ASTI ballot

Bobtheman

Sir123 wrote: »

I do acknowledge the housing crisis but surely after 5-6 years of training and working for a good few years, one should be able to get on the property ladder or at least afford a holiday?, however this isn't possible as you said. Remember, new teachers take on average 6 years to qualify now with the PME and don't start teaching until 25 ish. The wages us LPTs are on definitely won't get us anything and I'd consider pre 2011 teachers to have some edge and to be quite lucky to have what they have right now.

The reason many young teachers don't turn up to branch meetings is because they feel they aren't being represented by the union. It bugs me big time when I turn up to those meetings and when pay equality comes up, senior members quickly jump to the we can't strike clause we'll get nowhere...... "why would you vote No to the LPT pay agreement" one teacher said to me. My response, "it does nothing for me, it ain't equality,", a glance of disgust received in my direction and those senior members were happy to be voting yes. However, if tables had turned and let's say for example their pensions were going to be cut and I agreed with this change, I'd be executed there and then, no word of a lie.

The majority of older long serving teachers won't strike, however some believe deeply in us and realise that two wrongs still make a wrong. The cornmarket rep even mentioned to me that it was the older teachers that allowed this mess to happen in the first place, stating "you can blame your pay and pension on them and their reluctance to strike and protect ye". When I heard outsiders like this talk to staff it really made me realise why no young LPT would want to attend a branch meeting. Asti were isolated hence why many left. If other teacher unions had been standing in solidarity nobody would be shifting unions.

To this day, the inaction by all teacher unions, especially into and tui heavily disgusts me. We need to act and stop talking as it's getting us nowhere. We're still in the same predicament since 2011/2012, nearly a decade later...absolutely shocking.

So cornmarket reps are now the final word on things? 1000 lpts didn't leave the union to get a cid? Rather than fight on??
I have no doubt what you say about your branch meetings are true but you can't extrapulate an entire union based on that
We can't get a breakdown of who voted . Which groups. I asked SC to survey younger teachers to see what they wanted but they turned me down.
I really feel it's simplistic and without any substantiation to say it was old teachers who swung vote or for that matter young teachers. My gut tells me both groups have reluctant strikers
If young lower paid teachers really wanted to take over their branch or their union they probably have the numbers. Pointing fingers at senior colleagues will achieve nothing.

Sir123

Bobtheman wrote: »

So cornmarket reps are now the final word on things? 1000 lpts didn't leave the union to get a cid? Rather than fight on??
I have no doubt what you say about your branch meetings are true but you can't extrapulate an entire union based on that
We can't get a breakdown of who voted . Which groups. I asked SC to survey younger teachers to see what they wanted but they turned me down.
I really feel it's simplistic and without any substantiation to say it was old teachers who swung vote or for that matter young teachers. My gut tells me both groups have reluctant strikers
If young lower paid teachers really wanted to take over their branch or their union they probably have the numbers. Pointing fingers at senior colleagues will achieve nothing.

No I never said they were. 1000 lps? I believe it was a mix of people that left and not just lpts. I spoke with many teachers, of all ages, in the comprehensive sector that were having none or the industrial action and changed over to TUI. A real pity altogether. Many members fighting our corner and to see this is a disgrace. But it's easy for senior and middle aged teachers to point the finger at us also. It's a two way street and ye are the majority in the profession, not us LPTs. Btw, I never pointed all fingers at senior colleagues. In fact I mentioned that many believe in us, support us and are on our side. I just had a bad experience at a branch meeting a few months ago and I probably shouldn't have shared that here.

Both groups did swing the vote there's no doubt about that and the rest didn't bother to vote at all. We can agree to disagree on things but it's clear that government have put us in this position so that colleagues would be fighting against each other. I can't see any strikes taking place this year even though it would make sense imo. That survey would have been interesting if it was passed by sc, pity it didn't.

acequion

@Sir123, a bit of militancy is what's needed in this country so I hope you are militant.

Are ye all reading the thread about the nurses strike on AH? The mean spiritedness of some of the posters is actually breath taking! I know it's AH but wow! And that's my point earlier that not everyone supports the nurses. And many in this country would prefer to see money sucked down a black hole in the Irish sea rather than pay one red cent more to a public servant,any public servant.

Bobtheman

I personally will contest any SC election if I feel a member is full of waffle. I'm not sure posting here does any good? Rather than score phantom pointe herr outline your actions. In the real world

doc_17

So what’s the latest with the INTO and ASTI and their rejection of the deal in the ballot? Is anything happening?

