ASTI ballot

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

From what I hear anecdotally and read on the INMO facebook page there are big time divide and conquer strategies at play in the nurses' dispute resolution. And therefore, enough of the nurses might vote yes to get this over the line while many will be left with zero gains and very demoralised after 3 days of strike. Many are bitterly vowing to leave the union and many more are furious that their ballot won't be until March when momentum will certainly be much lessened,if not lost.

Sound familiar ASTI members? This FG govt seems to have mastered the knack of diffusing worker campaigns with sinister psychological tactics. In fact I heard that when they were "talking" to the nurses they behaved exactly as when "talking" to ASTI negotiators. They turned up late, hung about on their phones in the corridor while negotiators waited in the negotiating room. Like WTF??:eek:

It really would be a victory against such tactics if the nurses would stay united and vote no and I guess that remains to be seen. You would wonder though about their general secretary. Many on the facebook page are bitterly disappointed in her having fully trusted her. They're not as battle weary and cynical as we are in ASTI and are now learning the hard way that union leaders are at best suspect and at worst downright traitors. Maybe those who keep harping at ASTI failure in November 2016 might consider what a formidable machine ordinary union members are up against when they go down the risky road of industrial action and lay off with the grand old duke of York lecture.

However,the answer to it all really is quite simple. "United we stand, divided we fall". And that's why teachers always fall.

I feel like I've read the concluding chapter there.

acequion

evolving_doors wrote: »

I feel like I've read the concluding chapter there.

Maybe, evolving_doors, but we still have to keep fighting these injustices. Like everything the tide will turn and there will eventually be a zero tolerance for the double standards of trade union leaders.

salonfire

Err, you do realize that it was the Labour Court that came up with the proposed agreement and not Fine Gael?

acequion

salonfire wrote: »

Err, you do realize that it was the Labour Court that came up with the proposed agreement and not Fine Gael?

Oh really! And are we supposed to believe that Fine Gael had nothing to do with it, being the overall bosses of the state and all that??

km79

salonfire wrote: »

Err, you do realize that it was the Labour Court that came up with the proposed agreement and not Fine Gael?

Sure ..........

evolving_doors

salonfire wrote: »

Err, you do realize that it was the Labour Court that came up with the proposed agreement and not Fine Gael?

2 sides have to be party to an agreement for it to be carried through.
Nurses on one side ..... and who's on the other?

Bobtheman

Ah the labour court. Funny how the ol'labour court comes up with handy agreements when Gov back to the wall with Nurses and Guards. Gives the Gov cover then to say twas the Labour court . Are these agreements binding? How come we never seem to get one??

The nurses might reject their deal.

wirelessdude01

salonfire wrote:

Err, you do realize that it was the Labour Court that came up with the proposed agreement and not Fine Gael?

Remember the pay commission thingy. They went in with certain criteria from the government about what could and couldn't be found/said. Independent my ar$e

ethical

I see the fat businessman newspaper is sh1t stirring again today saying teachng is wonderful,most employed of the graduates,most pay etc.of course they omitted the fact that a job is cut to shreds and that maybe up to 4 or 5 teachers "share" the 36k!

Also Paschal is coming out all scissors cutting to keep the heat off Leo and Simon and of course the easy target is teachers.......anyone for another increment freeze,a strike day with wages cut etc?

markodaly

Cant be all bad.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/arts-graduates-earn-least-while-teachers-earn-most-survey-finds-1.3797241?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Feducation%2Farts-graduates-earn-least-while-teachers-earn-most-survey-finds-1.3797241

Graduate Teachers earn most according to the the IT.

Inspector Coptoor

A complete joke of an article.

You can’t compare a teacher to an Arts graduate.

Some Teachers ARE Arts graduates who have then gone on to do a Masters in Education at a cost of €12k to become teachers.
A basic Arts degree is a 3 year level 8 degree. Teachers now spend either 5 or 6 years in Higher Education depending on their subjects.

Teachers are double graduates with a level 8 and a Level 9 degree.

This article says teacher graduates have the highest starting salary at €38.7k but then goes on to say the MEDIAN salary for a Masters graduate is €40.8k.

All recent teacher graduates HAVE a masters.

Pathetic reporting.
Awful interpretation of data.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

SleetAndSnow

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

A complete joke of an article.

You can’t compare a teacher to an Arts graduate.

Some Teachers ARE Arts graduates who have then gone on to do a Masters in Education at a cost of €12k to become teachers.
A basic Arts degree is a 3 year level 8 degree. Teachers now spend either 5 or 6 years in Higher Education depending on their subjects.

Teachers are double graduates with a level 8 and a Level 9 degree.

This article says teacher graduates have the highest starting salary at €38.7k but then goes on to say the MEDIAN salary for a Masters graduate is €40.8k.

All recent teacher graduates HAVE a masters.

