Employee Reference - Sick (Stress) Leave

Wizard45

Hi there,

Looking for some advice if possible. I work for a VERY large company and over the past few months it's become apparent that my manager is not terribly interested in supporting me with my development and would just rather be rid of me. He is a very clever and astute individual and I don't have the strength to fight with him so I've made my decision to leave...thing is over the past few weeks i've been very stressed about the whole situation, it got so bad at work that I took 2 weeks off on stress leave. I haven't felt much better since coming back and desperately want to take stress leave again. My question is this...If I manage to get a job whilst on leave and I accept the role, can my current employer tell my new employer that I'm actually on stress leave in the reference they provide? Is it a case of them being able to say whatever they like in a reference or do they need to be discreet about issues like someone being on stress leave. thank you!

OMM 0000

Eh if you're off sick but actually applying for jobs and going to interviews, that makes you look terrible.

Why don't you actually talk to your manager about your problem?

I feel like you're not making good decisions or thinking clearly at the moment.

skallywag

It depends on how the new employer checks up on the reference.

It almost certainly won't get a mention in the written reference, but if your new employer insists on calling in person then it could very well come out between the lines, particularity if you have been in effect using this leave to take interviews etc. for a new position.

Del2005

If its a large company your reference will just be you worded from x date to y date, so I wouldn't worry about that. The looking for other jobs while on sick leave won't go into a written reference but this is a small country and could be mentioned if asked.

never_mind

Del2005 wrote: »

If its a large company your reference will just be you worded from x date to y date, so I wouldn't worry about that. The looking for other jobs while on sick leave won't go into a written reference but this is a small country and could be mentioned if asked.

Would doubt that would happen. If new employer queries this with old employer, old employer would look bad (e.g. 'We were so bad that she/he had to take stress leave'). OP, I would consider asking another person in the organisation for a reference to be typed up and signed before you leave if that's possible. Make sure it's not just from X date to Y date but has some information about your character.

_Brian

This could in my experience goneother way.

I’ve always been brutally honest in references and I would definitely mention you were on leave for stress, same for absence and disciplinary.

However I know some of my colleagues would take a different view and give a glowing reference in the hope you’d get the job and be out of their hair forever.

never_mind

_Brian wrote: »

This could in my experience goneother way.

I’ve always been brutally honest in references and I would definitely mention you were on leave for stress, same for absence and disciplinary.

However I know some of my colleagues would take a different view and give a glowing reference in the hope you’d get the job and be out of their hair forever.

It's not illegal to give a bad reference but you are playing with fire if you do. Defamation can come into it and if you are not being 100% truthful and have the paper work to back it up then you are better off keeping it simple and to the point.

Not giving a reference or simply saying 'I can confirm Joe Bloggs worked as Senior Accountant in this Company from X date to Y date' is bad enough.

Stheno

_Brian wrote: »

This could in my experience goneother way.

I’ve always been brutally honest in references and I would definitely mention you were on leave for stress, same for absence and disciplinary.

However I know some of my colleagues would take a different view and give a glowing reference in the hope you’d get the job and be out of their hair forever.

Under gdpr health information is now classed as special category information and it's use is strictly controlled so the employer might be aware of that

never_mind

Stheno wrote: »

Under gdpr health information is now classed as special category information and it's use is strictly controlled so the employer might be aware of that

Not to go off point here but isn't the candidate, under GDPR, allowed access to a written reference to another company as it contains their data?

seamus

Yes, an employee would have the right to see the content of any reference that has been stored - text or audio.

In terms of GDPR, it's not that simple since by giving references, you are in effect giving your current employer permission to reveal information about you to a third party. The rules around this most reasonably interpreted would permit the former employer to provide any information that is relevant and accurate.

This would mean that he would be permitted say that you are on sick leave, without revealing the nature of that sickness.

Imagine if a new employer was to ring up for a reference after an interview and the old employer goes, "Well, he's been out on sick leave for the last month". Fairly automatically you're not going to get the job.

Don't take stress leave to do interviews. That's absolutely taking the piss.