Bobtheman

Any newly qualified teachers who we havent heard from? I can understand why some people dont want to strike
1) Many older teachers got screwed over during the boom high mortgages/Huge childcare
2) The poor strategy of SC during Nov strike. Actually calling it poor is being kind
3) Teachers are naturally conservative and many think they are the only people in the world with a mortgage
4)The 1000 who left. No breakdown of the 1000 but Id guess 2/3 rds were NQT
5) The erosion of Seniority means many NQTs are literally stepping over older teachers to get posts
6) The grand old duke disease-many feel whats the point when ASTI will cave in anyway?
7) Failure of INTO/TUI to back us

Im playing devil advocate here. You can thump your chests about Principles all you like-many people will not strike because of many of these points. They would want evidence to the contrary to go out .

Blaizes

Bobtheman wrote: »

Any newly qualified teachers who we havent heard from? I can understand why some people dont want to strike
1) Many older teachers got screwed over during the boom high mortgages/Huge childcare
2) The poor strategy of SC during Nov strike. Actually calling it poor is being kind
3) Teachers are naturally conservative and many think they are the only people in the world with a mortgage
4)The 1000 who left. No breakdown of the 1000 but Id guess 2/3 rds were NQT
5) The erosion of Seniority means many NQTs are literally stepping over older teachers to get posts
6) The grand old duke disease-many feel whats the point when ASTI will cave in anyway?
7) Failure of INTO/TUI to back us

Im playing devil advocate here. You can thump your chests about Principles all you like-many people will not strike because of many of these points. They would want evidence to the contrary to go out .

Good points Bob have seen a lot of number five even subbing this year to a point where I feel sorry for older teachers, hate to say this but some of the newer teachers would step over anyway whereas the old seniority system had more honour at least.Guess this is a result of the two tier pay system.But teaching is for the good of the kids isn't it at least I thought so and not about being the big bossy boss but the politics are rife now Teaching is turning cut throat, I'm only a sub but standing back can see it all.Sad really.

Icsics

Blaizes wrote: »

Good points Bob have seen a lot of number five even subbing this year to a point where I feel sorry for older teachers, hate to say this but some of the newer teachers would step over anyway whereas the old seniority system had more honour at least.Guess this is a result of the two tier pay system.But teaching is for the good of the kids isn't it at least I thought so and not about being the big bossy boss but the politics are rife now Teaching is turning cut throat, I'm only a sub but standing back can see it all.Sad really.

Same in our school, older teachers sidelined in posts rush. We've had a number of senior teachers retire early this year, if they had gotten AP1s they would have stayed for 3 more years, but they didn't so decided to retire. Major loss of experience in our school

evolving_doors

Really though.... AP posts are starting to look like paperwork middle management deskjobs (on top of teaching hours). Its all about appeasing potential inspectors and drinking the JC koolaid, because you know.... we've all been teaching the wrong way thusfar.

Cue burn out by age 40.... replace with more junior cheap labour.

Burn and churn.

Blaizes

Icsics wrote: »

Same in our school, older teachers sidelined in posts rush. We've had a number of senior teachers retire early this year, if they had gotten AP1s they would have stayed for 3 more years, but they didn't so decided to retire. Major loss of experience in our school

Yes that's it years of experience being lost, wisdom, subject knowledge, knowledge of the school and how the education system has changed/ evolved etc.A post grad just can't buy that experience it has to be lived at the coal face.

SligoBrewer

Bobtheman wrote: »

Any newly qualified teachers who we havent heard from? I can understand why some people dont want to strike
1) Many older teachers got screwed over during the boom high mortgages/Huge childcare

Young teachers are trying to match Celtic Tiger prices on a recessionary salary

Bobtheman wrote: »

2) The poor strategy of SC during Nov strike. Actually calling it poor is being kind

Of course it was poor, but did we expect the TUI and INTO to stab a fellow union in the back?

Bobtheman wrote: »

3) Teachers are naturally conservative and many think they are the only people in the world with a mortgage

And Nurses are radicals?

Bobtheman wrote: »

4)The 1000 who left. No breakdown of the 1000 but Id guess 2/3 rds were NQT

Mostly were not. LPTs just signed up to the TUI without going into the ASTI.

Bobtheman wrote: »

5) The erosion of Seniority means many NQTs are literally stepping over older teachers to get posts

Is this a bad thing? We all know older teachers who are phoning it in on posts even more than we know younger teachers who are playing politics. Come off it. Let the best person get the job, which is fair, regardless of age.

Bobtheman wrote: »

6) The grand old duke disease-many feel whats the point when ASTI will cave in anyway?

