Budget 2019 and EV

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

Which one is the tit though?

As they say on Big Brother.... "you decide!"

Jokes aside.... the Minister is the tit.

liamog

KCross wrote: »

As they say on Big Brother.... "you decide!"

Jokes aside.... the Minister is the tit.

Grant or Tax Credit we can all agree on that one!

KCross

He must have been listening to us.... he is resigning!

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

He must have been listening to us.... he is resigning!

He's a useless gombeen anyway.
Good riddance.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

He's a useless gombeen anyway.
Good riddance.

I wouldnt go that far. We've had worse.
Its who he gets replaced with now is the thing. Unlikely to be any better unfortunately.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Its who he gets replaced with now is the thing. Unlikely to be any better unfortunately.

Yeah they are all as bad as each other,
Who's the TD who drives a leaf, why can't he be the DCCAE minister!

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Yeah they are all as bad as each other,
Who's the TD who drives a leaf, why can't he be the DCCAE minister!

I vote for Danny... class act he is.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108322150&postcount=4

kuro68k

The UK just reduced the BEV tax break down to £3,500 and the PHEV one is gone completely.

DrPhilG

kuro68k wrote: »

The UK just reduced the BEV tax break down to £3,500 and the PHEV one is gone completely.

Well that's interesting.

What happens to all the Kona orders that are priced and have deposits paid based on the higher grant value?

unkel

If the car is delivered before November 11th, you still get the GBP4,500 it looks like

Linky

After that it's down to GBP3,500 and they hint the subsidy will be completely removed once another 35k EVs are sold.

DrPhilG

I'd be screwed either way then.

My Kona order is due January 17th, the Niro would be even later.

Casati

unkel wrote: »

If the car is delivered before November 11th, you still get the GBP4,500 it looks like

Linky

After that it's down to GBP3,500 and they hint the subsidy will be completely removed once another 35k EVs are sold.

Prepare to see massive number of pre reg phev’s and maybe ev’s registered before November in the UK

unkel

Just as there were massive numbers of pre reg emissions cheating diesels sold all over Europe in August and sales dropped to extreme lows in September (radical price increases because of WLTP implemented on 01/09/2018)

Casati

unkel wrote: »

Just as there were massive numbers of pre reg emissions cheating diesels sold all over Europe in August and sales dropped to extreme lows in September (radical price increases because of WLTP implemented on 01/09/2018)[/quote

Yes, great time to get a pre reg diesel that can no longer be sold due to WLTP regulations and import into Ireland

unkel

And avail of the cheap VRT and cheap motor tax, because said diesel is so clean. Not.

KCross

kuro68k wrote: »

The UK just reduced the BEV tax break down to £3,500 and the PHEV one is gone completely.

DrPhilG wrote: »

Well that's interesting.

What happens to all the Kona orders that are priced and have deposits paid based on the higher grant value?

It appears that if you have an order and the OLEV application has been submitted you have 9 months to take delivery.

Information for car buyers
I currently have a vehicle on order – will I still get a £4,500 / £2,500 grant?
Yes. As long as the dealer has correctly submitted the claim for the vehicle to OLEV, then it will qualify for a grant at the rates that were in effect when the car was ordered. However, the car must be delivered within 9 months of when the claim was submitted.

If I order a vehicle before the grant rates change, but it is not delivered and registered until after the grant rates change, will I still get a £4,500 / £2,500 grant?
Yes. As long as you order the vehicle before the grant rates change and the dealer has correctly submitted the claim for the vehicle to OLEV. Your dealer will be able to notify you of the grant you will be eligible for at the time of ordering the car.

You just need to ensure you place your Kona order before 9 Nov.

They have also put in a proviso that if the manufacturers mass register in the meantime that they will shut it down earlier.

When do you expect to make a decidsion on your Kona? When Irish eNiro prices are out? That should be before 9 Nov but might be tight to get order and paperwork into OLEV. Keep a close eye on that.

DrPhilG

To be honest my Kona decision is made, it's just too small. I'd regret spending the money on a car that has such major flaws.

Speaking of major flaws I'd nearly consider a second hand 40kwh Leaf if the price dropped enough but again I know I'd regret it.

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

I'd be screwed either way then.