_Brian

Stheno wrote: »

Under gdpr health information is now classed as special category information and it's use is strictly controlled so the employer might be aware of that

By submitting the employer as a referee I’d argue that the person has given previous employer permission to reveal all “relavent” data. It may be sufficient however to reveal the employee is “out on sickleave” at present.

Employees are absolutely and always have been entitled to see any reference given about them, that’s where the importance of providing truthful facts that can be backed by a paper trail on the event of someone creating a fuss.

Wanderer2010

_Brian wrote: »

This could in my experience goneother way.

I’ve always been brutally honest in references and I would definitely mention you were on leave for stress, same for absence and disciplinary.

However I know some of my colleagues would take a different view and give a glowing reference in the hope you’d get the job and be out of their hair forever.

That's very nasty of you to be that honest about someone being on leave for stress, Im delighted I don't work for you and I pity anyone who does. You do realise that people are human and prone to getting stressed in certain situations right? And that nobody can be 100% all of the time. Im sure you have off days and have taken it out on those around you. Maybe some of your workers were experiencing bullying, or maybe the boss was a bully, Yes, that includes YOU.

If it was just a bad fit, most people (well, most decent people anyway) would just cut their losses and give a neutral reference and put it down to a bad experience to allow both of you to start afresh, What you do though is try and create a block on that employee who may be wanting to start afresh with better colleagues and a more supportive environment and put the past behind them but you want them punished forever. God help you if you need some time off for stress. You are some piece of work.

skallywag

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

That's very nasty of you to be that honest about someone being on leave for stress....

In general I would agree with you.

That said, if someone was using their stress leave to do interviews etc. then I would most certainly not be hiding this fact if someone gave me a call following up on a written reference (which is indeed actually very common, regardless of the opinions of many on this forum).

If the current job is the cause of the stress then I really don't see the problem with job hunting during that time. You're taking active steps to rectify the situation and avoid going back into the environment that made you ill. Seems sensible to me and I don't see why it should look bad to anyone with a bit of common sense or empathy. Agree that an employer making a point of it in a reference is being vindictive.

Del2005

Flying Fox wrote: »

If the current job is the cause of the stress then I really don't see the problem with job hunting during that time. You're taking active steps to rectify the situation and avoid going back into the environment that made you ill. Seems sensible to me and I don't see why it should look bad to anyone with a bit of common sense or empathy. Agree that an employer making a point of it in a reference is being vindictive.

Looking for a new job while out sick is not the correct use of sick leave. If you are off for stress and doing a stress full thing, job hunting, you are taking the proverbial. If you are fit enough to job hunt you are fit enough to work.

doolox

Middle managers giving verbal references and the like needs to be carefully supervised and monitored by HR professionals especially in large corporations. It appears likely that middle managers earning a salary and not in the direct firing line financially speaking of having to fork out a big settlement in the event of a defamation suit are playing the hard man by being "brutally honest" when giving references over the phone.

Most large corporations give only the bare details in references such as start and finish dates and a very brief outline of any recorded disciplinaries if such exist. Some companies give no references at all.

I have heard of many ex colleagues who were bad mouthed and derated in phone references by disgruntled former bosses but still managed to secure their next jobs because the new bosses could see through the negativity and not be led astray by one persons bad comments. Sensibly, they would seek references from the candidates co-workers and other colleagues before making up their minds. If the bad reference was on its own, with no supporting consensus from other colleagues references then the negative reference could be ignored.

Wanderer2010

If you give an employee who was on stress leave a bad reference and/or mention it to their new employer, you are being a dcik. End of. There is absolutely no personal gain from such an act except pure malice, why would you do it? The person is no longer an issue, you never have to see them again so the excuse of "oh I wanted to make sure the new employer didn't have the same problem" doesn't wash with me. Why would you suddenly care about the welfare of a company you know nothing about.
With any luck, any manager who does such a thing may end up getting the chop some day or get bullied themselves and have to go out on stress. What goes around comes around.

skallywag

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

If you give an employee who was on stress leave a bad reference and/or mention it to their new employer, you are being as dcik. End of.

If the employee is attending interviews while they are off work on stress leave then I would have no qualms whatsoever about being open about this to a new potential employer if I was asked. I have full sympathy with an employee who is off work for genuine stress, in fact due to several cases of burn out etc. we actively will encourage time off to be taken for the same (and which is fully paid sick leave).

