ASTI ballot

evolving_doors

markodaly wrote: »

Is that wrong, factually? A job can be teaching, or not teaching, or working full-time hours or part-time.

The headline is probably correct but as always one has to do due diligence with any media headline, as the devil is in the detail.

Ya thanks for clearing that up, I must remember that for my next stats class so I can get better outcomes like Japan or something.

So anyway, whats the next stage. Is the ASTI awaiting INTO or TUI ballot. I've lost track.

Trekky77

evolving_doors wrote: »

Ya thanks for clearing that up, I must remember that for my next stats class so I can get better outcomes like Japan or something.

So anyway, whats the next stage. Is the ASTI awaiting INTO or TUI ballot. I've lost track.

At the moment the TUI have the position of awaiting a ballot by ASTI and INTO of its members. However ASTI are waiting for the results of INTO balloting their members.

It reminds me of the classic Mexican stand off scene from the U.S office. I have attached a photo for anyone not au faith with the sitcom.

At this stage the ball has well and truly been dropped. The nurses had all the public support we will not have. The government are getting their ducks in a row by running false headlines in the Indo and other national papers.

I actually saw an advertisement for teachers on the Indo's FB page. The irony of saying we are the best paid graduates in one article and being paid by the dept of education to advertise for teachers in another is amusing. Would love to see how much that cost?

The PR battle has been lost a long time ago.

Heads up though we are back to the grindstone on Monday!

evolving_doors

Mexican standoff

wirelessdude01

Trekky77 wrote:

At the moment the TUI have the position of awaiting a ballot by ASTI and INTO of its members. However ASTI are waiting for the results of INTO balloting their members.

As an active INTO member the ASTI best get ready for a long wait so. Our CEC have no intention or interest in balloting. Will be avoided at all costs. I'm waiting for an announcement that they will be entering talks about talks or some such waffle just before the Easter Congress week.

Bobtheman

Call them what you like-the young uns/snowflakes whatever better get off their backsides if they want change.

amacca

markodaly wrote: »

On one hand, stating that there are no permanent positions available for NQT's (which is wrong), then saying that there is a lack of graduates and loads of teachers are leaving the sector (which is unproven).

If the latter was the case, then there would be much more positions on offer due to positions opening up. The government hasn't canned, reduced or made redundant a whole bunch of teaching positions, so positions should stay equal at worst.

So in essence, logic dictates that these positions are contradictory.

Ah, I thought there was something I didn't understand about your post.

Your "logic" needs work unfortunately imo .......people could be leaving and the jobs being offered may not be permanent full-time positions which I believe was the point the poster you were responding to was making.....so in essence the two are not mutually exclusive positions.

markodaly

Bobtheman wrote: »

However the box ticking frenzy has taken over most professions and generation snowflake too busy on Facebook or tinder to fight back seriously.

A very pertinent point. Useless paperwork and boxing is the mainstay of pretty much every profession so much so doing actual work comes secondary to what one is trained to do.

markodaly

amacca wrote: »

Ah, I thought there was something I didn't understand about your post.

Your "logic" needs work unfortunately imo .......people could be leaving and the jobs being offered may not be permanent full-time positions which I believe was the point the poster you were responding to was making.....so in essence the two are not mutually exclusive positions.

Is there evidence that this is happening on a large scale across the sector?
One would think that if a permanent teacher left the profession or retired, that that permanent position would be opened up for someone else.

evolving_doors

Bobtheman wrote: »

Call them what you like-the young uns/snowflakes whatever better get off their backsides if they want change.

Well I think it's a case of everyone doing it for their own profession as a whole and not a case of one group vs another. That's the same old rabbit hole that the pubic sector vs private sector goes down.

SligoBrewer

Bobtheman wrote: »

Call them what you like-the young uns/snowflakes whatever better get off their backsides if they want change.

Ah yes; being in a union for yourself and your own interests only. What is in it for you to fight for me?

acequion

markodaly wrote: »

If only the ASTI and others took the same position things might get somewhere but I know the game. The vast majority of members of the ASTI are on a permanent contract anyway, so fighting for that for NQT is not in their own personal interest, but a pay rise sure is. Hence why they but pay before permanency, which in my own opinion is folly and to the detriment of NQT's.