My Kona order is due January 17th, the Niro would be even later.

Good news for you Phil if you are still going ahead with Kona. If the dealer has submitted the paperwork for your order by the end of this weekend, youll still get the higher grant

DrPhilG

The thought has crossed my mind to buy it with the higher grant and then sell it...

But I'm going to cancel my order tomorrow. I don't want the car, just too small.

Senature

I'm self employed, and just started looking into possibly getting a BEV sometime in the next 6 months.

Am I correct in saying that in the budget it was announced that BIK on electric vehicles is 0% for the next 3 years, capped at an OMV of 50k.

So if a company buys an electric vehicle for under 50k, all repairs, tax, any other running costs can be fully paid for by the company, and the user of the car pays no BIK at all?

Are there any rules in relation to how much the vehicle should be used for business use? Hypothetically what if total mileage for the year is 15000, with only 500 as business use?

Just amazed more people aren't doing this!

Shefwedfan

Senature wrote: »

I'm self employed, and just started looking into possibly getting a BEV sometime in the next 6 months.

Am I correct in saying that in the budget it was announced that BIK on electric vehicles is 0% for the next 3 years, capped at an OMV of 50k.

So if a company buys an electric vehicle for under 50k, all repairs, tax, any other running costs can be fully paid for by the company, and the user of the car pays no BIK at all?

Are there any rules in relation to how much the vehicle should be used for business use? Hypothetically what if total mileage for the year is 15000, with only 500 as business use?

Just amazed more people aren't doing this!

People are :-) the problem people have now is they got a Tesla for 80-100k and now BIK will kick in.....some other more sensible people used it to buy Leaf's/eGolfs etc



As the BIK is 0% is doen't matter if the car does 1 business mile and the rest personal.



I don't know about running costs, my company car was handled by lease company.....I just picked up the keys

Giotto

Excellent article by Tom McEnaney in The Times today



Please don’t crash my electric dream
Tom McEnaney
A little-noticed feature of Budget 2019 was that business owners of electric cars were thrown under a diesel-powered, noxious-gas-emitting bus. I was one of them.
Budgets serve two purposes, balancing the government’s books and influencing behaviour. It’s not complicated. If you want people to smoke less, increase the price of cigarettes. If you want people to ride more bikes, give them special tax reliefs.
When it comes to the environment there was a general expectation that Paschal Donohoe would make good on his boss’s promise and increase carbon taxes. Of all the ways in which governments can influence behaviour carbon tax is probably one of the most powerful and certainly one of the most important. Carbon taxes are also one of the most business-friendly ways of significantly reducing carbon-dioxide emissions.
European countries lead the way in accepting that climate change is man-made and irreversible, and that taxing energy is the best way to change behaviour. The United States under President Trump, on the other hand, is dismissive of evidence that climate change is a global crisis and considers any attempt to tax carbon as an assault on business.
Ireland treads a middle ground. We accept that the crisis is real but do very little about it and what we do is largely ineffective.
Take electric cars. In Norway where they have a range of tax and other incentives, such as free parking and freedom to drive in some bus lanes, electric cars made up half of all new cars sold last month. In Britain about one in twelve new cars sold is electric. In Ireland it’s one in a hundred.
Last year, Mr Donohoe made a significant step forward when he removed Benefit-In-Kind (BIK) from electric company cars.
As an environmental engineer in my early life both my inner geek and my inner environmentalist have always pushed me towards electric cars. The trouble was my work requires I sometimes make long trips and the cars that I could afford simply did not have the range. Like many people the idea of sitting for hours at a filling station while my battery took on an extra 100km of range did not appeal.
With Budget 2018, however, my company could buy an electric car with the range to do the job. This is how I became the proud driver of a Tesla Model S. That one budget provision meant that not only did I get to sit behind the wheel of a car which would otherwise have been unobtainable, but I also got to feel virtuous about it.
I found that I was only really conscious of the fumes which come from petrol and diesel cars when I stopped driving one. I know I’m privileged to be able to drive a great car but I also know that I have very significantly reduced my carbon footprint. The electricity I use still has to be generated and in Ireland most of it is generated by burning fossil fuels, but even so, my contribution to global warming has fallen dramatically.
One of the things I have learnt since going electric is that Ireland does not make it easy. Dublin city council, like other Irish local authorities does not allow private citizens in terraced homes to install a private charger on the street.
This means us terraced-house owners are dependent on ESB’s network of on-street chargers. When it installed its network of chargers, the ESB failed to
co-ordinate with Dublin city council and so the nearest charger is next to parking spaces that are not reserved for electric vehicles. Like most parking places in Dublin city centre they are almost always occupied by traditional cars.
The next charger is on the street outside the Department of the Environment on Adelaide Road. The only charger available to the department with responsibility for our climate has been fully or partially out of order for the past several months. On a good day one of the two power points will work. Of course, on that good day you still have to compete with other electric cars looking to recharge.
The thing is I still love my electric car. Despite the lack of charging infrastructure, going back to an internal combustion engine would feel like giving up my 2018 Mac to work on a 1980s PC, or would be if a 1980s PC emitted toxic fumes. And yet, after last week’s budget I may have no choice.
One of the more obscure measures in Budget 2019 was a restriction on the electric cars that can avail of BIK relief to those with an original market value of €50,000. This means that many of the small electric cars offered by traditional manufacturers will qualify but business users who need significant range, such as those who drive Teslas, are excluded. You will not get too many executives who can carry out their business in a BMW i3, which has a normal range of up to 180km, or a Nissan Leaf which at best can make 240km before recharging.
Our new government policy is that business users who drive big cars, whether by choice or necessity, will no longer be incentivised to move to electric. It seems counter- intuitive given that bigger traditional cars have a much greater environmental impact.
Given that the only winners from this move are the traditional car companies, would it be paranoid to consider that this U-turn marked a victory for their sector?
Tesla is one of the few car companies that is not a full member of the Society of the Irish Motor Industry. After the budget the society issued a statement railing against a modest 1 per cent increase in VRT for diesel cars, but failed to even mention the new BIK restrictions for electric cars. Just because I’m paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me.