There should be enough resolve from members who were present in 2001 to see anything out. You can call out the LPTs but they don't have any experience being in a long, protracted and dirty industrial relations dispute. I'll call out my fellow LPTs, but branch level inaction isn't just confined to younger teachers. It's widespread and those teachers should be instilling union values into young members who do not know what being in a union is about.
Who was telling young teachers know that joining the TUI was a bad move when older members had gone on strike for them?
Who was telling young members that they didn't vote for the LPT salary?
Who was bitching about young vulnerable teachers instead of taking them aside and letting them know that being in a union meant unity and not division.
Young teachers hadn't a clue and the Government took advantage of it.

Bobtheman wrote: »

7) Failure of INTO/TUI to back us

And despite everything I said, if a single union joined us, we'd go on strike tomorrow.

Bobtheman

I just want to say that it's naive to say the best person gets the job. Very naive. It's often the person who is never critical of mgt. Brown nosing. However that is not the case in all appointments. A lot of the new posts are bull****.
As for the 1000 who left I will ask HQ for figures breakdown. I have heard no official statement on this
As for talking to younger members about the union you have a point. We could all do more there

SligoBrewer

Bobtheman wrote: »

I just want to say that it's naive to say the best person gets the job. Very naive. It's often the person who is never critical of mgt. Brown nosing. However that is not the case in all appointments. A lot of the new posts are bull****.
As for the 1000 who left I will ask HQ for figures breakdown. I have heard no official statement on this
As for talking to younger members about the union you have a point. We could all do more there

There was an internal audit done, most of those who left were on permanent contracts and the CID argument being used by the June convention guys was bogus.

amacca

Bobtheman wrote: »

I just want to say that it's naive to say the best person gets the job. Very naive. It's often the person who is never critical of mgt. Brown nosing. However that is not the case in all appointments. A lot of the new posts are bull****.

this +1000% imo

scoopmine

No sign of support for the nurses from INTO or TUI...

acequion

scoopmine wrote: »

No sign of support for the nurses from INTO or TUI...

There was an INTO delegation at the march today. There was a shot of them on the news.

wirelessdude01

acequion wrote:

There was an INTO delegation at the march today. There was a shot of them on the news.

Definitely not officially there wasn't.

acequion

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Definitely not officially there wasn't.

Really? But there was a group behind an INTO banner. And a primary teacher friend said she'd be at the march with the INTO contingent,so there must have been something.

I'd love to have been there but I live too far away.

kala85

acequion wrote: »

Really? But there was a group behind an INTO banner. And a primary teacher friend said she'd be at the march with the INTO contingent,so there must have been something.

I'd love to have been there but I live too far away.

It was into district 14 i think but no official support from the head honchos in parnell square. (INTO heqd office)

If the INTO were any good at all they would be out on a county by county strike with the nurses.

Hopefully other unions would join in as well.

I don't know how the nurses can afford to be out for so long on strike.

wirelessdude01

acequion wrote:

Really? But there was a group behind an INTO banner. And a primary teacher friend said she'd be at the march with the INTO contingent,so there must have been something.

It was just a branch with no support from Parnell Square. I would assume they will get a rap on the knuckles for using the INTO logo when no permission given. It was the Glor group within primary teaching that was pushing it.

acequion

Fair play to Glor,they do excellent work.

The nurses have only been on strike for three days, which isn't huge. And I really hope they stick with it and don't crumble for crumbs as we in ASTI did. ASTI did a few days strike and more back in 2000. It does hurt the pocket but you get over it. Maybe they get some strike pay from their union.

One thing that is glaringly obvious about the nurses cause is the unity that comes from it being one union. All 40.000 of them united. That is what is so badly lacking for us teachers.

Icsics

Is it looking like the nurses will get increases to their allowances? Unity is what the nurse will win this on, we'll never have that

judeboy101

Icsics wrote: »

Is it looking like the nurses will get increases to their allowances? Unity is what the nurse will win this on, we'll never have that

Not sure it all about unity, they targeted a soft spot and attacked it. If we did same to LC we would get a deal. It helps that they have a tough leader, Liam doran was useless for them this new one is a right firebrand. Any chance we could hire Brendan ogle?

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

Not sure it all about unity, they targeted a soft spot and attacked it. If we did same to LC we would get a deal. It helps that they have a tough leader, Liam doran was useless for them this new one is a right firebrand. Any chance we could hire Brendan ogle?

Agree completely on your second point,their leader is excellent. And unless she's a total hypocrite and liar [which I hugely doubt] she seems totally committed to their cause. If the INTO, as the largest teacher union,only had someone like her, pay equality would be on the way back.But alas the majority of general secretaries are Govt facilitators and get nicely rewarded down the line. As well as their huge pay checks while keeping their unions in line. I'm almost certain INMO still had Doran when voting for this current agreement [am open to correction?] because you would imagine that with current sentiment and their gutsy strike action for a 12% pay increase they'd never sign up to PSSA.

