Got to love the left.

hatrickpatrick

storker wrote: »

I think one of the biggest failings of the centre and left and even non-loony right has been to dismiss that result as being due to stupidity, "deplorables" etc, rather than do some real self-analysis regarding what it was about more mainstream candidates and policies that made Trump look electable.

It's easy to dismiss it all with a self-satisfied hand-wave as "stupidity", but this is the same electorate that put Obama into the White House twice - were they stupid then too?

It's this attitude - that it was "stupidity" which led to both Brexit and Trump - which was in my view instrumental in producing those very results. People do not take kindly to being talked down to, being told what to do, being told that people doing better than them in life 'know what's best for them', or being insulted. Call it irrational, immoral, immature, whatever you like, but it's an extremely common human emotional response - the "doubling down" phenomenon, IE the more people tell you to do X, the more some people will do Y just out of sheer "you can't tell me what to do and I'm going to throw that in your face" bloody-mindedness.

I personally know people who voted for Trump for that very reason - the fact that the entirety of the media seemed to be championing Clinton instead of reporting on the election in a clinical and unopinionated manner. To these people, it genuinely felt like a conspiracy of the elite, when every single talking head and commentator was actively condemning one side and celebrating the other, and they voted for Trump for literally no reason other than "this is a democracy and I can vote for whoever I f*cking like, dammit". I don't know anyone who voted for Brexit on these grounds, but I have absolutely no doubt that this is the case for at least some yes voters.

It's extremely basic human psychology IMO. Constantly telling people "just do it, we don't have to explain why" and "if you don't do what we tell you, then you're an idiot, or a bad person, or an ignoramus" is literally the one absolutely iron-clad surefire way to make sure you lose an election. Politicians and those who cheerlead them need to re-discover the concept that each and every vote has to be earned, and that telling people "vote for me because vote for me" is never going to be good enough to win an election. Nor is "vote for me because if you don't, you suck".

blinding

Will I Am Not wrote: »

That’s like asking how do you know this lad is a “righty” :pac:

Weren’t the Nazis , National Socialists ?

Hector Savage

^^ That pic, is that Edward Furlong in an old promo shoot for American History X?
Great film btw.

Irish Guitarist

That moron with the mobile and the headphones needs a good kick up the arse.

Next time they're deporting the rapist they should give him a tranquiliser, tie him up, shove him in a suitcase and let the baggage handlers deal with him. https://www.express.co.uk/travel/articles/1020797/baggage-handlers-manchester-airport-viral-video

Danzy

Brian? wrote: »

Jesus, my head hurts.

1. I support their cause: anti fascism. I’ve clarified this multiple times. I don’t support their methods because they are violent. I don’t need a report to know.

ANTIFA do not have a cause, just an excuse.

People who get off on street violence, intimidation and control before heading back to the parents suburban home.

It is an "in group" with its own dynamic, culture and terminology.

Like skinhead gang but for the Middle Class.

Danzy

storker wrote: »

I think one of the biggest failings of the centre and left and even non-loony right has been to dismiss that result as being due to stupidity, "deplorables" etc, rather than do some real self-analysis regarding what it was about more mainstream candidates and policies that made Trump look electable.

It's easy to dismiss it all with a self-satisfied hand-wave as "stupidity", but this is the same electorate that put Obama into the White House twice - were they stupid then too?

They won't do that, generally, they view themselves as holders of a sacred truth, the only reasons someone could disagree with them must be stupidity, bigotry etc.

There are too many activists today that would have been missionary priests roaring at the natives a century ago.

Not all on the Left but enough to be a problem and damage the brand overall.

Look at the election results across Western Europe . The Left is falling away as an electoral force.

storker

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Call it irrational, immoral, immature, whatever you like, but it's an extremely common human emotional response - the "doubling down" phenomenon, IE the more people tell you to do X, the more some people will do Y just out of sheer "you can't tell me what to do and I'm going to throw that in your face" bloody-mindedness.

I think there's certainly an element of this, but I also think it's policy/track record-based. For the average white voter, the message from the left appears to be "you don't matter - minorities matter", from the more centre left it appears to be "you don't matter - unions and public servants matter", from the centre and right, it appears to be "you don't matter - the markets matter". This leaves people ripe for an idea or personality who will come in and say, "yes you do matter - vote for me/Brexit to show it, and I'll do stuff for you". When people know that change isn't going to come from some quarters, I think they're likely to look to where it might come from, because they believe possibility of positive change is better than the certainly of none, however, unlikely or unpalatable the source might be and that's what's helped lead us to Trump and Brexit.

This is what Trump's opponents need to address, instead of fixating on the election dirty tricks. These should of course be investigated, but even if this causes the downfall of Trump, they will still be left with Pence as president, which may be an even more chilling prospect. Better to concentrate on stopping them being elected in the first place, and the way to do that is to earn votes, not cry foul after you've lost.

Tell me how

Danzy wrote:

Look at the election results across Western Europe . The Left is falling away as an electoral force.

Virtually all European governments still held by left leaning parties or coalitions.

If falling away as an electoral force is still holding the power than it just shows the lunacy of some observers.

FTA69

Tell me how wrote: »

Virtually all European governments still held by left leaning parties or coalitions.

If falling away as an electoral force is still holding the power than it just shows the lunacy of some observers.

Are they? England has the Tories, Eastern Europe is pretty much all solidly Right wing. Italy is run by the populist right. France has technocratic conservatives with the far right breathing down their necks. Germany is being run by conservatives, Austria has the far right in government.

Europe in general is being run by conservative parties that have accepted neo-liberal economic consensus, hence the rise of the far right politically.