NewApproach

If the OMV is in excess of €50k, the amount subject to BIK is reduced by €50k, so Teslas etc. are still hugely beneficial. No grandfathering, it applies to all cars made available from 1 January 2019.

KCross

NewApproach wrote: »

If the OMV is in excess of €50k, the amount subject to BIK is reduced by €50k, so Teslas etc. are still hugely beneficial. No grandfathering, it applies to all cars made available from 1 January 2019.

Thats the issue, until we see the fine detail of the finance bill it looks like its a hard cutoff at 50k, not an allowance upto 50k and then you pay beyond that.

If it was an allowance it would be ok.

slave1

Giotto wrote: »

Excellent article by Tom McEnaney in The Times today

...In Britain about one in twelve new cars sold is electric...

What a load of crap, even including plug in hybrids it's barely one in 28

Rod Fantana

KCross wrote: »

Thats the issue, until we see the fine detail of the finance bill it looks like its a hard cutoff at 50k, not an allowance upto 50k and then you pay beyond that.

If it was an allowance it would be ok.

Finance Bill was published this afternoon. It's an allowance up to €50k. No grandfathering at 0% for cars registered in 2018 so it doesn't really help those (including me) who were duped into buying high end Teslas by relying on Minister Donohue's statements after the last budget.

Zenith74

Rod Fantana wrote: »

Finance Bill was published this afternoon. It's an allowance up to €50k. No grandfathering at 0% for cars registered in 2018 so it doesn't really help those (including me) who were duped into buying high end Teslas by relying on Minister Donohue's statements after the last budget.

I don't think you're going to find too much sympathy there Rod, taking the "the word" of a government minister in a government that is just barely being propped up when making a decision to buy a €100k+ asset came with a non-zero amount of risk. Most people who took the plunge knew well there was a possibility it would end after a year.

KCross

Rod Fantana wrote: »

Finance Bill was published this afternoon. It's an allowance up to €50k. No grandfathering at 0% for cars registered in 2018 so it doesn't really help those (including me) who were duped into buying high end Teslas by relying on Minister Donohue's statements after the last budget.

Ah ok, I didnt realise it was published today. Must take a look.

