Ask Brian: My girlfriend's choosing to remain pregnant-can I opt out of being a dad?

Collie D

It's actually interesting that the OP was about a feckless father shirking his responsibilities (and to be fair it's probably not a genuine letter) but some posters have veered it towards single mothers and women in general.

"Gentlemen's" Club indeed

runawaybishop

Both people said they didn't want kids but when the women gets accidentally pregnant she reneges on this (and apparently it's the guys fault for not getting a vasectomy) and decides to have a baby the guy doesn't want, and will be liable for for 18 years. Bullshirt, he should be able to opt out and she can then make the decision to carry on or not in full knowledge of the situation.

Sleeper12

Collie D wrote:

But that wasn't your original point. You made the claim about trapping people and then moved on to something else.

No. Go back & Read the thread again. You'll find my original comment was "there's no way near as many unplanned pregnancies as men are led to believe"

This is fact. Anyone trying to claim otherwise are arguing for the sake of arguing when they actually know what the truth is.

keith_sixteen

runawaybishop wrote: »

Both people said they didn't want kids but when the women gets accidentally pregnant she reneges on this (and apparently it's the guys fault for not getting a vasectomy) and decide

Stoopid wimmin, accidentally getting pregnant. So clumsy.

runawaybishop

keith_sixteen wrote: »

Stoopid wimmin, accidentally getting pregnant. So clumsy.

So? It should not be a unilateral decision.

Eric Cartman

Collie D wrote: »

It's actually interesting that the OP was about a feckless father shirking his responsibilities (and to be fair it's probably not a genuine letter) but some posters have veered it towards single mothers and women in general.

"Gentlemen's" Club indeed

The OP was about a man who thought he was with somebody on the same page as him and that children were not on the table for their future, she then shifted the goalposts on him and due to the way our laws are structured, through no fault of his own he is now financially liable for a child he doesn't want.

If a woman fell pregnant and wanted to have an abortion anyone commenting "no , she should keep the child because he wants it" would be quite rightly derided as barbaric , turn the tables and suddenly how dare he want out.

Nobody is suggesting partners can force women to have abortions or anything else awful , our society is even structured in a way that a man even suggesting an abortion to his 'accidentally pregnant' partner is often met with disgust and anger.

We have rightfully worked for a long time through the miracle of modern medicine to enable women to choose if they are pregnant or not. Choices for men in this regard are limited and in the event of an 'unexpected' pregnancy men currently have no options. We are talking about just putting one option on the table for men and everyone loses their mind.

keith_sixteen

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The OP was about a man who thought he was with somebody on the same page as him and that children were not on the table for their future, she then shifted the goalposts on him and due to the way our laws are structured, through no fault of his own he is now financially liable for a child he doesn't want.

If a woman fell pregnant and wanted to have an abortion anyone commenting "no , she should keep the child because he wants it" would be quite rightly derided as barbaric , turn the tables and suddenly how dare he want out.

Nobody is suggesting partners can force women to have abortions or anything else awful , our society is even structured in a way that a man even suggesting an abortion to his 'accidentally pregnant' partner is often met with disgust and anger.

We have rightfully worked for a long time through the miracle of modern medicine to enable women to choose if they are pregnant or not. Choices for men in this regard are limited and in the event of an 'unexpected' pregnancy men currently have no options. We are talking about just putting one option on the table for men and everyone loses their mind.

How about grow up and be responsible for your actions?

Failing that, go start a campaign. Throw up a template email there so people can mail their local representatives. I'd actually love to see that.

Snotty

Unfortunately for men, this will never happen. The woman can opt out legally with an abortion regardless of the man's want. The man cannot opt out and will just get comments like "you shouldn't have had sex" but, as we seen during the referendum debate, woman are exempt for that statement.

uptherebels

Paddy Cow wrote: »

You forgot option #5 - woman wants pregnancy but man doesn't. He emotionally blackmails her into having an abortion. Result - termination.

That happens just as often as women continuing against their partner's wishes.

And I'm sure you will be forthcoming with evidence to support this claim!

runawaybishop

keith_sixteen wrote: »

How about grow up and be responsible for your actions?

Failing that, go start a campaign. Throw up a template email there so people can mail their local representatives. I'd actually love to see that.

Being responsible only applies to the man though, right? Women couldn't be responsible for themselves, bless them.

The article doesn't state who was responsible for the contraception, it could quite easily have been a mistake (or not) by the woman.

keith_sixteen

runawaybishop wrote: »

Being responsible only applies to the man though, right? Women couldn't be responsible for themselves, bless them.

The article doesn't state who was responsible for the contraception, it could quite easily have been a mistake (or not) by the woman.

So now we are talking about who is responsbile for contraception? Different conversation imo. This thread is discussing the responsibilities toward the child.

