ASTI ballot

acequion

I think Mardy Bum is just trying to take a glass half full approach.

Which in most aspects of life is the best approach but NEVER when it comes to workers rights and conditions. Because that's the very thing that suits the employer. Throw a few crumbs at a disgruntled workforce, use clever divide and conquer strategies and you keep enough of them just happy enough to give up the fight.

Very dangerous. Especially when the employer is the Govt and it's typical of the Irish to take a "shur it could be worse" attitude. The attitude to take is that it couldn't be feckin worse :mad: That its so bad its downright poxy and makes the blood boil.:mad::mad: That is the only way to win a fight and achieve real results. Teachers have always been cowed by crumbs that favour some more than others and now it looks as if the nurses are going to fall into the same trap. And then you have the private sector brigade telling us to shut up, that we have it very cushy indeed and look at them how they have it so bad. And we get all ashamed and shut right up and they don't bother fighting to improve their own conditions. And employers and Govt are laughing all the way to the bank.

It's hard to be optimistic that things will change any time soon. But one thing is certain and that is that we can't adopt this dangerous "shur it could be worse" glass half full approach.We have to keep with the glass three quarters empty,it's feckin dreadful, because actually it is dreadful and keep fighting on.

Bobtheman

I think the whole pension area has been over looked by NQTs and the union as a whole. Do they realise how low it is??
Is it even part of the campaign?

markodaly

acequion wrote: »

You "know the game" do you??

I certainly do. Unfortunately many teachers cant see the wood from the trees at this stage.

Firstly,it was the ASTI who negotiated the Ward report, which entitles teachers to a CID [the new permanency] after just two years. And that was some achievement because in my day it took anywhere between 5-10 years to get any sort of permanency in many subjects, which meant no income during school holidays. So yes ASTI care about permanency.

I'll repeat, again and again, access to permanency should be the main and perhaps only game in town now.

Secondly, ASTI actually went out on strike in November 2016 and took a direct hit to their pockets on behalf of their lesser paid collegues and while not achieving much,did put pressure on the Govt on that issue.

Is this supposed to be commended? The ASTI bled members to the TUI after this debacle as far as I remember.

Also, ASTI recently voted down the current pay improvements for NQTs because it doesn't constitute pay parity.

Cutting off you nose in spite of your face perhaps. Other teaching unions did apprve HR, which is why NQT's are rare enough in the ASTI.

So yes ASTI members, all ASTI members young and old, do care about NQTs. In fact ASTI haven't campaigned for pay rises across the board since the strikes of 2001, almost 20 years ago.

You just said that teachers went on strike in 2016 for better pay.




This obsession with "accountability" has a huge ring of "be careful what you wish for"!! Currently in teaching, it's more about the accountability of performance than actual performance. We have incidental inspections, subject inspections,whole school inspections,all very rigorous and demanding of reams of paperwork, all very distracting from the actual job of teaching but of course we must all bow to this new doctrine of "accountability."

Fine,you're not fired if your results aren't up to scratch, but you're certainly under pressure which means you're now more interested in the performance of your class as a whole than about getting each student in it to perform to his /her individual best. But then is "performance" not the holy grail of this "accountability" culture? And how exactly do you measure "performance"?

There'in lies the problem. Its all window dressing as there is no accountability and unfortunately Union inertia is an issue at hand here.

So I find I have to scoff at that typical wide sweeping accusation against the public sector emboldened above. As long as the right boxes are ticked is the public kept happy? And is that all that matters?

Of course not, but the issue is accountability and when those who are accountable cannot be let go, well then there is no accountability.

markodaly

evolving_doors wrote: »

Ha! It seems they govt and media have copped on to the tactic of divide and conquer.... just heard a raft of radio ranting about senior nurses selling out the new entrants with the newly proposed deal... "just like the teachers did."

As far as I know, the nurses deal is greatly in favor of new entrants and younger nurses, while senior nurses on the top of scale get next to nothing.

Are they talking about voting no because 'there is nothing in it for them'?

People are self-interested at the end of the day.

markodaly

acequion wrote: »

Very dangerous. Especially when the employer is the Govt and it's typical of the Irish to take a "shur it could be worse" attitude. The attitude to take is that it couldn't be feckin worse :mad: That its so bad its downright poxy and makes the blood boil.:mad::mad: That is the only way to win a fight and achieve real results. Teachers have always been cowed by crumbs that favour some more than others and now it looks as if the nurses are going to fall into the same trap. And then you have the private sector brigade telling us to shut up, that we have it very cushy indeed and look at them how they have it so bad. And we get all ashamed and shut right up and they don't bother fighting to improve their own conditions. And employers and Govt are laughing all the way to the bank.