At least it hasnt taken you out completely. You are still getting a decent reduction are you not, since the Model S would be well in excess of €50k so you'll get a reduction on the amount of BIK you pay from 50-100k? No?

Can you give some example figures to give context?

zep

Zenith74 wrote: »

Rod Fantana wrote: »

Finance Bill was published this afternoon.  It's an allowance up to €50k.  No grandfathering at 0% for cars registered in 2018 so it doesn't really help those (including me) who were duped into buying high end Teslas by relying on Minister Donohue's statements after the last budget.

I don't think you're going to find too much sympathy there Rod, taking the "the word" of a government minister in a government that is just barely being propped up when making a decision to buy a €100k+ asset came with a non-zero amount of risk.  Most people who took the plunge knew well there was a possibility it would end after a year.

Don't agree, I believe all that took the plunge did so on the word (promise) that the deal would be extended to 3 or 5 years, never with any mention of cap etc. And I think sympathy is entitled for the entrapment policies employed by our sh1t a3s goverment

slave1

zep wrote: »

Don't agree, I believe all that took the plunge did so on the word (promise) that the deal would be extended to 3 or 5 years, never with any mention of cap etc. And I think sympathy is entitled for the entrapment policies employed by our sh1t a3s goverment

Have to agree, although not in writing there was a spirit behind it. With the 1% carbon on top of diesels then if we were in a lobby state like the US I'd say the companies with pull got there way...

KCross

The relevant BIK bit from the finance bill...

where a car made available during the period 1 January 2019 to
31 December 2021 is an electric vehicle and the original market value of the car exceeds €50,000, the cash equivalent of the benefit of the car ascertained under subsection (3)(a) or (4)(a), 30 as the case may be, shall be computed on the original market value of the car reduced by €50,000.”

So, if you buy a €100k car and you do <24k km's per year you would have paid 30% BIK on the €100k per year so €30k BIK.

With this new bill the liability would now be 30% of €50k so €15k BIK instead of €30k.

Are those figures/calculations correct?

KCross

As a comparison if you were, for instance, someone who normally would go for a BMW 530d SE Saloon diesel as your company car, which retails at €68k....

BIK on that for the same mileage etc would be €20k per year.

So a €100k Tesla will cost you €5k/yr less in BIK. Not as good as 0% BIK but it is still better than the ICE alternative which is the whole point and there is also the other EV benefits (cheaper motor tax, cheaper tolls, cheaper running costs, nicer drive, etc etc).

I do think he should have grandfathered in the 2018 purchases though. He has been sly with that.

Rod Fantana

KCross wrote: »

As a comparison if you were, for instance, someone who normally would go for a BMW 530d SE Saloon diesel as your company car, which retails at €68k....

BIK on that for the same mileage etc would be €20k per year.

So a €100k Tesla will cost you €5k/yr less in BIK. Not as good as 0% BIK but it is still better than the ICE alternative which is the whole point and there is also the other EV benefits (cheaper motor tax, cheaper tolls, cheaper running costs, nicer drive, etc etc).

I do think he should have grandfathered in the 2018 purchases though. He has been sly with that.

30% BIK is way too high for an ICE car and is completely outrageous considering the much lower running costs of an EV. I reckon 15% would be about right for an EV so the €50k allowance makes it attractive to go the company car route up to an OMV of €100k. Anything over €100k and you are better off with a private purchase.

KCross

Rod Fantana wrote: »

30% BIK is way too high for an ICE car and is completely outrageous considering the much lower running costs of an EV. I reckon 15% would be about right for an EV so the €50k allowance makes it attractive to go the company car route up to an OMV of €100k. Anything over €100k and you are better off with a private purchase.

What do you mean by that?
BIK has nothing to do with running costs. Its just a money making exercise for revenue.

Are you comparing what it would cost to charge the company mileage and buy privately vs paying BIK on a company purchased EV?

BobbyBingo

zep wrote: »

Don't agree, I believe all that took the plunge did so on the word (promise) that the deal would be extended to 3 or 5 years, never with any mention of cap etc. And I think sympathy is entitled for the entrapment policies employed by our sh1t a3s goverment

I agree with you entirely. There were no caveats to what he said. What he said at the time was "While this relief is provided for an initial period of one year, it is my intention that the zero rate will remain in place for a period of time, a minimum of three to five years, sufficient to incentivise the uptake of electric vehicles."

