Realistic alternatives to suckler farming

Water John

Putting it in simple broad terms if a farmer has 50-100 acres what can be done with it so that it provides some income and washes its face?

Siamsa Sessions

Water John wrote: »

Putting it in simple broad terms if a farmer has 50-100 acres what can be done with it so that it provides some income and washes its face?

Join every scheme going, be it the next Glas, BDGP, Sheep Welfare, agroforestry, ANC, whatever you can get into.

If the entitlements scheme is unlikely to change, it might be worth buying a few low-value entitlements too if you’ve any naked land.

After that, take on as little debt as possible. Keep stocking rates sensible and make more silage (to sell).

Don’t read the Journal too closely and don’t listen too much to “industry experts”.

Get a decent part-time job.

Go to the pub at the weekend and the mart here and there. Volunteer with some local community group.

Life is short. Try not to worry too much about the land.

(Disclaimer: I may be talking about what I need to do in the above!)

Muckit

Excellent advice!!

patsy_mccabe

,,,,,and don't forget to always wear sunscreen.:rolleyes:

Reggie.

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

,,,,,and don't forget to always wear sunscreen.:rolleyes:

Bet some lads don't understand that sentence

Muckit

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

,,,,,and don't forget to always wear sunscreen.:rolleyes:

I was thinking more trainspotting....

"l chose not to choose sucklers. I chose something else!"

Water John

Is the suncream because there won't be a shirt on your back?

patsy_mccabe

We should do one for suckler farmers.:D

Birdnuts

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

There is a market for spruce. Its used in pretty much every building project, but native trees like ash / oak / birch - not sure where the market for this timber would be?

Like everything Brian, there is prob no one size fits all. There are places where spruce might be the best option, based on location, land quality, etc... Maybe a reduction in spruce vs an increase in native would be better?

Many of the spruce plantations sown on peatlands and other unsuiteable sites are very low grade with alot of waste. Big demand worldwide now for hardwoods as tropical sources are exhausted or protected. Eg. Currently French Oak is making record breaking prices in China. We need a far more integrated and stategic foresty policy in this country along the lines of what they have over most of continental Europe which focuses on high value specimen trees rather than monocultures of clearfelled spruce

Water John

Amazing we go for commodity in every production item.

Birdnuts

Water John wrote: »

Amazing we go for commodity in every production item.

Yeah - seems to be very little work done by the relevant state agencies in this area and developing new crops with higher market values eg. Reading just last week that in Spain recently farmers in the North of the country have switched from Wheat to walnuts as worldwide demande for the latter has shot up given its increasing use in cosmetics and health foods. Similar in Turkey with Hazel nut production offering a boon for many rural parts

Dinzee Conlee

Birdnuts wrote: »

Yeah - seems to be very little work done by the relevant state agencies in this area and developing new crops with higher market values eg. Reading just last week that in Spain recently farmers in the North of the country have switched from Wheat to walnuts as worldwide demande for the latter has shot up given its increasing use in cosmetics and health foods. Similar in Turkey with Hazel nut production offering a boon for many rural parts

I think the hazelnut industry in Turkey is based on migrant labour, some of it possibly child labour

As for native trees, if there is a market then would be all for planting them... Does anyone have any details on returns from native trees?
I know there is the grant, but what are the expected returns at thinning and clearfell?

I still think all types of timber should be planted, including spruce... I don’t think it’s a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket...

From a biodiversity perspective - I see an ash forest locally, and the trees are in lines, very close together to drive them up straight... you would wonder how much diversity is in this forest, even though it’s native trees?

Siamsa Sessions

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

,,,,,and don't forget to always wear sunscreen.:rolleyes:

And woolly stockings in frosty weather

_Brian

I like Daragh’s piece in the Indo, he specifically calls out the beef barrons and why they aren’t paying a sustainable price.

He also implied that if your outside Munster or Leinster, nobody would want your land should you stop in sucklers.

_Brian

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2018/nov/01/third-of-britons-have-stopped-or-reduced-meat-eating-vegan-vegetarian-report?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true

A report from what I presume is a relatively impartial source ??

If this sort of trend is reflected across Europe then beef demand will continue to fall which isn’t good either.

freedominacup

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

We should do one for suckler farmers.:D

Some of the most interesting suckler farmers I know.........

Muckit

_Brian wrote: »

I like Daragh’s piece in the Indo, he specifically calls out the beef barrons and why they aren’t paying a sustainable price.

He also implied that if your outside Munster or Leinster, nobody would want your land should you stop in sucklers.

You could put that slant on it. But l thought the main jest of his article was why keep flogging a dead horse? Just to be clear, the article l am referring to was entitled "Why throw more subsidies at a sector that struggles to make a profit?