It's hard to be optimistic that things will change any time soon. But one thing is certain and that is that we can't adopt this dangerous "shur it could be worse" glass half full approach.We have to keep with the glass three quarters empty,it's feckin dreadful, because actually it is dreadful and keep fighting on.

The manifestation of this type of attitude is, of course, is the accusation, real or other wise that teachers will always be whining and moaning about everything, no matter how much they get paid or how much time off they get, they will take the 'glass half full' approach and give out about it regardless.

Ironic as this is the attitude many in the public have, yet perhaps the glass half empty approach is wearing thin these days.

Could it be worse, of course, it could!!!
Irish teachers could be paid the same as French teachers , who have a reputation of being militant and strike ready. Yet Irish teachers are paid much more than them.

If teachers want something, they need to convey it in a clear concise and reasonable manner, that is both fair teachers, parents, the taxpayer and of course the student.

I see a lot of anger here, which may well be justified. But not once have I heard anything that talks about the students well being, or indeed any idea of reform put forward that could make the learning experience and outcome for Irish students better than we have now.

Sir123

markodaly wrote: »

The manifestation of this type of attitude is, of course, is the accusation, real

Could it be worse, of course, it could!!!
Irish teachers could be paid the same as French teachers , who have a reputation of being militant and strike ready. Yet Irish teachers are paid much more than them.

We are not La République markodaly. You cannot compare apples to oranges.

acequion

markodaly wrote: »

The manifestation of this type of attitude is, of course, is the accusation, real or other wise that teachers will always be whining and moaning about everything, no matter how much they get paid or how much time off they get, they will take the 'glass half full' approach and give out about it regardless.

Ironic as this is the attitude many in the public have, yet perhaps the glass half empty approach is wearing thin these days.

Could it be worse, of course, it could!!!
Irish teachers could be paid the same as French teachers , who have a reputation of being militant and strike ready. Yet Irish teachers are paid much more than them.

If teachers want something, they need to convey it in a clear concise and reasonable manner, that is both fair teachers, parents, the taxpayer and of course the student.

I see a lot of anger here, which may well be justified. But not once have I heard anything that talks about the students well being, or indeed any idea of reform put forward that could make the learning experience and outcome for Irish students better than we have now.

You talk such rubbish markodaly,you really do!

I'm always fascinated by people who seem to have nothing better to do than post on forums of certain worker groups to have a really good go at said group of workers for having the temerity to agitate for improvements. For not shutting up and putting up. Just what is your problem? Tax payers money perhaps? As if public servants paid no tax:rolleyes: As if public servants were scroungers and not the highly qualified, specialised group many to most are.Some people just have to have someone to hate I guess :rolleyes:

I really wouldn't have the time or the brass neck to go savaging a bunch of workers on a forum the way you do. Waste of time arguing with you,you've your mind made up anyway. The fact that you saw just one thing in my entire point on accountability ie a teacher won't be fired over exam results,says it all. Zero reference to every other point I made. You're clearly not on the side of the worker anyway.

And as for your point about France. Third level education is much cheaper over there and in many cases, free, so teachers are not starting out having spent 12K on a two years masters. And as you're at the apples and oranges, why not compare Irish teacher salaries to Germany and Holland where teachers are paid more? Despite the cost of living being lower in those countries!

No doubt my post will have you back like a mad dog on a big rant. Fine, off you go as you clearly have nothing better to be doing. But I won't be wasting my time talking to you again. It's Sunday and I spend my Sundays prepping. For fear my students might all fail and I might be sacked :eek::eek:

evolving_doors

Somewhere in an attic there a portrait of a man getting more intelligent by the day.

Mardy Bum

acequion wrote: »

I think Mardy Bum is just trying to take a glass half full approach.

.

I wasn't actually. I was lamenting the fact that teachers from 11-13 (especially 13 considering the new pension and those who were ASTI)) took a huge hit in contrast with other teachers before and after. These teachers will never be repaid for taking this hit.

acequion

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I wasn't actually. I was lamenting the fact that teachers from 11-13 (especially 13 considering the new pension and those who were ASTI)) took a huge hit in contrast with other teachers before and after. These teachers will never be repaid for taking this hit.