If a woman decides to keep and raise a child, that is being responsible.

Any man who abrogates financial, and emotinal support of his child can in no way claim to be a responsible adult.

Eric Cartman

keith_sixteen wrote: »

How about grow up and be responsible for your actions?

Failing that, go start a campaign. Throw up a template email there so people can mail their local representatives. I'd actually love to see that.

so lets say a man is with a partner for years and has had discussions with her multiple times specifying that children are not wanted, and she is on say the implant or other highly reliable form of contraception, then decides she wants to have children and has that contraception removed /does not renew without telling her partner, gets pregnant and then says she's keeping it.

Are you saying that is his fault and then justifying that he should be responsible for that kid ?

runawaybishop

keith_sixteen wrote: »

So now we are talking about who is responsbile for contraception? Different conversation imo. This thread is discussing the responsibilities toward the child.

If a woman decides to keep and raise a child, that is being responsible.

Any man who abrogates financial, and emotinal support of his child can in no way claim to be a responsible adult.

If a women decides to keep and raise a child that is her right and her decision, she should be able to do so with the understanding the man will not be involved, financially or otherwise. Being responsible does not mean forcing others to accede to your decisions.

runawaybishop

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so lets say a man is with a partner for years and has had discussions with her multiple times specifying that children are not wanted, and she is on say the implant or other highly reliable form of contraception, then decides she wants to have children and has that contraception removed /does not renew without telling her partner, gets pregnant and then says she's keeping it.

Are you saying that is his fault and then justifying that he should be responsible for that kid ?

In the reverse scenario the man would probably be guilty of rape.

GingerLily

runawaybishop wrote: »

In the reverse scenario the man would probably be guilty of rape.

Hormonal and physical contraception are not the same, it would be comparible to a man claiming he had a vasectomy when he hadn't. In that case the I don't think that it would be classified as rape?

Lying about using a condom, is, and should be considered rape.

Sleeper12

runawaybishop wrote:

If a women decides to keep and raise a child that is her right and her decision, she should be able to do so with the understanding the man will not be involved, financially or otherwise. Being responsible does not mean forcing others to accede to your decisions.

Legally the father is always financially responsible.

OldMrBrennan83

I'd love to see someone take this to court since the referendum. Men should have the equal rights to have nothing to do with a pregnancy now that women have been given the get out of jail card. If it takes 'two to tango' then both should have the choice as to whether they want in or not.

runawaybishop

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Legally the father is always financially responsible.

Yes, but previously abortion was illegal.

keith_sixteen

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so lets say a man is with a partner for years and has had discussions with her multiple times specifying that children are not wanted, and she is on say the implant or other highly reliable form of contraception, then decides she wants to have children and has that contraception removed /does not renew without telling her partner, gets pregnant and then says she's keeping it.

Are you saying that is his fault and then justifying that he should be responsible for that kid ?

I would say that sounds like an unhealthy relationship and is hardly something we should legislate for. How would it even work? I doubt many decent people find themselves in this situation. If this happened to me, I would be pissed but still face the consequences and reality and not run away.

Is there even any policy research done on this? Only on the mens forum on boards is this even a conversation. In the real world, it has absolutely nothing.

But feel free to convince me

runawaybishop

GingerLily wrote: »

Hormonal and physical contraception are not the same, it would be comparible to a man claiming he had a vasectomy when he hadn't. In that case the I don't think that it would be classified as rape?

Lying about using a condom, is, and should be considered rape.

How are they not the same, neither are 100% effective.

GingerLily

runawaybishop wrote: »

How are they not the same, neither are 100% effective.

There are more potential consequences to unprotected sex then pregnancy, you are aware of that?

Eric Cartman

keith_sixteen wrote: »

I would say that sounds like an unhealthy relationship and is hardly something we should legislate for. How would it even work? I doubt many decent people find themselves in this situation. If this happened to me, I would be pissed but still face the consequences and reality and not run away.

Is there even any policy research done on this? Only on the mens forum on boards is this even a conversation. In the real world, it has absolutely nothing.

But feel free to convince me

I have multiple mates who were in similar boats, with women for 6, 8 , 10 years always discussed 'no kids' 'no kids' 'no kids' the women rapidly approaching 30 or their best mate has just had a kid and is facebooking all the 'cute' photos and suddenly the pill or whatever that has worked so reliably for almost a decade has failed completely, the lad dares mention the word abortion and boom kicked out of the house for a week , suddenly "ohh I'm not one of those women , I never want kids" is now suddenly accidentally preggers and is so sure she wants to keep it that any suggestion of otherwise is a week long argument waiting to happen.

Now most do stick around but get a few drinks into them and sentences like 'its awful to say, I love my kid but I really wish I didn't have a kid' come out. They are effectively trapped because of societal pressure to 'step up' and being called 'dead beat' 'feckless' etc...