But I disgree re unity jude. Unity is one of the biggest weapons in facing down a powerful employer like the Govt. It's consistently been lack of unity that has destroyed every teacher campaign. It was even internal disunity that destroyed our last one what with the judases and their special convention that screwed us all.:mad:

kala85

acequion wrote: »

Agree completely on your second point,their leader is excellent. And unless she's a total hypocrite and liar [which I hugely doubt] she seems totally committed to their cause. If the INTO, as the largest teacher union,only had someone like her, pay equality would be on the way back.But alas the majority of general secretaries are Govt facilitators and get nicely rewarded down the line. As well as their huge pay checks while keeping their unions in line. I'm almost certain INMO still had Doran when voting for this current agreement [am open to correction?] because you would imagine that with current sentiment and their gutsy strike action for a 12% pay increase they'd never sign up to PSSA.

But I disgree re unity jude. Unity is one of the biggest weapons in facing down a powerful employer like the Govt. It's consistently been lack of unity that has destroyed every teacher campaign. It was even internal disunity that destroyed our last one what with the judases and their special convention that screwed us all.:mad:

The biggest chance of priotizing lpt wages was when gregor kerr ran for president.

I admire the nurses strike but I just hope its a positive outcome. The anger they have towards their job and pay can be really felt.

This femi legislation needs to be repealed asap and every union should be out on the streets marching.

The only issue with the nurses strike (as far as I know) is that they still have a skeleton staff in place to run the hospitals say in a and e etc. I don't know if those skeleton staff will be getting paid and the government are taking advantage of them. Its similar for any other job like the guards or the army where they cannot strike properly or have skeleton staff covering.

Its also taking a lot of strike days from the IMO and i wonder how their members will be surviving financially.

I wonder if the IMO notified vadkar and told him there would be a complete walk out of nurses from their jobs and left it to himself and harris and managers to organise cover or agency staff.

It happened in Australia with a complete walk out and they weren't too long sorting it out.


I think if the Into went on a regional strike around the country particularly in the commuting counties, the affect would be much worse for parents and having to get children minded. I think it would have an even greater impact on parents.

If the INTO and the nurses union were both on strike at the same time, i think there would be a lot of pressure on the government.

acequion

kala85 wrote: »

If the INTO and the nurses union were both on strike at the same time, i think there would be a lot of pressure on the government.

That a 1000 times! But Sheila Nunan won't have the INTO on strike. The woman should be ran out it :mad: What kind of pseudo democracy have we in this corrupt little country that there are union leaders like her and that worse,they can operate with impunity.:mad::mad:

Sorry for all the emojis guys but it really makes my blood boil!

Sir123

acequion wrote: »

That a 1000 times! But Sheila Nunan won't have the INTO on strike. The woman should be ran out it :mad: What kind of pseudo democracy have we in this corrupt little country that there are union leaders like her and that worse,they can operate with impunity.:mad::mad:

Sorry for all the emojis guys but it really makes my blood boil!

I always felt she sucked up to government big time and never represented her members. A total joke of a secretary, and I don't think the incoming secretary will be any better to be fair. INTO have really lost their credibility in my opinion. It's a shame as we really need them on our side.

Phil Ní Sheaghdha is fantastic and I have to commend her leadership. They really need to stick it out to get somewhere. Plus they haven't been punished just yet by Fempi unlike us ASTI members. Who knows where that will leave us.

kala85

Sir123 wrote: »

I always felt she sucked up to government big time and never represented her members. A total joke of a secretary, and I don't think the incoming secretary will be any better to be fair. INTO have really lost their credibility in my opinion. It's a shame as we really need them on our side.

Phil Ní Sheaghdha is fantastic and I have to commend her leadership. They really need to stick it out to get somewhere. Plus they haven't been punished just yet by Fempi unlike us ASTI members. Who knows where that will leave us.

Until fempi goes and the unions demand it goes then they are at nothing.
The penalty for breaking agreements such as deferment of increments is apparently the biggest road block or excuse to prevent unions going on strike.

Sir123

kala85 wrote: »

Until fempi goes and the unions demand it goes then they are at nothing.
The penalty for breaking agreements such as deferment of increments is apparently the biggest road block or excuse to prevent unions going on strike.

I couldn't agree more. But if nurses were treated differently to teachers in the next few weeks/ months then I could definitely see ASTI having a case against government.

judeboy101

Sir123 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. But if nurses were treated differently to teachers in the next few weeks/ months then I could definitely see ASTI having a case against government.

Like all the other "cases" they had. Consultants brought gov to court and one. Asti haven't darkened the four courts doors.