I fully appreciate that there'll be little sympathy for those who availed of this incentive. But this is so shortsighted - the tax that they'd receive has to be easily outweighed by the positive benefits to having more EVs on the road. From what I can ascertain 111 Tesla's were sold in 2018 to the end of Sept (X's and S's). No idea how many swimmers came in. But of the new stuff, that's 111 less Range Rovers or whatever gas guzzling cars that these people would normally drive.

I think 2018 may well indeed have been the year of the Tesla in Ireland. Carzone come January 2019 will be awash (okay not quite awash but you know what I mean) with one year old Tesla's..

B.

conor_mc

KCross wrote: »

What do you mean by that?
BIK has nothing to do with running costs. Its just a money making exercise for revenue.

Are you comparing what it would cost to charge the company mileage and buy privately vs paying BIK on a company purchased EV?

The running costs, of provided by the employee themselves, is exactly the benefit they are enjoying in kind. It’s a good point tbh.

KCross

conor_mc wrote: »

The running costs, of provided by the employee themselves, is exactly the benefit they are enjoying in kind. It’s a good point tbh.

Can you give some figures to illustrate the point?

The idea here is to make the switch from an ICE company car to an EV company car more financically beneficial (and hence incentivising the consumer) and it does do that, doesnt it?

zep

BobbyBingo wrote: »

I agree with you entirely. There were no caveats to what he said. What he said at the time was "While this relief is provided for an initial period of one year, it is my intention that the zero rate will remain in place for a period of time, a minimum of three to five years, sufficient to incentivise the uptake of electric vehicles."

I fully appreciate that there'll be little sympathy for those who availed of this incentive. But this is so shortsighted - the tax that they'd receive has to be easily outweighed by the positive benefits to having more EVs on the road. From what I can ascertain 111 Tesla's were sold in 2018 to the end of Sept (X's and S's). No idea how many swimmers came in. But of the new stuff, that's 111 less Range Rovers or whatever gas guzzling cars that these people would normally drive.

I think 2018 may well indeed have been the year of the Tesla in Ireland. Carzone come January 2019 will be awash (okay not quite awash but you know what I mean) with one year old Tesla's..

B.

Couldn't agree more.

BobbyBingo

KCross wrote: »

Can you give some figures to illustrate the point?

The idea here is to make the switch from an ICE company car to an EV company car more financically beneficial (and hence incentivising the consumer) and it does do that, doesnt it?

Yes it does - you are quite correct. A €110k ICE doing small biz miles will cost 30% of €110k (gross) whereas the equivalent €110k BEV will cost 30% of €60k (gross)

Orebro

BobbyBingo wrote: »

Yes it does - you are quite correct. A €110k ICE doing small biz miles will cost 30% of €110k (gross) whereas the equivalent €110k BEV will cost 30% of €60k (gross)

Now that makes much more sense. Well done Minister.

KCross

BobbyBingo wrote: »

Yes it does - you are quite correct. A €110k ICE doing small biz miles will cost 30% of €110k (gross) whereas the equivalent €110k BEV will cost 30% of €60k (gross)

Indeed and it also means the company, or the employee, paying for fuel also scores on that front as the running costs will be significantly less so thats another incentive to switch.

And there is also the Accelerated Capital Allowance scheme which will help cash flow in year 1 which will ease the burden of paying for a more expensive EV.

Overall it makes sense to me apart from those people who jumped this year expecting 0% BIK for 3yrs. I do feel they have been hard done by.

zep

BobbyBingo wrote: »

Yes it does - you are quite correct. A €110k ICE doing small biz miles will cost 30% of €110k (gross) whereas the equivalent €110k BEV will cost 30% of €60k (gross)

Let's be honest, who would ever buy a €110k ice company car? Or what companies would provide them? None! So while you are technically correct it's a situation very hard to ever envisage been real life.

NewApproach

KCross wrote: »

Thats the issue, until we see the fine detail of the finance bill it looks like its a hard cutoff at 50k, not an allowance upto 50k and then you pay beyond that.

If it was an allowance it would be ok.

