different standard to other TV shows. This production has a budget that would make - say - The Expanse & about the entire SciFi stable of the CW, weep with jealousy. I'm not going to pretend I wasn't disappointed that the first proper visit to a planet could be pulled straight from Stargate - and nothing be out of place. That's just a bit underwhelming.

This thread alone has cultivated far more chatter, theorising and speculation than other SciFi TV show threads as far as I can see. Why is that?

Because it's Star Wars. It's not without reason this has been pirated in the millions, both being a curse and blessing. And whatever you may think of its fandom, there's a lot either expected, hoped, or presumed about this show. Be that expectation earned or not.

leggo

You keep speaking to me as if I specifically addressed you and are taking this personally. I never said you were toxic or entitled, I literally stopped and clarified that. I said certain viewpoints came from a toxic or entitled place, and that can happen, we all have a perspective which we use to judge everything and “This TV show should be what I want/expect it to be” is an entitled viewpoint. You’ve taken it personally and seem to want an argument with me and I just don’t have the time or energy for that man, sorry. Just accept that that’s my viewpoint and move on.

pixelburp

That's not how I read your first post, but fair enough.

silverharp

leggo wrote: »

You keep speaking to me as if I specifically addressed you and are taking this personally. I never said you were toxic or entitled, I literally stopped and clarified that. I said certain viewpoints came from a toxic or entitled place, and that can happen, we all have a perspective which we use to judge everything and “This TV show should be what I want/expect it to be” is an entitled viewpoint. You’ve taken it personally and seem to want an argument with me and I just don’t have the time or energy for that man, sorry. Just accept that that’s my viewpoint and move on.

You make it sound like its a bad thing ;-) , surely its just part of the fabric ? something doesn’t become the number 1 movie pop culture icon for nothing. The rewards are phenomenal for anyone involved so they ought to be prepared to take the heat that comes with that. Film makers should be creatively free for sure , in saying that I don’t think the hard core fans are necessarily prescriptive , more keeping the producers and directors honest.

tigger123

silverharp wrote: »

You make it sound like its a bad thing ;-) , surely its just part of the fabric ? something doesn’t become the number 1 movie pop culture icon for nothing. The rewards are phenomenal for anyone involved so they ought to be prepared to take the heat that comes with that. Film makers should be creatively free for sure , in saying that I don’t think the hard core fans are necessarily prescriptive , more keeping the producers and directors honest.

"... keeping the producers and directors honest" almost sounds like you're saying the constant whining about the new Star Wars is adding something to the overall creative process.

silverharp

tigger123 wrote: »

"... keeping the producers and directors honest" almost sounds like you're saying the constant whining about the new Star Wars is adding something to the overall creative process.

Obviously didn’t work in relation to Disney Star Wars :pac: <edit> may have had a positive effect on the Mandalorian though?

Talisman

Varik wrote: »

So star wars is a western with samurai wizards, and we got our magnificent two & half.

I think it's in the "Easy Riders, Raging Bulls" book that this is exactly what George Lucas had in mind when he created Star Wars. It was originally inspired by the Kurosawa movies and Saturday morning TV Westerns.

Alan Dean Foster was responsible for the creation of the back story of Palpatine amongst other things. He created much of the Star Wars universe for the novelisation of an original script for the movie. His second Star Wars book, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, is an insight into what Lucas had originally planned before Star Wars became a runaway success that took on a life of its own. Rather than a B-movie type sequel story that the book delivered, we got Empire Strikes Back instead.

This series definitely feels like Lucas being true to the original genre idea that he had for Star Wars. He's constrained by fitting it within a universe over which he does not have control which is probably a very good thing. If it wasn't Star Wars, there's no way anyone would give George Lucas the opportunity to create a tv show like this. I don't think anybody should expect to experience anything ground breaking, it will be a rehash of storylines we have seen many times before, but set in a universe that fans have always wanted to experience.

Can't help at laugh at how our lead reacts to people sneaking up on him. Two strangers in a forest? Ignore them. Little girl walking by a hut entrance? HIGH ALERT!

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

And all that is fine, but as there was literally nothing in that episode that developed either character or story (arguably Mando's helmet philosophy but that didn't DEPEND on this particular story), then what did this episode bring to the table? To my mind, nothing. Honestly? I was bored outta my brains, and whatever else The Mandolorian has been, it has never been tedious.

I'm not watching the show from the mindset of condensing it into a film, more that when no moment could be extracted and held up as an example of "well, if nothing else, THIS happened and furthered character or action", then a question to be asked is "what was the point of this?" beyond some directorial experience for Howard Jr? (and yes, obviously beyond superficial enjoyment for its own sake, so can we assume that this chat extends past that simple metric? ).

Even in 22 episode shows, you'll find "filler" episodes will tend to bookend the wheel-spinning with some element of the broader story fleshed out; usually as enticement to keep watching by means of a cliffhanger - but at least the cliffhanger's there. I actually gawped at the TV when Episode 4 just ended. No surprise of a Star Destroyer hovering over orbit, or Mando's new ally sending a coded message to a mystery listener - nothing. We got 41 minutes of a style of episode even Stargate, Firefly, Star Trek and dozens of other SciFi shows would find a little played out.

And like I said, when the show sets its stall out as 8 episodes, there's a statement being made there about the type of narrative we're going to get - or rather, that could be reasonably expected. To be fair, Episode 3 absolutely nailed that expectation, being a lean piece of storytelling that gave us loads of character, action, plot, everything. Episodes 1 and 2 dithered, and had definite filler (Blerg riding, step forward), but still got the story going. Episode 4 was TNG Episode #426.