Thank you for clarifying.

doc_17

What do you do with yourself anyway Mark? What line of work is so perfect that you feel you have to spread that gospel here?

Bobtheman

I think it would b best for all citizens if contributing to a pension was mandatory and we moved towards a state pension of at least 18k. The whole pensions debate needs to move beyond public vs private

evolving_doors

Bobtheman wrote: »

I think it would b best for all citizens if contributing to a pension was mandatory and we moved towards a state pension of at least 18k. The whole pensions debate needs to move beyond public vs private

Hear hear. Worked in Australia for a while. Pension came out automatically no problems. Just do it.

doc_17

Hello, Mark?

markodaly

Sir123 wrote: »

We are not La République markodaly. You cannot compare apples to oranges.

I agree, yet it was not I who was lamenting the lack of militancy in Irish teachers unlike those in France, it was your fellow teacher posting here.

markodaly

acequion wrote: »

I'm always fascinated by people who seem to have nothing better to do than post on forums of certain worker groups to have a really good go at said group of workers for having the temerity to agitate for improvements. For not shutting up and putting up. Just what is your problem?

Well, first of all this is a public forum. If you want to create your own private space or echo chamber I cannot stop you.

It seems you want to have everyone agree with your point of view and not be called out for any of the points you make, as if your word is gospel.

I have no problem at all, and in fact, I reject your overly personal attack, but whatever.

Some people just have to have someone to hate I guess :rolleyes:

That is just a ridiculous immature statement in fairness to make and I reject it wholly.

I really wouldn't have the time or the brass neck to go savaging a bunch of workers on a forum the way you do. Waste of time arguing with you,you've your mind made up anyway. The fact that you saw just one thing in my entire point on accountability ie a teacher won't be fired over exam results,says it all. Zero reference to every other point I made. You're clearly not on the side of the worker anyway.

Again, why do you have to be so personal? Why does it have be some kind of war for the workers versus everyone else. Most people are workers, me included. So are the people working in the Dept. of Education who most teachers have no time for.

And as for your point about France. Third level education is much cheaper over there and in many cases, free, so teachers are not starting out having spent 12K on a two years masters. And as you're at the apples and oranges, why not compare Irish teacher salaries to Germany and Holland where teachers are paid more? Despite the cost of living being lower in those countries!

The 2 years masters point is moot if one goes into Uni and does a B.Ed. Also, tax rates in most EU countries at this pay scale is much higher. Again, apples and oranges and we can all cherry pick facts to suit whatever point we are trying to make but one thing is clear, teachers demanding more pay are on a weak footing.

No doubt my post will have you back like a mad dog on a big rant.

Id say to you, look in the mirror first.

markodaly

doc_17 wrote: »

What do you do with yourself anyway Mark? What line of work is so perfect that you feel you have to spread that gospel here?

I too work in Education, as does my wife.

doc_17

markodaly wrote: »

I too work in Education, as does my wife.

So you’re a teacher? In the public sector? A lecturer in third level? An SNA? Or god forbid, an administrator? Or something else? An Inspector?

wirelessdude01

markodaly wrote:

I too work in Education, as does my wife.

Hmmmm

Bobtheman

There is no harm in outside opinions on teaching but I really think you need to do the job to understand it.
There also seems to be a beggar thy neighbor attitude in the private sector towards the public.
Ie we have **** conditions so should you.

You can't replicate the teacher / student relationship in any other context . It's unique
We do need to have better pensions all round
There is no reason for public servants to get better pensions
All that being said don't feed the trolls
What would you do to a student who mouthed **** day in day out ??

Bobtheman

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Hmmmm

No you don't you blagart

Bobtheman

Sorry that reference was not to you wireless

evolving_doors

Is there a plan for brexit when project fear begins. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0326/1038584-esri-brexit/

Presume we'll be getting a new green jersey.
New FEMPI
New croke park
New increments.

deiseindublin

evolving_doors wrote: »

Is there a plan for brexit when project fear begins. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0326/1038584-esri-brexit/

Presume we'll be getting a new green jersey.
New FEMPI
New croke park
New indecrements.

I reckon it'd be more like the above!

markodaly

evolving_doors wrote: »

Is there a plan for brexit when project fear begins. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0326/1038584-esri-brexit/

Oh, please! Don't talk like a little Englander Brexiter.

