How long to evict tenants?

lalababa

To active landlords: how long does it take to evict tenants for various reasons let's say non payment of rent? From the day they fail to pay to the day that the bailiffs/gaurds actually come to break down the door. If the tenant has used all available stalling tactics/changed locks etc.?
What are yeer experiences?
And how much does it cost not including rent arrears?
I'm curious as to how unfit for purpose /expensive the eviction system is in Ireland.

Gumbo

2-3 years

10pennymixup

You addressed your OP to active landlords.

Somehow I think you will get a lot more replies from EX landlords. That most people after a catastrophic eviction process of 2/3 years, are now no longer active LL's.

4ensic15

I met a man last week who get a determination order in 2016. It was appealed and then there was an appeal to the High Court. he is still waitying for his determination order to come into effect.

Sleeper12

Sometimes you are better off paying a few thousand to your Tennant to vacate.

Not a good practice for the industry because the more landlords pay the tenants the more tenants will play this game

Spanish Eyes

Should be one year maximum to get messers out. That will never happen though, because the evicted will be back on the housing list/HAP. They know how the system works and what their so called rights are. To hell with the home owner who is providing shelter.

I wonder does anyone know how non payment of rent/overholding/refusal to leave is dealt with in mainland Europe. Since they seem to be the bastion of renting. Be interesting to know.

Pkiernan

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Should be one year maximum to get messers out. That will never happen though, because the evicted will be back on the housing list/HAP. They know how the system works and what their so called rights are. To hell with the home owner who is providing shelter.

I wonder does anyone know how non payment of rent/overholding/refusal to leave is dealt with in mainland Europe. Since they seem to be the bastion of renting. Be interesting to know.

1 year?

Wow.

Should be 1 month .

unattendedbag

We're not too different to the UK system where they are housing social tenants through private landlords and local councils pay the rent. However they have a much more efficient and streamlined eviction system. They can usually wrap the whole thing up in a matter of months compared to years here.
They go directly to the courts for eviction order instead of dancing with the RTB.
However the UK don't have an equivalent of HAPS where the landlord gets paid directly from the council. That is a bonus in this jurisdiction and every landlord here should get in on it if they suspect their tenants might withhold rent.

DubCount

In Ireland, between pointless RTB hearings and the actual legal process, it can take 2 years plus. Rent arrears alone could be 40k and over 50k with legal costs etc. included.

In the UK, 3 months arears is automatic grounds for eviction - no ifs buts or maybes. No RTB, straight to the County Court, and escalate to the high court if necessary. Usually done and sorted within 9 months. Still too long, but a much better process than ours.

lalababa

Apologies meant actual landlords active and non active.
Reading the posts here and all I can say is Jeasus H. Christ!
So one problem tenant could basically make you lose enough to lose the property / mortgage with no comeback. Or is there special insurance for arrears and damages?

4ensic15

There is supposedly some insurance but it is hedged with qualifications and conditions.

DubCount

lalababa wrote: »

Apologies meant actual landlords active and non active.
Reading the posts here and all I can say is Jeasus H. Christ!
So one problem tenant could basically make you lose enough to lose the property / mortgage with no comeback. Or is there special insurance for arrears and damages?

There is some insurance available. Its possible to get cover for up to 11 months rent, but that cover costs about 2% of rent and comes with significant tenant check requirements and T&Cs. Its not going to cover the full loss or anything like it if you get stung. Damage to the property is difficult to insure as its generally deliberate damage, and insurance companies don't like insuring against deliberate acts.

1 bad tenant could easily be enough to lose the property or wreck a landlord's family finances. Not many small landlords have deep enough pockets to cope with even one rogue tenant. The best bit - tax losses you rack up can only be offset against rental income profits - not much use if you only have 1 property.

I know there will be replies to say if you go into business, you take the profits and you take the risks. This level risk has small landlords jumping out of the game at an alarming rate. Some welcome large REITs taking over - I don't.

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Should be one year maximum to get messers out. That will never happen though, because the evicted will be back on the housing list/HAP. They know how the system works and what their so called rights are. To hell with the home owner who is providing shelter.

I wonder does anyone know how non payment of rent/overholding/refusal to leave is dealt with in mainland Europe. Since they seem to be the bastion of renting. Be interesting to know.

A year? How the hell is that fair. One month absolutely max to get a non-paying or other lease braking tenant gone.

3DataModem

For a motivated tenant who wants to stay no matter what and knows the system: 2y

For a casual overholder who “doesn’t want to move” but will eventually respond to due process: 1y

CruelCoin

3DataModem wrote: »

For a motivated tenant who wants to stay no matter what and knows the system: 2y

For a casual overholder who “doesn’t want to move” but will eventually respond to due process: 1y

Plus the overholders tend to make ****e of the place.