Tax return time. If lads can't see the industry is f**ked now, when will they see it? l would have to agree with some of his points. I don't believe pumping more money in will solve things. It will make things worse. Lads will increase cow numbers for the subsidy. But the subsidy will only end up being hoovered up indirectly by everyone bar the farmer. Kill numbers will go up even more and beef price will sink to an all time low.

Suckler cow and beef numbers in general need to decrease IMO. But you won't see the IFA et al shouting for this because their return from mart and factory levies will go down. Are we thick or plain stupid to be commiting to an industry that constantly uses us as a doormat? Have we any sense of self worth? It's hard to expect somebody else to respect us if we don't respect yourself.

Bullocks

Muckit wrote: »

You could put that slant on it. But l thought the main jest of his article was why keep flogging a dead horse? Just to be clear, the article l am referring to was entitled "Why throw more subsidies at a sector that struggles to make a profit?

Tax return time. If lads can't see the industry is f**ked now, when will they see it? l would have to agree with some of his points. I don't believe pumping more money in will solve things. It will make things worse. Lads will increase cow numbers for the subsidy. But the subsidy will only end up being hoovered up indirectly by everyone bar the farmer. Kill numbers will go up even more and beef price will sink to an all time low.

Suckler cow and beef numbers in general need to decrease IMO. But you won't see the IFA et al shouting for this because their return from mart and factory levies will go down. Are we thick or plain stupid to be commiting to an industry that constantly uses us as a doormat? Have we any sense of self worth? It's hard to expect somebody else to respect us if we don't respect yourself.

I wonder have the levies dropped much since the Pat Smith outrage? Did many opt out of paying that had been paying before?

Say my name

Farmer wrote: »

Consumption of meat again taking a beating on News at 1 following World Wildlife Fund report stating that

"Populations of mammals, birds, fish, reptiles, and amphibians have, on average, declined in size by 60 percent in just over 40 years"

again blaming the farmer. Nobody seems to see that if the farmer wasn't forced to produce food at near or under cost price there might be less food waste and over production. Nobody sees that we are penalized for leaving wildlife friendly vegetation intact in corners of the farm. Nobody sees that, particularly in the NW that the blanket plantation of ground sterilizing Sitka Spruce instead of broadleaves could have an adverse effect on wildlife (not to mention water quality, tourism or least of all, the poor auld native humans )

No, we need to give up meat, keep up consumerism and double the size of Dublin airport!

BBC iPlayer (@BBCiPlayer) Tweeted:
.@Simon_Reeve explores the problem of plastic in the Mediterranean. This is shocking.
https://t.co/QRAoxnBYh6 https://twitter.com/BBCiPlayer/status/1057295059140268032?s=17


Honestly. There should be a boycott imposed on Spanish fruit and veg.

This is what paper farming and the race to the bottom results in. Selfish bastwards looking to have the biggest house or most expensive car and to hell with everything else. The next person that asks you what's the economic return on that. Punch them in the nose for me.

Keep Sluicing

Bullocks wrote: »

I wonder have the levies dropped much since the Pat Smith outrage? Did many opt out of paying that had been paying before?

I stopped all IFA levies. 1 of my neighbours did it also.

I also leased out approx half my land this spring on a long term lease. It was a weigh off my mind and a weight of tax free money in the bank.

MickeyShtyles

Say my name wrote: »

BBC iPlayer (@BBCiPlayer) Tweeted:
.@Simon_Reeve explores the problem of plastic in the Mediterranean. This is shocking.
https://t.co/QRAoxnBYh6 https://twitter.com/BBCiPlayer/status/1057295059140268032?s=17


Honestly. There should be a boycott imposed on Spanish fruit and veg.

This is what paper farming and the race to the bottom results in. Selfish bastwards looking to have the biggest house or most expensive car and to hell with everything else. The next person that asks you what's the economic return on that. Punch them in the nose for me.

If ya pull the Spanish stuff, it doesn’t really leave an island like ourselves with many options.
After Christmas, we depend on Spanish imports for a lotta veg.

Bullocks

MickeyShtyles wrote: »

If ya pull the Spanish stuff, it doesn’t really leave an island like ourselves with many options.
After Christmas, we depend on Spanish imports for a lotta veg.

It wouldn't do us much harm to have a few hungry months.

_Brian

Flexaterian !
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/features/as-a-flexitarian-i-can-enjoy-the-smugness-of-vegetarianism-while-still-eating-meat-20171122139526

patsy_mccabe

Right, opinions are one thing, but the figures tell the real picture.

First of all, the EU procuces only 12.8% of the Global Beef Output.

http://beef2live.com/story-world-beef-production-ranking-countries-0-106885



Of that 7.8 million tonnes. Ireland produces about 600,000 tonnes or about 8% of EU output. So in Global terms we produce about 1% of the Global beef output.
If we're exporting 80% of this, now will reducing Suckler cow numbers here, lead to a price rise?