You "know the game" do you?? Better than those of us who've been fighting for years for our lesser paid collegues,both for their pay and permanency?? I'm sorry but you don't even know what you're talking about!

Firstly,it was the ASTI who negotiated the Ward report, which entitles teachers to a CID [the new permanency] after just two years. And that was some achievement because in my day it took anywhere between 5-10 years to get any sort of permanency in many subjects, which meant no income during school holidays. So yes ASTI care about permanency.

Secondly, ASTI actually went out on strike in November 2016 and took a direct hit to their pockets on behalf of their lesser paid collegues and while not achieving much,did put pressure on the Govt on that issue. Also, ASTI recently voted down the current pay improvements for NQTs because it doesn't constitute pay parity. So yes ASTI members, all ASTI members young and old, do care about NQTs. In fact ASTI haven't campaigned for pay rises across the board since the strikes of 2001, almost 20 years ago. So all the evidence refutes your claim that ASTI members are more interested in their own pockets than on justice and equality and maybe you need to research more before making such ridiculous claims.

markodaly wrote: »

Civil Servants and Teachers are both public servants, are they not?
I was not intending to tar anyone with a brush but the culture no accountability, lack of real performance reviews and deep inertia are prevalent among all Public Servants, unfortunately, and especially with Civil Servants.

This obsession with "accountability" has a huge ring of "be careful what you wish for"!! Currently in teaching, it's more about the accountability of performance than actual performance. We have incidental inspections, subject inspections,whole school inspections,all very rigorous and demanding of reams of paperwork, all very distracting from the actual job of teaching but of course we must all bow to this new doctrine of "accountability."

Then you have accountability to parents, to the students themselves and to school management, the latter who sit in on new teachers' classes. While you might think that's great,I see it as counter productive as the new teacher is way more concerned with ticking the right box in front of the principal than on effectively teaching the class. And of course there is the accountability of the exam results. Fine,you're not fired if your results aren't up to scratch, but you're certainly under pressure which means you're now more interested in the performance of your class as a whole than about getting each student in it to perform to his /her individual best. But then is "performance" not the holy grail of this "accountability" culture? And how exactly do you measure "performance"?

So I find I have to scoff at that typical wide sweeping accusation against the public sector emboldened above. As long as the right boxes are ticked is the public kept happy? And is that all that matters?

judeboy101

markodaly wrote: »

Is there evidence that this is happening on a large scale across the sector?
One would think that if a permanent teacher left the profession or retired, that that permanent position would be opened up for someone else.

Yes it is. Management bodies are pushing hard for more mixed teachers eg. Teacher s that will teach more that two subjects. Makes it easy to give them bits of hours, so while they feel they are on full hrs, it could be two or 3 pole hrs they are covering.

Bobtheman

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Ah yes; being in a union for yourself and your own interests only. What is in it for you to fight for me?

I have consistently voted for the interests of younger members despite rarely seeing them at school union meetings. Have done my time as an activist. They or you have the numbers on your own to force the issue. Younger members have enough voting strength to carry a strike if they wanted to.
I want a long bitter strike. Need to clear the air. Sort out pay inequality. Sort out bull**** paperwork. I just don't trust primary teachers or TUI.

evolving_doors

I think by it's very nature quite a few new teachers have to have a certain level of supporting means to become teachers. So for some moving back home with the folks helps them to keep going on the low hours etc.
Case in point: about 5 out of 8 of our most recent nqts have moved home to 'afford' to be a teacher.
It takes a bit of a while for them to realise that their peers who moved into different professions are starting travel, earn good money, start families, get mortgages etc.

So it's like the frog in the slowly boiling water.
I know I'm generalising here but I think for some, the NQT issue doesn't really set in till its too late. Hence why a lot don't see the need to join a union straight out of college.
I think the unions should drop/lower the fees for the part timers until their contracts are more secure.

SligoBrewer

Bobtheman wrote: »

I have consistently voted for the interests of younger members despite rarely seeing them at school union meetings. Have done my time as an activist. They or you have the numbers on your own to force the issue. Younger members have enough voting strength to carry a strike if they wanted to.
I want a long bitter strike. Need to clear the air. Sort out pay inequality. Sort out bull**** paperwork. I just don't trust primary teachers or TUI.