Pathetic reporting.
Awful interpretation of data.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

It's working though, unfortunately. Seen it posted on Reddit etc already and the bashing had already begun because the papers don't lie

markodaly

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

A complete joke of an article.

You can’t compare a teacher to an Arts graduate.

Some Teachers ARE Arts graduates who have then gone on to do a Masters in Education at a cost of €12k to become teachers.
A basic Arts degree is a 3 year level 8 degree. Teachers now spend either 5 or 6 years in Higher Education depending on their subjects.

Teachers are double graduates with a level 8 and a Level 9 degree.

This article says teacher graduates have the highest starting salary at €38.7k but then goes on to say the MEDIAN salary for a Masters graduate is €40.8k.

All recent teacher graduates HAVE a masters.

Pathetic reporting.
Awful interpretation of data.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Wouldnt most teachers be Arts graduates?
Are there statistics to show otherwise, you know for clarity and all.

The PME thing only came in 2012, so everyone before that has a 1 year H.Dip.

amacca

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

It's working though, unfortunately. Seen it posted on Reddit etc already and the bashing had already begun because the papers don't lie

The media in this country (and moreso in other countries) has a lot to answer for...............they used to serve an important function in the main when they had standards, were more independent and were rewarded properly as they moved up the ladder ...now that journalism etc has become a race to the bottom too standards have slipped to lowest common denominator stuff which even more sadly is swallowed by an increasing number of consumers of the utter bilge they pump out at times.

Its a pity its all about provoking outrage, fear, sowing division and selling you as much crap as possible all under the guise of reliable "fact checked" journalism ...when its anything but in some cases.

acequion

amacca wrote: »

The media in this country (and moreso in other countries) has a lot to answer for...............they used to serve an important function in the main when they had standards, were more independent and were rewarded properly as they moved up the ladder ...now that journalism etc has become a race to the bottom too standards have slipped to lowest common denominator stuff which even more sadly is swallowed by an increasing number of consumers of the utter bilge they pump out at times.

Its a pity its all about provoking outrage, fear, sowing division and selling you as much crap as possible all under the guise of reliable "fact checked" journalism ...when its anything but in some cases.

And the amount of people who consider what it says in the papers as gospel really is very scary. When I teach media to my students I really go all out to drill it into them that you have to take a lot of it with a pinch of salt and be prepared to read and listen to several versions of an issue before making up your mind.

Inspector Coptoor

markodaly wrote: »

Wouldnt most teachers be Arts graduates?
Are there statistics to show otherwise, you know for clarity and all.

The PME thing only came in 2012, so everyone before that has a 1 year H.Dip.

I’m not sure most teachers would be Arts graduates to be honest.

I’m a science graduate and did a HDip after that so 5 years in higher Education.
Don’t forget that a H Dip IS a level 9 qualification.

The article is talking about recent graduates.
For me, recent is 1-2 years therefore ALL teachers entering the workforce now are at Masters level and are starting on a salary below the median salary for a Masters graduate in the article YOU linked here.

SligoBrewer

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I’m not sure most teachers would be Arts graduates to be honest.

I’m a science graduate and did a HDip after that so 5 years in higher Education.
Don’t forget that a H Dip IS a level 9 qualification.

The article is talking about recent graduates.
For me, recent is 1-2 years therefore ALL teachers entering the workforce now are at Masters level and are starting on a salary below the median salary for a Masters graduate in the article YOU linked here.

PGPDE was a level 8 qualification.

Maximum teacher's starting salary is €36k, assuming full hours. Any mention of that in the Indo? Why/how are education graduates earning more?

Mardy Bum

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I’m not sure most teachers would be Arts graduates to be honest.

I’m a science graduate and did a HDip after that so 5 years in higher Education.
Don’t forget that a H Dip IS a level 9 qualification.

The article is talking about recent graduates.
For me, recent is 1-2 years therefore ALL teachers entering the workforce now are at Masters level and are starting on a salary below the median salary for a Masters graduate in the article YOU linked here.

H Dip is not a level 9. There were issues a few years ago when the QQI framework was introduced. Students were misled into thinking the PDE was a level 9 when it in fact was a level 8.

Very few NQT's start on a full salary so I am struggling to see how these stats were analysed.

SligoBrewer

Mardy Bum wrote: »

H Dip is not a level 9. There were issues a few years ago when the QQI framework was introduced. Students were misled into thinking the PDE was a level 9 when it in fact was a level 8.

Very few NQT's start on a full salary so I am struggling to see how these stats were analysed.

The only way I can see this is if it's distorted by Education graduates either leaving the country or the profession.

Inspector Coptoor

Apologies as I thought it was a level 9.

All teachers are STILL double graduates with 2 x level 8 qualifications,

It’s a fair starting wage in my opinion IF teachers starting out could get a full time job

Mardy Bum

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Apologies as I thought it was a level 9.