Farmer

Say my name wrote: »

BBC iPlayer (@BBCiPlayer) Tweeted:
.@Simon_Reeve explores the problem of plastic in the Mediterranean. This is shocking.............

Waste disposal has to be totally free, subsidised by levies at time of purchase. Anything else makes dumping profitable If it's not working, ramp up the levy and move the money in to enforcement. If tomatoes or filling station coffee cups go up in price, it is merely reflecting the true cost and will lead to opportunities in other areas.

It is shocking that this can go on unnoticed while our fields are scrutinized from above for any errant scrub growth!

Farmer

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Right opinions are one thing, but the figures tell the real picture.

First of all the EU procuces only 12.8% of the Global Beef Output.

Of that 7.8 million tonnes. Ireland produces about 600,000 tonnes or about 8% of EU output. So in Global terms we produce about 1% of the Global beef output.
If we're exporting 80% of this, now will reducing Suckler cow numbers here, lead to a price rise?

Well I presume the logic is to have it as scarce as it is in June when Larry and the lads can up the price with bonuses from 3.70 to more like 4.50 when they need it

_Brian

Farmer wrote: »

Well I presume the logic is to have it as scarce as it is in June when Larry and the lads can up the price with bonuses from 3.70 to more like 4.50 when they need it

It’s hard to deny that when cattle are scarce prices improve.
Flooding the market with animals is definitely proving unsustainable.

I think making Larry et al work for cattle is as likely to help than the “increase numbers and improve efficiency” mantra.

patsy_mccabe

That's seasonal scarcity. It would still be there regardless of total output. What I'm saying is, its global scarcity or oversupply that really effect beef price.
We could drop suckler cow numbers here in half and the price paid by factories would stay the same.

_Brian

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

That's seasonal scarcity. It would still be there regardless of total output. What I'm saying is, its global scarcity or oversupply that really effect beef price.
We could drop suckler cow numbers here in half and the price paid by factories would stay the same.

I’ll take your word on that as I wouldn’t take on to know a world view on beef.

But then there is the flip side, 30 sucklers making nothing each year is easier to manage that 40 sucklers making €0 each year

That’s a reality for so many.

TooOldBoots

This is the first year that I am seriously looking at alternatives to Suckling.
No real options out there at the moment. The farm grows grass, you need to do something with the grass.
Alternatives to this would be

Forestry - Probably the best and most tax effective option for most
Fruit trees - Fruit growers are having as bad a time as we are
Some form of agri tourism - Would cost a lot of money, poor returns
Rent it out to Dairy - Good option but hard to find an honest one
Make silage/hay for sale - Short term gain, eventually the land would become poor as a church mouse
or
Just let the place grow wild, keep only enough stock to collect the check form the eu while joining every scheme running -- The worst option which only kicks the can down the road

amacca

_Brian wrote: »

I think making Larry et al work for cattle is as likely to help than the “increase numbers and improve efficiency” mantra.

Try tell that to anyone in Teagasc .......

Water John

Not sure what type of farming this guy does, but he looks to have the right idea.
Frank certainly made a life out of it.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/revealed-kevin-odonovan-to-replace-frank-murphy-as-cork-gaa-secretary-882658.html

The Real Elmer Fudd

TooOldBoots wrote: »

This is the first year that I am seriously looking at alternatives to Suckling.
No real options out there at the moment. The farm grows grass, you need to do something with the grass.
Alternatives to this would be

Forestry - Probably the best and most tax effective option for most
Fruit trees - Fruit growers are having as bad a time as we are
Some form of agri tourism - Would cost a lot of money, poor returns
Rent it out to Dairy - Good option but hard to find an honest one
Make silage/hay for sale - Short term gain, eventually the land would become poor as a church mouse
or
Just let the place grow wild, keep only enough stock to collect the check form the eu while joining every scheme running -- The worst option which only kicks the can down the road

Poultry, of any variation. In the chickens you have Broilers, Breeders, eggs. Ducks are also good but the problem with ducks is the slurry/nitrates. Can be a big investment but there are good returns

lalababa

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Yes but it could save the Suckler herd here. If we moved to 100% organic beef production this would produce a more saleable product, unique in Europe. It would mean less animals per farm also so supplies of beef sucklers here would tighten up.
Its a viable option for the suckler farmer.

At the end of the day the beef from the Irish suckler is currently seen in the UK and Europe as only being on par or below. We need to far exceed them

I would be inclined to agree with this post. If it's better to destock and use less imputs and maybe get a premium price. Basically turn the whole island and whole meat industry sheep pigs chickens cattle to organic. There are more and more small livestock farms basically a few bags of fert. away from organic.