If/when Brexit happen there will be an economic impact and we may have to adjust and tinker here or there.

This will affect all of society, not just teachers or those that work in education like I.

evolving_doors

markodaly wrote: »

Oh, please! Don't talk like a little Englander Brexiter.

If/when Brexit happen there will be an economic impact and we may have to adjust and tinker here or there.

This will affect all of society, not just teachers or those that work in education like I.

Well this is a teachers forum .... so were allowed to flag issues which may affect the profession....and as you know we've been forced to put on the green jersey before... and now it's being suggested by ill informed (and those with a grá for the blueshirts) that it was the older teachers who sold out the younger ones....
Also the line being spun that it was the public sector who caused the recession.
And as you remember Michael Noonan declared the emergency over at the start of 2016... but here we are.... and here you are berating me for being concerned. I thought that as you are also 'in education' you might be concerned... btw if there is a hard brexit there isn't a hope in hell anyone in early childcare will be getting a pay rise. Maybe you should focus your energies on that.

markodaly

evolving_doors wrote: »

Well this is a teachers forum .... so were allowed to flag issues which may affect the profession.

Of course, but do you also need to use terms like 'Project Fear' when talking about Brexit? It is straight out of the JRM playbook.

...and as you know we've been forced to put on the green jersey before... and now it's being suggested by ill informed (and those with a grá for the blueshirts) that it was the older teachers who sold out the younger ones....

Blueshirts? Again, why use such pejorative terms and then expect to be taken seriously.

..here you are berating me for being concerned. I thought that as you are also 'in education' you might be concerned...

Berating? Not at all, I am criticising your use of terms like 'Project Fear' in relation to Brexit and its impact on Ireland.

btw if there is a hard Brexit there isn't a hope in hell anyone in early childcare will be getting a pay rise. Maybe you should focus your energies on that.

What do you suggest I do? Write a strongly worded letter to Teresa May to tell her my concern's... as if you or I have any real power or say in Brexit.

km79

Why do ye bother replying ?
Not sure how a post attacking teachers for posting about teaching conditions in a teaching forum is still there anyway .........
I can’t report it as he is on ignore list

evolving_doors

markodaly wrote: »

Of course, but do you also need to use terms like 'Project Fear' when talking about Brexit? It is straight out of the JRM playbook.



Blueshirts? Again, why use such pejorative terms and then expect to be taken seriously.




Berating? Not at all, I am criticising your use of terms like 'Project Fear' in relation to Brexit and its impact on Ireland.



What do you suggest I do? Write a strongly worded letter to Teresa May to tell her my concern's... as if you or I have any real power or say in Brexit.

So you agree with Michael Noonan when he said the emergency was over in 2016?

ethical

We all know,(especially teachers and most public servants) that Michael Noonan and his ilk preached to the "outside world" that the recession was over and everything was hunky dory again.Didnt the same Mr.Noonan also say that "all the low hanging fruit" had been harvested! Nothing can be further from the truth! There is quite a pot of low hanging fruit yet to be harvested and its never going to be! The jobs for the boys (and ladies also!) brigade is alive and well.
We,those of us involved in sport,hear the line " giving something back " and there are many sportspeople who have never forgotten where they started out their careers and willingly return and coach,give time ,chat and promote their old club/team. Why don't teachers do the same rather than crucify their "once" colleagues.
Unfortunately ,as far as the teaching profession goes the opposite is the truth.If I see another feckin retired gold plated pensioner(I'm talking here of the full pension,post holder and in many cases Principal who took the system for fools and got away with it) come in to do CP Hours,collect 7-800 cash and talk sh1t for two hours while the young mother on a 4 hour CID is worried that she will not make it to the creche on time to collect her baby.Do not get me started about the interview boards, (1000 euro per day!),there are a shower of greedy Sh1tes on the circuit collecting "low hanging fruit" and no one gives a damn. The money wasted on these parasites could employ countless teachers and provide assistance for needy school children.Unions are only aiding and abetting the cause of thes money grabbers.Teaching stinks to high heavens in Ireland.Bast*rds ripping off the future teachers for all just to line their own pockets........did they not ever hear that "there are no pockets in shrouds".I call ,once again,for an enquiry into the practices of ETBs and CEIST run schools ,was it not once a crime to misuse taxpayers money!