Sleeper12

runawaybishop wrote:

Yes, but previously abortion was illegal.

Abortion is legal in many countries and has been for decades. Maybe abortion is a get out of jail free card for fathers but I don't know of any country where this is the case.

It's worth remembering that doctors can refuse to do abortions on moral grounds. I'd imagine women can refuse abortion on moral grounds too. I can't see this as an excuse for fathers to get out of supporting their child.

runawaybishop

GingerLily wrote: »

There are more potential consequences to unprotected sex then pregnancy, you are aware of that?

We aren't discussing STIs here.

keith_sixteen

runawaybishop wrote: »

Being responsible does not mean forcing others to accede to your decisions.

Too late to be talking about decisions at that stage.

OldMrBrennan83

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Abortion is legal in many countries and has been for decades. Maybe abortion is a get out of jail free card for fathers but I don't know of any country where this is the case.

It's worth remembering that doctors can refuse to do abortions on moral grounds. I'd imagine women can refuse abortion on moral grounds too. I can't see this as an excuse for fathers to get out of supporting their child.

It's a get out of jail card for women, not for men.

runawaybishop

keith_sixteen wrote: »

Too late to be talking about decisions at that stage.

Right, so by that logic abortions should still be illegal, in the interests of equality of responsibility.

Sleeper12

Patww79 wrote:

It's a get out of jail card for women, not for men.

I would agree.

Girlfriend or even wife gets pregnant husband wants to keep the baby but wife doesn't. Most likely outcome is an abortion. Father has no say in it. Men get the short end of the stick with wanting or not wanting the baby

keith_sixteen

runawaybishop wrote: »

Right, so by that logic abortions should still be illegal, in the interests of equality of responsibility.

Her body, her decision. Whatever that is, you support it. Run away and shirk your responsibilities if you want, but I am struggling the see how you get the law on your side.

OldMrBrennan83

keith_sixteen wrote: »

Her body, her decision. Whatever that is, you support it. Run away and shirk your responsibilities if you want, but I am struggling the see how you get the law on your side.

That's the situation men find themselves in now but it's very wrong and pressure needs to be put on to get it changed.

Eric Cartman

keith_sixteen wrote: »

Her body, her decision. Whatever that is, you support it. Run away and shirk your responsibilities if you want, but I am struggling the see how you get the law on your side.

Ok, what if the man cannot afford to have a child, the woman is abusive / a substance abuser etc.. All very valid reasons for a woman to terminate a pregnancy when the tables are turned.

The lad mightn't be trapped in a relationship with her but is being forced to continue to pay and thus have to potentially have further interaction with somebody who abused him or is just going to spend the money on heroin

keith_sixteen

Patww79 wrote: »

That's the situation men find themselves in now but it's very wrong and pressure needs to be put on to get it changed.

What would you call the Facebook page? "Her body, my choice"?

runawaybishop

keith_sixteen wrote: »

Her body, her decision. Whatever that is, you support it. Run away and shirk your responsibilities if you want, but I am struggling the see how you get the law on your side.

Her body, her decision, her responsibility?

I do love the language used when discussing this, shirk, run away, deadbeat dad etc.

keith_sixteen wrote: »

What would you call the Facebook page? "Her body, my choice"?

Her body, my wallet :PAC:

You all seem to be missing the point here.
Nature has decreed that women must carry a pregnancy. A woman can decide she doesn't wish to be pregnant, it's barbaric to force her, therefore we have abortion.
Now, forget about how the child came into the world..... Two people make a child, two people are responsible, both both can walk away.
Neither a man or a woman can be forced to be a parent.
So, forget about abortion, take it out of the equation, because it doesn't matter.
Both parents are equal when it comes to responsibility for a child.
So we need to stop making this a male v women argument.

Some day science will allow a foetus to be born outside of a woman & then both parents can decide whether to be involved or not. Until then, it's pregnancy a woman has to go through, or not go through. No one forces anyone to be a parent.

OldMrBrennan83

keith_sixteen wrote: »

What would you call the Facebook page? "Her body, my choice"?

We made a baby, she has the choice and I'd like the same.

I'm sure it could be shortened for catchiness though.

Toastytoes

runawaybishop wrote: »

Her body, her decision, her responsibility?

I do love the language used when discussing this, shirk, run away, deadbeat dad etc.



Her body, my wallet :PAC:

How about my dick, my baby, my wallet?

Only sticking it in places that cannot make a baby is the safest option if you really don’t want one.

OldMrBrennan83

bubblypop wrote: »

You all seem to be missing the point here.
Nature has decreed that women must carry a pregnancy. A woman can decide she doesn't wish to be pregnant, it's barbaric to force her, therefore we have abortion.
Now, forget about how the child came into the world..... Two people make a child, two people are responsible, both both can walk away.
Neither a man or a woman can be forced to be a parent.
So, forget about abortion, take it out of the equation, because it doesn't matter.
Both parents are equal when it comes to responsibility for a child.
So we need to stop making this a male v women argument.