My post was in light of the finance bill

KCross

zep wrote: »

Let's be honest, who would ever buy a €110k ice company car? Or what companies would provide them? None! So while you are technically correct it's a situation very hard to ever envisage been real life.

The example I gave was a 68k 5 series BMW vs a Tesla Model S.... the Tesla was still better financially.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108386183&postcount=133

Is there some other use case where its better to buy an ICE? I havent seen it detailed yet.

Bionicleg

zep wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.

Me too, that’s the exact wording from the minister that convinced me I could afford a Tesla. Now, I can’t. Nice one government

Rod Fantana

KCross wrote: »

The example I gave was a 68k 5 series BMW vs a Tesla Model S.... the Tesla was still better financially.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108386183&postcount=133

Is there some other use case where its better to buy an ICE? I havent seen it detailed yet.

With the €50k allowance it is never going to be better to buy an ICE as a company car. I don't do any business mileage so I don't get any benefit from charging mileage to my company if my car is owned privately.

My original point was that, once you get over a certain OMV threshold, it makes no sense to purchase an EV through a company. BIK is supposed to be an approximation of the annual depreciation and running costs of a vehicle. Over a 4 year period my €130k Model X would have annual depreciation of around 12%, and running costs of approx. 3% (insurance, minimal /free electricity, almost zero maintenance). Total 15% per annum. My effective BIK rate is 18.5% (€130k OMV less €50k allowance = €80k @ 30% BIK rate = €24k BIK or 18.5% of OMV).

In my case, and for any EV over approx. €100k, it makes more financial sense to purchase privately.

It's a great incentive for anyone considering a low to mid range EV. I'm not looking for anyone's sympathy but I am bitter about being duped by the Minister and the Department of Climate Change into purchasing a high end EV through a company. If there was any indication that the BIK allowance was going to be limited to €50k I would have waited until the Model 3 became available.

catharsis

Rod Fantana wrote: »

With the €50k allowance it is never going to be better to buy an ICE as a company car. I don't do any business mileage so I don't get any benefit from charging mileage to my company if my car is owned privately.

My original point was that, once you get over a certain OMV threshold, it makes no sense to purchase an EV through a company. BIK is supposed to be an approximation of the annual depreciation and running costs of a vehicle. Over a 4 year period my €130k Model X would have annual depreciation of around 12%, and running costs of approx. 3% (insurance, minimal /free electricity, almost zero maintenance). Total 15% per annum. My effective BIK rate is 18.5% (€130k OMV less €50k allowance = €80k @ 30% BIK rate = €24k BIK or 18.5% of OMV).

In my case, and for any EV over approx. €100k, it makes more financial sense to purchase privately.

Which in essence makes the change a politically savvy stunt to exploit a building prejudice (against D4/Southside living Teslas owners) in complete opposition to the stated goals of the policy - how very unlike typical Irish politics that 'brave' decision is...

Well done Rod Fantana on pointing out the 'dodgy accounting' behind the decision.

and lest there be any doubt, I am a southside resident who has noticed and commented on the large increase in Tesla's at local FCPs, but just because something is an easy target does not make it right to kick it....

Frankly we are all supposed to be on the same side in an EV forum ... more EVs is better, no? :-)

Marcusm

This is potentially a €6k PER ANNUM grant to EV owners. Given the scale of this when compared to SEAI grants and VRT abatement, i’m Surprised that there hasn’t been more focus on this aspect. Fleet sales are not so significant in Ireland than the UK and while there is a BIK reduction (to 9% of OMV) for zero it ultra low CO2 vehicles, it doesn’t amount to as significant an annual subsidy.

It will certainly be interesting to see if this is a more efficient use of subsidy than direct purchase subsidies for expanding the country’s stock of EVs.

maclek

This brings new interest to the pricing of the Model 3 in Ireland. If the mid range comes here and is priced less than say €60,000 it is still very interesting from company car pov.

Water John

The Low Emissions Task Force (LEVT) have proposed that fees be introduced for charging. On the plus side they disagreed with fixed charges.
What's worrying is this piece;
'It claimed it would be reasonable to pitch fees for fast charge points, on a par with fuelling a fossil fuel car for the same journey'!!!