Has happened to my parents twice. They've just last week sold the apartment in question.
-1 rental property.

I can really make sense to just pay them off. Much as it may stick in your craw.

I would use any method possible before I'd pay them off, its absolute madness rewarding scum like that.

CruelCoin

Duncan Numerous Pin wrote: »

I would use any method possible before I'd pay them off, its absolute madness rewarding scum like that.

The only other methods available would land you in court, not them.

Nobody accounts for the inevitable overholding and destruction that happens in an alarmingly large minority of tenancies.

Really rents should be risen to take this into account.

martyoo

Duncan Numerous Pin wrote: »

I would use any method possible before I'd pay them off, its absolute madness rewarding scum like that.

It's probably the best method. If you go down the legal route it will end up costing considerably more between rent arrears, legal costs and potential damage to the property.

Bag of cash and change the locks.

Cuddlesworth

4ensic15 wrote: »

I met a man last week who get a determination order in 2016. It was appealed and then there was an appeal to the High Court. he is still waitying for his determination order to come into effect.

I met a landlord years ago who had spent 4 years evicting a tenant. The way he dealt with it at the start was sloppy and the tenant had played him and the courts masterfully. Dude was owed over 40k at the end, tenant was social welfare so no point in pursuing.

lalababa wrote: »

I'm curious as to how unfit for purpose /expensive the eviction system is in Ireland.

Its probably better to compare it to a better system.

In Ireland
You have to issue a 14 days notice of arrears. -2 weeks.
Then you have to apply to the RTB and wait for a determination order. According the RTB, that's an average of 5 months to the order. - 22 weeks
The you can apply to the circuit court for a eviction order where Dublin Curcuit Court had waiting times of 26 weeks(I think, hard to find statistics). - 48 Weeks
The Eviction order will usually have a timeline to it, so being generous you can add 8 weeks to that date on the eviction notice. - 56 weeks.

I've never dealt with a landlord who has gone past this point, but I believe there is some stupid process around getting the sheriff to actually act on the eviction notice. I'm sure somebody else will pipe up with that stupidity. All of this assumes the tenant doesn't play the system(and I don't want to write how on a public forum)


In England the process is this, these timelines are gleaned from British site and of course could vary depending on location.
Give 21 days notice of arrears. 3 weeks
After 2 months of arrears, begin eviction proceedings with the courts. - 8 weeks.
Begin possession order, using accelerated procedure, takes roughly 9 weeks depending on location. - 17 weeks.
Bailiff evicts 5 weeks on average after order given by courts - 22 weeks

This could be cut short by about 10 weeks by applying to the high court and using their enforcement officers, best done by solicitors and costly due to that - 12 Weeks.


So to be clear about this, you can have a tenant out in England before the RTB wipe their arse.

unattendedbag wrote: »

However the UK don't have an equivalent of HAPS where the landlord gets paid directly from the council. That is a bonus in this jurisdiction and every landlord here should get in on it if they suspect their tenants might withhold rent.

You can get Housing benefit. And you can apply to the council to recover the moneys owed by their tenant apparently. Not sure if thats correct, shows how much of a farce our system is if its true.

quadrifoglio verde

unattendedbag wrote: »

However the UK don't have an equivalent of HAPS where the landlord gets paid directly from the council. That is a bonus in this jurisdiction and every landlord here should get in on it if they suspect their tenants might withhold rent.

While in theory HAP protects the landlord in reality it doesn't. It protects the council. If the tenant fails to pay their contribution of the rent to the council, then the council will stop payment to the landlord.

They'll also refuse to deal with the landlord or inform them of this as the agreement is between the tenant and landlord.

Then you've the fact that the rent is paid in arrears, where as a private tenant pays the rent upfront.

There's also the likelihood that they'll spend more time in the property, leading to an increase in wear and tear. While there are a number of HAP tenants out working a 40 hour week, they're in the minority

LiamoSail

Can the tenant, once evicted, be taken to court to pay the arrears? Provided obviously it's a person with some means

Sleeper12

LiamoSail wrote: »

Can the tenant, once evicted, be taken to court to pay the arrears? Provided obviously it's a person with some means

Tenant usually wont have the money. If they did they would most likely pay the rent without falling behind. I defiantly wouldn't be spending more money bringing someone to court when even if I won they won't have funds to pay.

CIARAN_BOYLE

LiamoSail wrote: »

Can the tenant, once evicted, be taken to court to pay the arrears? Provided obviously it's a person with some means

the usual answer offered by the courts is a fiver a month attachment order from the wages.

DubCount

LiamoSail wrote: »

Can the tenant, once evicted, be taken to court to pay the arrears? Provided obviously it's a person with some means

You can take a civil action against the tenant, but in all probability they will claim inability to pay. You could be several years even getting the legal costs of the case recouped, let alone any rent arrears or damage costs. Economically its not a worthwhile venture.