_Brian

Do organic stock carry much of a premium when it comes to sale as weanlings or slaughter ??

Albert Johnson

_Brian wrote: »

Do organic stock carry much of a premium when it comes to sale as weanlings or slaughter ??

From what I see at organic sales locally the spring time of the year is the time to sell stock. In April and May most years there's lots of lads looking for light stock for summer grazing. I seen dairy cross bullocks sold at an organic sale last may at from 2.05 to 2.45 a kilo circa 300kg. This wasn't that out of kilter with the trade on the day, sucker bred equivalents were topping out at over 3.00 a kilo.
Heavier stores are also in demand from a big feedlot buyer but the numbers of suitable cattle are small.
As regards the back end of the year I don't usually see much of a premium for lighter stock. Most years they'd make as much if not more in an ordinary sale. A lot of the organic weanlings are bought by conventional farmers in the autumn due to lack of organic purchasers.
Again forward stores would be a better trade in the back end due to the same feedlot customer. I'm told sourcing suitable stock is there biggest barrier to expansion.
I would consider changing to organic in the future but in my opinion you would need to either retain weanlings till the spring or sell as forward stores to receive a premium.

Say my name

A link to an article from an Irish and British perspective, of calls for a reduction in eating less beef to save the world.

http://www.arc2020.eu/if-not-meat-then-what-climate-change-regenerative-ag-and-viable-rural-areas/

Birdnuts

Say my name wrote: »

A link to an article from an Irish and British perspective, of calls for a reduction in eating less beef to save the world.

http://www.arc2020.eu/if-not-meat-then-what-climate-change-regenerative-ag-and-viable-rural-areas/

Nothing wrong with sustainable reared beef in an EU context. Beef production in the likes of Brazil is another matter and I really fear for the Amazon now that yer man has been elected there:(

Say my name

Birdnuts wrote: »

Nothing wrong with sustainable reared beef in an EU context. Beef production in the likes of Brazil is another matter and I really fear for the Amazon now that yer man has been elected there:(

There's absolutely nothing wrong with sustainable beef in any part of the world.
With the emphasis on sustainable.

The trouble with Brazil and the likes of these tropical regions is their land is so cheap and the soils are so poor is that it makes economic sense to clear the wilderness and get your few years of productivity and move again.
You could get right bitter if you start to think about all the destruction being caused right now to this planet by these greedy little ants who'll only be here for a millisecond but are determined to mess it up for a bit of tin and paper.

It's not all doom and gloom though.

https://youtu.be/9ogskf1_Ud8

Birdnuts

Say my name wrote: »

There's absolutely nothing wrong with sustainable beef in any part of the world.
With the emphasis on sustainable.

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I get that - in fact I experienced it first hand while volunteering in Kenya a few years back. I worked on a large 100,000 acre ranch that was managed as a game reserve for the "big 5" and made most of its money via tourist cash. However it also ran a large herd of pedigree Zebu with some of the best bloodlines in the region. How it worked was the cattle were grazed on the range during the day watched by a couple of herdsmen from the local tribe and then put in large bomas at night. Seemed to work well as predators like Hyena, Lion etc. were only active at night and had plenty of wild game to snack on;)

_Brian

_Brian wrote: »

I’ll take your word on that as I wouldn’t take on to know a world view on beef.

But then there is the flip side, 30 sucklers making nothing each year is easier to manage that 40 sucklers making €0 each year

That’s a reality for so many.

With a new CAP going though I’m not sure the next few years is a time for people to be cutting down from a maximizing the BPS going forward point if view.

Base price

Came across this article on the IFJ - the cost of keeping a suckler cow.

The article explains that the costs can be adjusted to suit individual farms but they give an good indication albeit in this scenario it relates to what I would consider to be a large herd of 80 cows on 50ha.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/what-does-it-cost-to-keep-a-suckler-cow-420043

older by the day

I am wondering, a close relation Will sell me me AA weanling Heifers, AI bred. 220 kegs approx 450 Euro. They are nice I know he is making a loss but that's what they would make in skibb Mart Friday. Would I make a profit, I have enough silage, would I sell them next March or finish them, or not buy ????

Dickie10

finsh them off grass at 27 months

Willfarman

Are they suckler bred or rearers? If anyway narrow dairy rearers let em off but if square good type then buy and I concur with Dickie above me

Farmer Dan

I've a bunch of 3/4 hereford bulls from sucklers, February March born, weighting 340 kg approx.
Not casterated. Are these suitable for finishing ax bulls or what would people recommend to do with them? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

Danzy

https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-examiner/20181114/281775630186666

Something that is worth a look at for a lot of lads.

enricoh

Watching nationwide there and some fella in connemara with an acre of willow making willow baskets n flogging on his website . Fairly artistic fella, he has nice stuff - I'd say he's flying with them.