TL:DR? You could totally skip this episode.

I am so, so happy they didn't go with a cliffhanger of any description. Is this really something you want? For a split second I thought they were gonna end the episode while the crosshairs were over the baby. I feel cliffhangers are put in place where they can't form actual drama so they leave the audience in an agonising lurch to force us to come back. They are a hallmark of bad TV. I stuck with The Walking Dead for far longer than I should because of them.

pixelburp

Deleted User wrote: »

I am so, so happy they didn't go with a cliffhanger of any description. Is this really something you want? For a split second I thought they were gonna end the episode while the crosshairs were over the baby. I feel cliffhangers are put in place where they can't form actual drama so they leave the audience in an agonising lurch to force us to come back. They are a hallmark of bad TV. I stuck with The Walking Dead for far longer than I should because of them.

No, not something I wanted, just something that surprised & disappointed that the story ended where and how it did. Someone called it a "bottle episode" and were corrected, but it was definitely self-contained in a bottled sense, and to a degree that left me a bit underwhelmed.

And there are good cliffhangers out there, they're just horribly overused by writers who either don't understand them, or can't write good ones that don't feel super cheap when applied; as you say, Walking Dead is / was notorious for that (I bailed long before the whole Glenn or Negan controversies).

Anyway, another fun episode. Mandalorian won't go down as the greatest TV show of all time but I'm definitely enjoying it. Some weird direction like an ATST being a animal but I'm enjoying it enough to see past the flaws. I'd be very happy if similar Star Wars shows shows were continued to be produced.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyway, another fun episode. Mandalorian won't go down as the greatest TV show of all time but I'm definitely enjoying it. Some weird direction like an ATST being a animal but I'm enjoying it enough to see past the flaws. I'd be very happy if similar Star Wars shows shows were continued to be produced.

I think the animal thing sort of goes with any of the walkers due to their design.

Watched Rouge One last night and when the ATAT gets hit by a missile it recoils like an animal, but given the design there really is no other way for it to respond.

Stop moaning ffs

It’s said in the episode that the walker is ‘mech’ so probably automated? Relic left behind on the empire? Gotta be loads of that stuff all over the galaxy

Wibbs

I'm very much liking the series anyway. OK it slows at times, but I'm even liking that. Too much TV stuff, especially Big Franchises tend towards being too frenetic. Too much look at meee!.

leggo wrote: »

The Last Jedi was a largely excellent piece of work

I would disagree. It was all over the place on basic storytelling, characterisation, tone, pacing and plot. To a truly scary degree for such a huge budget franchise leader film from a major studio. For all the angry fan stuff and the we'll watch anything so long as it's Star Wars fan divisive stuff, it would have been critically mauled if it had been a brand new entity without all the Star Wars behemoth and good(and even bad)will behind it. Look at how it did in China without all that. Opened OK and then fell off a Skellig island cliff in the second week(IIRC takings dropped by 80-90%).

Stop moaning ffs

To be fair Star Wars isn’t a thing in China. Never was. Tfa was its first release there ever.
But TLJ is a completely different kind of Star Wars film. And there are far more that love than dont despite what you read. The perpetually aggrieved will always complain about pretty much anything. Tlj just happens to be a very meaty bone in that regard. I don’t love unquestioningly at all it but I love loads about it especially for being so different and brave. And I believe it’ll fall into place for many of the complainers once given context of the complete trilogy.
Also don’t get why people use box office as any kind of marker. That’s just stupidity in every sense. But anyways.

Skerries

Venom

My desk needs this bad.

NIMAN

Venom wrote: »

My desk needs this bad.

What age are you?

Agent Coulson

Disney are making a Children's game show hosted by Jar Jar Binks.

The game show “tests young contestants’ abilities in the core Jedi principles of strength, knowledge, and bravery as they face thrilling and fun obstacles,” according to Disney executives.

Star Wars: Jedi Temple Challenge

Wibbs

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

To be fair Star Wars isn’t a thing in China. Never was. Tfa was its first release there ever.

That was my point. Without the goodwill, nerds putting jedi down as their religion in census forms and the hope behind it as a background it was seriously lacking on its own merits as a standalone, even with all the might of marketing behind it, even with TFA being a near scene for scene ripoff of the very first one, then again Abrams is the directorial equivalent of listening to a mediocre Beatles cover band in a flashy venue and he proved it there.

But TLJ is a completely different kind of Star Wars film. And there are far more that love than dont despite what you read. The perpetually aggrieved will always complain about pretty much anything. Tlj just happens to be a very meaty bone in that regard. I don’t love unquestioningly at all it but I love loads about it especially for being so different and brave. And I believe it’ll fall into place for many of the complainers once given context of the complete trilogy.

"Different and brave" are all too often catchphrases rolled out for sh1te and nonsense. Forget the Star Wars background story, forget the favourite characters and all that, the fans, good and bad. The production design was spot on, as were the effects, but as an example of story, plot, tone, characterisation, writing and direction it is appallingly clunky from damn near from the very first scene and rarely pops its head above the parapet of jarring from then on to the closing credits and often sinks well down below it. That the same studio that could produce something as good as Frozen signed off on that beggars my belief TBH.

Also don’t get why people use box office as any kind of marker. That’s just stupidity in every sense. But anyways.

The very reason we're able to watch the Mandalorian is precisely because of the gargantuan box office takings of the franchise back in the late 70's and 80's and beyond. Disney wouldn't have forked out many billions to buy and spend on the thing if it weren't for the box office. Box office isn't a marker in this? That's a stupid argument.