Some day science will allow a foetus to be born outside of a woman & then both parents can decide whether to be involved or not. Until then, it's pregnancy a woman has to go through, or not go through. No one forces anyone to be a parent.

That's really just one big pile of suiting yourself.

Mr.H

Hitman3000 wrote:

Not missing any point. He's an adult who engaged in sex, pregnancy is a consequence of sex when contraception fails. He has a responsibility to the child. He can chose to abstain from sex in the future if parenthood is not for him, but he is responsible for the child she is carrying.

Yet if you made that statement about a woman.........

runawaybishop

bubblypop wrote: »

..... Two people make a child, two people are responsible, both both can walk away.
Neither a man or a woman can be forced to be a parent.
So, forget about abortion, take it out of the equation, because it doesn't matter.

Abortion does matter because it can force responsibility or not.

runawaybishop

Toastytoes wrote: »

How about my dick, my baby, my wallet?

Only sticking it in places that cannot make a baby is the safest option if you really don’t want one.

Very good, except the 'my baby' bit falls down when the man legally has no say if a women chooses to abort.

It also falls down just a tad when you consider abortion is legal now. Would you tell abortion campaigners to keep their legs closed too?

OldMrBrennan83

Mr.H wrote: »

Yet if you made that statement about a woman.........

She's an adult who engaged in sex, pregnancy is a consequence of sex when contraception fails. She has a responsibility to the child. She can chose to abstain from sex in the future if parenthood is not for her, but she is responsible for the child she is carrying.

Hmmm, that one wouldn't really suit though would it?

drunkmonkey

You can opt out at anytime until you die, maybe see what's cooks up after 9mts. If you still want to walk away then do. Just pay the Lady on your way out!

Toastytoes

runawaybishop wrote: »

Very good, except the 'my baby' bit falls down when the man legally has no say if a women chooses to abort.

Does that mean it’s not biologically his baby though?

runawaybishop

Toastytoes wrote: »

Does that mean it’s not biologically his baby though?

Yes, just like when she chooses to abort against his wishes. If you want to keep going down the 'its completely her decision' road you must realise it works both ways.

splinter65

bubblypop wrote: »

You all seem to be missing the point here.
Nature has decreed that women must carry a pregnancy. A woman can decide she doesn't wish to be pregnant, it's barbaric to force her, therefore we have abortion.
Now, forget about how the child came into the world..... Two people make a child, two people are responsible, both both can walk away.
Neither a man or a woman can be forced to be a parent.
So, forget about abortion, take it out of the equation, because it doesn't matter.
Both parents are equal when it comes to responsibility for a child.
So we need to stop making this a male v women argument.

Some day science will allow a foetus to be born outside of a woman & then both parents can decide whether to be involved or not. Until then, it's pregnancy a woman has to go through, or not go through. No one forces anyone to be a parent.

If you’ve conceived a baby with a woman then biologically your a parent wether you want to be or not.

OldMrBrennan83

splinter65 wrote: »

If you’ve conceived a baby with a woman then biologically your a parent wether you want to be or not.

So you should be able to 'abort' your responsibilities to the child now that a woman is able to now. Only fair and right.

Toastytoes

runawaybishop wrote: »

It also falls down just a tad when you consider abortion is legal now. Would you tell abortion campaigners to keep their legs closed too?

If said campaigner are men who don’t want kids then yes I would.

Men know the score, they cannot control the situation onc conception occurs, so therefore if they don’t want kids they have to control what they can before conception. I.e not having sex with a woman who can bare a child or getting the snip.

ThunbergsAreGo

Cordell wrote: »

You had the opportunity to opt it out, but you chose to opt it in, multiple times probably. So now it's a bit late for this particular question.

Would you say the same about a woman?

Children aren't for 9 months

runawaybishop

Toastytoes wrote: »

If said campaigner are men who don’t want kids then yes I would.

Men know the score, they cannot control the situation onc conception occurs, so therefore if they don’t want kids they have to control what they can before conception. I.e not having sex with a woman who can bare a child or getting the snip.

Said campaigners are women, I would have thought that was obvious. Telling women to keep their legs closed is as dumb as telling men to zip up their mickey's.

Toastytoes

Patww79 wrote: »

So you should be able to 'abort' your responsibilities to the child now that a woman is able to now. Only fair and right.

Pregnancy is a result of having sex. Why do men act like hey didn’t know that in advance?

No contraception is 100% effective. The decision is out of your hands once you’ve done the deed. The time for making the decision is before having sex. Choose wisely. Plenty women out there who can’t have a baby due to age etc. choose one of those.