All teachers are STILL double graduates with 2 x level 8 qualifications,

It’s a fair starting wage in my opinion IF teachers starting out could get a full time job

PME is a level 9 though so you are not wrong there. Lots of graduates now have master's degree. It is two years and 180 credits unlike the old HDip/PDE.

evolving_doors

markodaly wrote: »

Cant be all bad.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/arts-graduates-earn-least-while-teachers-earn-most-survey-finds-1.3797241?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Feducation%2Farts-graduates-earn-least-while-teachers-earn-most-survey-finds-1.3797241

Graduate Teachers earn most according to the the IT.

That's the payscale figure.

Youve been told this before but yet you trot back to your FG masters and spin machine a nd start the same auld guff all over again.

You either enjoy wallowing in this ignorant stance or else you are part of the party.

Show me all the permanent jobs on the full starting point of the scale on educationposts.ie markodaly ?

evolving_doors

That ASTI representative on today FM was brutal.

The last text read out ... " there's a lot of teachers who only do it for the €50 per hour sub rate"
Matt asks her is it true that the sub rate is €50.. (notice he's not addressing the other allegation by the so called texter)

Her reply "I'm not sure!"... and then leaves it at that.

Now it's fine if she doesn't know exactly, but to leave those allegations of people teaching for a bit of handy pocket money!!

These guys in head office have no fight in em.

doc22

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Apologies as I thought it was a level 9.

All teachers are STILL double graduates with 2 x level 8 qualifications,

It’s a fair starting wage in my opinion IF teachers starting out could get a full time job

No they're not, students coming out with undergrads in St Pats in Thurles are qualified teachers same with all primary teachers in Mary I etc.

The survey might have a self selection bias across the board, if you were unemployed or on bad pay would you be running to fill it in

Blaizes

Interestingly no mention in that article of any of the 2,000 subs( figure I've heard) who haven't been paid properly since before Christmas.Guess that just wouldn't suit their agenda as it might elicit sympathy from the public, no mention either of all the part timers, small hour cids, people going from school to school with no job security, or the real challenges of the job itself. Just another lah lah land article.

km79

Why would you think all teachers are Arts graduates ?
Do you not think teaching the Arts related subjects is a world away from teaching Science , Technology , Construction Studies, Home Ec?

More I’ll informed “sure anyone can be a teacher “ nonsense
After hours poster again. Should have checked first before wasting my time
Ignored

markodaly

evolving_doors wrote: »

That's the payscale figure.

Youve been told this before but yet you trot back to your FG masters and spin machine a nd start the same auld guff all over again.

You either enjoy wallowing in this ignorant stance or else you are part of the party.

Show me all the permanent jobs on the full starting point of the scale on educationposts.ie markodaly ?

FG masters?
I have no political masters thank you very much, the fact that you have to retort with such language is a poor reflection on you, to be honest.

If you want to have a real discussion on permanency we can have that but drop the AH type insults. It's unbecoming.

markodaly

km79 wrote: »

Why would you think all teachers are Arts graduates ?
Do you not think teaching the Arts related subjects is a world away from teaching Science , Technology , Construction Studies, Home Ec?

More I’ll informed “sure anyone can be a teacher “ nonsense
After hours poster again. Should have checked first before wasting my time
Ignored

I presume this is directed at me?
I never said all, I said most*, due to the fact that a) most teachers teaching right now did not graduate in the past 6-7 years and b) most would have done an arts degree before doing the H.Dip/PME

As I said, if there is clear data to contradict this, by all means, show me. Otherwise, perhaps take the argument on board.

*I find it interesting that my posts are often taken out of context in this way, where posters respond to this they think they read, not what is actually written.

doc_17

I wonder are they including people who have completed courses in Educational Leadership or Guideance etc in the figures for graduate pay? That might explain why it’s too high? Or are they including people who do phds and then lecture?

amacca

markodaly wrote: »

*I find it interesting that my posts are often taken out of context in this way, where posters respond to this they think they read, not what is actually written.

Throwing stones in glasshouses are we?

In my experience you are more than capable of that yourself tbh.

The numbers who are arts graduates depends to an extent on what you/colleges classify as an arts degree, and whose definition of what constitutes an arts degree is deemed fair (if we are trying to compare things that aren't really easy to compare or break down as simplistically as you seem to want to)..... probably also depends on if you classify graduates of a teaching qualification like bachelor of education as an "arts" graduate (regardless of what subjects undertaken)...depends too if you consider someone who has studied fine art as an arts graduate...also depends on whether you consider anyone that qualified initially with an arts degree but has since become qualified in SEN or in the case of one former colleague psychology as still just an arts graduate....not to mention the many qualifications that aren't classified as BAs or MAs and indeed some that are (legacy issues as I understand it etc) and probably shouldn't be: (e.g. general science grads + many others in TCD and perhaps elsewhere get awarded a BA ...but those courses were nothing like a three year arts degree I think you might be trying to liken most teachers initial qualifications to?)

If I think about former colleagues in most recent school I was in then it certainly wasn't most either imo.....