On the other hand, if the employee uses this time to actively do interviews etc. then that is completely acting the bollox in my book.

Springfields

If you work for a very large company chances are they will not be allowed to give any details of sick leave in a reference. I worked for a large corporation and we were only allow confirm that MS. X worked here from x to y dates. That was it. We were not allowed give anything else in writing or over the phone in case we said anything which could lead to legal action. Plenty of people look for other jobs while on sick leave. Hope something better comes along for you soon.

Wanderer2010

skallywag wrote: »

If the employee is attending interviews while they are off work on stress leave then I would have no qualms whatsoever about being open about this to a new potential employer if I was asked. I have full sympathy with an employee who is off work for genuine stress, in fact due to several cases of burn out etc. we actively will encourage time off to be taken for the same (and which is fully paid sick leave).

On the other hand, if the employee uses this time to actively do interviews etc. then that is completely acting the bollox in my book.

I don't understand your logic at all. Say an employee is off for stress and the source of the stress is the workplace, be it colleagues, a boss or the workload. Now more often that not, the worker will have broached the subject with their boss and asked for some help. Going off on stress leave is a big red flag that something is wrong from the employers end, so naturally a lot of workers will use the time they have to look around for something else and try to ease their situation.

Would you not be looking INWARD at whats causing this employee to go out on stress leave instead of cribbing about how they spend their time on this leave? What exactly would you prefer them to be doing whilst out on stress leave from their job? Watching daytime tv, sitting around doing nothing? Looking for a new job in a less toxic place is a better use of that time. Completely mixed up priorities here.

skallywag

Let me give an example.

We recently had a team member who went out for a long time on stress related leave, it was a couple of months. He was fully paid while on this sick leave. There was no obligation to do so, but we value our employees and want to stand by them when times get tough. I know that many will be thinking 'right, yeah ...' when I say that, but believe it or not some teams and companies actually really value their good workers and will go the extra mile to keep them happy.

And yes, there is naturally a lot of inward inspection going on at what was the root cause of this happening, and changes are actively being made.

That said, if this guy had spent this time hunting for a new position, then we would have been rightly pissed off. If that was his intention then he should either have taken time off from his holiday entitlement or requested unpaid leave, and most certainly not have the company financing him to find a new position.

Wanderer2010

skallywag wrote: »

Let me give an example.

We recently had a team member who went out for a long time on stress related leave, it was a couple of months. He was fully paid while on this sick leave. There was no obligation to do so, but we value our employees and want to stand by them when times get tough. I know that many will be thinking 'right, yeah ...' when I say that, but believe it or not some teams and companies actually really value their good workers and will go the extra mile to keep them happy.

And yes, there is naturally a lot of inward inspection going on at what was the root cause of this happening, and changes are actively being made.

That said, if this guy had spent this time hunting for a new position, then we would have been rightly pissed off. If that was his intention then he should either have taken time off from his holiday entitlement or requested unpaid leave, and most certainly not have the company financing him to find a new position.

Ok, I understand what you are saying there but there is nothing in your post that suggested the reason for the stress leave being taken in the first place being changed or even identified. I know you say "changes actively being made" but ive heard that waffle for years at companies I have worked for. Its a business term designed to placate workers and make them think their problems matter and you care enough to change but it means nothing unless immediate action is taken, not a "lessons learned" vague approach.

I would be very worried as well when you mention that so many workers are suffering burnout. Why? That's a big problem on the company's end and needs to be rectified immediately. Burnout indicates poor management of people and unfair workloads. It sounds like your company has bigger problems than the activities of people on stress leave.

LegacyUser

Del2005 wrote: »

Looking for a new job while out sick is not the correct use of sick leave. If you are off for stress and doing a stress full thing, job hunting, you are taking the proverbial. If you are fit enough to job hunt you are fit enough to work.

If that is what you think then it is clearly the case that you have never experienced extreme stress or burnout in your workplace. While job hunting and interviews can be stressful (and chances are you may not even be in the right frame of mind for going to interviews while being out on leave following a bad bout of stress) they aren't a patch on working in a continuously stressful working environment