I’ll see you at convention then.

Trekky77

As a new entrant teacher and member of TUI I have been disgusted by some of the decisions and positions that the executive have taken over the last seven years. However, I do think the only way to change the attitude is to disrupt the status quo and get involved rather than turn our backs on unions.

It frustrates me that new teachers, some of them good friends of mine have no interest in joining a union. The union has not helped itself of course, but at the very least they should have membership as an insurance.

By dividing teachers the government has actually increased non membership for the people that need it most, LPT's. If this trend continues the power we have as a group of employees will continue to dissipate. Then the powers that be can lump whatever changes they see fit (depending on the trendiest trend of a Scandanavian country at the time).

I fear the profession will continue to lose its status and we will turn into the broken model that exists in the UK. With many turning their back on the career soon after joining.

It is paramount that the younger teachers are supported, informed that this is a very real possibility and encouraged to join a union and be active. The idea that the union is our enemy suits the government very well.

Sir123

Scottish teachers possibly striking before exams start. If only we had the courage to do that here. We might then be taken seriously.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-47377120

Bobtheman

SligoBrewer wrote: »

I’ll see you at convention then.

You will. I shall contact you via PM closer to time.

Bobtheman

Trekky77 wrote: »

As a new entrant teacher and member of TUI I have been disgusted by some of the decisions and positions that the executive have taken over the last seven years. However, I do think the only way to change the attitude is to disrupt the status quo and get involved rather than turn our backs on unions.

It frustrates me that new teachers, some of them good friends of mine have no interest in joining a union. The union has not helped itself of course, but at the very least they should have membership as an insurance.

By dividing teachers the government has actually increased non membership for the people that need it most, LPT's. If this trend continues the power we have as a group of employees will continue to dissipate. Then the powers that be can lump whatever changes they see fit (depending on the trendiest trend of a Scandanavian country at the time).

I fear the profession will continue to lose its status and we will turn into the broken model that exists in the UK. With many turning their back on the career soon after joining.

It is paramount that the younger teachers are supported, informed that this is a very real possibility and encouraged to join a union and be active. The idea that the union is our enemy suits the government very well.

Why not join Asti ? Not saying we are that much better than TUI but better we are

Trekky77

Bobtheman wrote: »

Why not join Asti ? Not saying we are that much better than TUI but better we are

Fair question. When I started out teaching I was in a dual union school, I joined ASTI. I had my contract cancelled due to not being qualified and I had no work for my final dip year (Desipite literally hundreds having contracts whilst doing their dip). The union would not help me at all when it came to this issue. So I left ASTI. I joined TUI and now I'm in a solely TUI school. I've had no personal grievances since.

SligoBrewer

Trekky77 wrote: »

Fair question. When I started out teaching I was in a dual union school, I joined ASTI. I had my contract cancelled due to not being qualified and I had no work for my final dip year (Desipite literally hundreds having contracts whilst doing their dip). The union would not help me at all when it came to this issue. So I left ASTI. I joined TUI and now I'm in a solely TUI school. I've had no personal grievances since.

If they ASTI didn't help you there was probably a reason for it tbh.

Trekky77

SligoBrewer wrote: »

If they ASTI didn't help you there was probably a reason for it tbh.

It is six years ago now so I won't go into every detail. However I sought legal advice outside the union and was told I had a strong case. Didn't end up pursuing the issue and went back to part time work.

I have no massive disregard for ASTI and admire their previous positions on pay restoration but I would not join them because of this experience.

Bobtheman

If the school is totally TUI probably best to stay where you are . Internal politics etc. Plus you never know when you might need a steward on side

evolving_doors

Ha! It seems they govt and media have copped on to the tactic of divide and conquer.... just heard a raft of radio ranting about senior nurses selling out the new entrants with the newly proposed deal... "just like the teachers did."

Sir123

evolving_doors wrote: »

Ha! It seems they govt and media have copped on to the tactic of divide and conquer.... just heard a raft of radio ranting about senior nurses selling out the new entrants with the newly proposed deal... "just like the teachers did."