Of course, you have to find the tenant first before you can take an action - that wont be easy and you wont get any help from official Ireland in tracking them down.

spaceHopper

Late rent 14 days notice to rectify, fail to do that 28 days notice to quit, then change the locks, let them go to the RTB. Where does it say you have to get a determination order, that's if there is a dispute, there's no dispute till they open one.

Even if you lose and have to pay compensation it will be less than 3 years of heart ache. If a tenant knows you are willing to do that then they will have nothing to gain by messing you about.

DubCount

spaceHopper wrote: »

then change the locks

Thats a really bad idea. The RTB can issue a large fine for illegal eviction and have the tenancy re-instated as well. The process may be broken, but legally thats all thats avalable to you.

CruelCoin

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I've never dealt with a landlord who has gone past this point, but I believe there is some stupid process around getting the sheriff to actually act on the eviction notice. I'm sure somebody else will pipe up with that stupidity.

Some counties have sheriffs, others have court registrars.

Sheriffs are private citizens who get paid on results. Ergo, they tend to be effective, or they don't eat.

Court registrars are another breed entirely. The stereotypical public sector slowness and "fuggit, I have me job anyway" prevails and they will do very little if anything at all.
For this reason, if you're ever lodging a claim to retrieve money from a business debtor, always do it in a county with a sheriff!

CruelCoin

CruelCoin wrote: »

The only other methods available would land you in court, not them.

I'd rather take my chances with ending up in court than give them a cent.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Tenant usually wont have the money. If they did they would most likely pay the rent without falling behind. I defiantly wouldn't be spending more money bringing someone to court when even if I won they won't have funds to pay.

At least it might make their lives a bit miserable getting dragged into court, getting in the papers and most likely getting a order that they have to pay what they have over time. Also I would not be making the assumption they don't have the money just because they didn't pay, I would say most tenants who stop paying have the money but know they can spend it on other stuff and get away without paying rent and until a few examples are made where tenants have the majority of their salary or dole is taken and given to the LL to clear arrears then the cycle will continue.

Cuddlesworth

spaceHopper wrote: »

Late rent 14 days notice to rectify, fail to do that 28 days notice to quit, then change the locks, let them go to the RTB. Where does it say you have to get a determination order, that's if there is a dispute, there's no dispute till they open one.

Even if you lose and have to pay compensation it will be less than 3 years of heart ache. If a tenant knows you are willing to do that then they will have nothing to gain by messing you about.

That's about a 20k fine right there in damages and I believe they can also claim costs too. I doubt it works out cheaper but the fact it does shows how broken the system is.

The RTB should be a live register of tenants and landlords. Evictions and fines should be handled and recovered by the RTB. Landlords and tenants should be banned from receiving its protections until debts are settled.

Tenant in arrears and evicted? Should take 2-3 months at most to repossession, the process should never leave the RTB. The tenant/s should be searchable and blacklisted from all RTB and legislative protections if in arrears of payments.

Landlord illegally evicted tenant? Same again, searchable by new tenants, blacklisted from new registrations and automatic default on new cases if left in arrears.

spaceHopper

DubCount wrote: »

Thats a really bad idea. The RTB can issue a large fine for illegal eviction and have the tenancy re-instated as well. The process may be broken, but legally thats all thats avalable to you.

It's good practice to change the locks after each tenant. It's not illegal, you gave them notice to move out if they didn't open a dispute then too bad. Either way they can go to the high court if they wan't they aren't getting back in. You be mad to let them in let the RTB issue a fine if they want to it would be the lesser of two evils besides how would they reinstate the tenancy it would be let by the time they even open the envelop to process it.

DubCount

spaceHopper wrote: »

It's good practice to change the locks after each tenant. It's not illegal, you gave them notice to move out if they didn't open a dispute then too bad. Either way they can go to the high court if they wan't they aren't getting back in. You be mad to let them in let the RTB issue a fine if they want to it would be the lesser of two evils besides how would they reinstate the tenancy it would be let by the time they even open the envelop to process it.

It is good practice to change locks after each tenancy - on that much we agree.

From the following RTB document - https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/Comms%20and%20Research/Being_a_Good_Tenant_-_a_guide_to_the_Residential_Tenancies_Act.pdf

"An illegal eviction can happen where a landlord, through force, intimidation or otherwise (such as cutting off utilities, changing the locks and so on) denies you access to your rented property or removes your belongings from the property.

If the RTB finds that a landlord has evicted you unlawfully, your landlord may be directed to allow you re-enter the property. The landlord may also have to pay you damages (up to €20,000). This amount will depend on the circumstances of the case."

Not letting them back in may not be an option.