It's such a joke at this stage isn't it? Apparently the next Public Sector Pay Deal must set out a clear pathway to pay equalisation, a motion for convention I believe. I thought the PSSA was supposed to do that originally? I won't believe anything until I see it at this stage with the media eating out of the government's paws and vice versa as you say.

Mardy Bum

Sir123 wrote: »

It's such a joke at this stage isn't it? Apparently the next Public Sector Pay Deal must set out a clear pathway to pay equalisation, a motion for convention I believe. I thought the PSSA was supposed to do that originally? I won't believe anything until I see it at this stage with the media eating out of the government's paws and vice versa as you say.

The teachers who have worked since 2011 have lost huge amounts of money (relatively speaking), have suffered the greatest inequality and will not be repaid.

Starting salary now is over 36k, a full 6k more than 2011. Equalisation is actually quite close, it used to be 38k after allowances for the first year. Full time NQT's will be earning a fairer salary and hopefully recruitment will improve. They are in a much greater position than the graduates of 2011-2013 in terms of mortgages and renting (provided it isn't Dublin).

amacca

Mardy Bum wrote: »

hopefully recruitment will improve.

Or perhaps it would be better if it didn't....might force the powers that be to stop ****ting on the workforce.

Sir123

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The teachers who have worked since 2011 have lost huge amounts of money (relatively speaking), have suffered the greatest inequality and will not be repaid.

Starting salary now is over 36k, a full 6k more than 2011. Equalisation is actually quite close, it used to be 38k after allowances for the first year. Full time NQT's will be earning a fairer salary and hopefully recruitment will improve. They are in a much greater position than the graduates of 2011-2013 in terms of mortgages and renting (provided it isn't Dublin).

Equalisation is still quite a bit off in today's terms Mardy Bum. Remember, that 39k figure after allowances was during recessionary times, post 2009/2010 pay cut etc. Pension levy also.

So in actually terms, they are not better off. They are on an inferior pension also, career average and can't retire until 70. Many post 2013 teachers are paying into AVCs as they really need to in order to get some bit of a pension at retirement. Doesn't sound too good to me now compared to pre 2011 to be honest.

Regarding your comment on recruitment, it won't improve anytime soon guaranteed. Pay is relatively low and doesn't increase that drastically in the early years, unlike many private sector jobs that do. Many graduates are also probably turned off by terms and conditions and by the fact that the DES are promoting the profession on Facebook and the radio, hence asserting some sort of desperation regarding the profession.

Mardy Bum

Sir123 wrote: »

Equalisation is still quite a bit off in today's terms Mardy Bum. Remember, that 39k figure after allowances was during recessionary times, post 2009/2010 pay cut etc. Pension levy also.

So in actually terms, they are not better off. They are on an inferior pension also, career average and can't retire until 70. Many post 2013 teachers are paying into AVCs as they really need to in order to get some bit of a pension at retirement. Doesn't sound too good to me now compared to pre 2011 to be honest.

Regarding your comment on recruitment, it won't improve anytime soon guaranteed. Pay is relatively low and doesn't increase that drastically in the early years, unlike many private sector jobs that do. Many graduates are also probably turned off by terms and conditions and by the fact that the DES are promoting the profession on Facebook and the radio, hence asserting some sort of desperation regarding the profession.

In terms of a mortgage they are better off now. They can avail of over 18k more if you compare point 1 on the salary scale in 2011 with now. Provided they have a deposit which is another thing.

Pension isn't as good but this is a wider issue for the whole public service. I'm not saying everything is perfect, far from it in fact i.e new recruits will complete a more expensive course which have to be paid for by someone,

evolving_doors

Mardy Bum wrote: »

In terms of a mortgage they are better off now. They can avail of over 18k more if you compare point 1 on the salary scale in 2011 with now. Provided they have a deposit which is another thing.

Pension isn't as good but this is a wider issue for the whole public service. I'm not saying everything is perfect, far from it in fact i.e new recruits will complete a more expensive course which have to be paid for by someone,

Ceteris Paribus as my economics teacher used to preach... compare house prices in 2011 with 2019.

Pension is worth nothing now .