Problematic Friend (feeling betrayed)

JackTaylorFan

So, recently I found out a friend of mine, who I have trusted with my trans status has been telling other people without my knowledge or my consent.

Just a few days ago I was having a drink with her, when she invited a few of her new college friends to join us. And it didn't take long to notice a couple of them were a little off with me. It was noticeable enough to the point my friend picked up on it as well.

Long story short: at the end of the evening, I remarked to my friend about how weird some of her mates had been, and that's when she told me she had let it slip: that I was trans. Her reasoning was that she never really imagined I would ever become acquainted with this other circle of friends - unfortunately, life being what it is, I did. She apologised, but I have effectively been outed by somebody I thought I could trust.

And I am struggling with this revelation. I believe it should be my right to choose the people whom I tell. Not for this very intimate part of me to be shared with a bunch of strangers ****e-talking over drinks (which is apparently exactly what happened). I told her I wasn't happy about it, and though she said she was sorry, I more than suspect that she would and will do it again with a few drinks in her. The sad thing is I really liked her. I have known her a couple of years now and I thought we had a strong connection. But this is a betrayal.

So now I am left with a scenario where I either ditch this friend completely (as she clearly can't be trusted), or continue to see her knowing full well she will likely continue to break my trust (she also admitted that she has told other people in a similar way). So I have no idea what the best move here is. I am currently weighing up what her friendship actually means to me, because it clearly doesn't seem to mean that much to her if she can't respect my wish to not be outed as a source of drunken entertainment.

I'm not really asking for advice here, merely venting... but you are of course free to voice your opinion.

Thanks

Ten of Swords

Does your friend understand why you feel so betrayed or does she feel that no boundary was crossed? How did her friends behave around you?

JackTaylorFan

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Does your friend understand why you feel so betrayed or does she feel that no boundary was crossed? How did her friends behave around you?

I think she understands she crossed a line; she was apologetic about it. But i honestly think she can't help herself. It's as if for her it's something to talk about that makes conversations more interesting. I can only imagine the context in which it came up. Something along the lines of "I have this trans friend" I would guess.

As for how exactly her friends were acting when I met them? It's hard to put a finger on exactly. Out of the 3 people she invited along, two were definitely off and the third was okayish. I don't know, I guess there is a chance, they are just kinda rude and aloof with everyone new they meet - but when I asked my friend if her friends knew beforehand, she said "Yeah, sorry, I told them", well, it kinda all added up in my head. For whatever reason, and maybe it's just how it goes sometimes, two of her mates were not interested in talking to me at all (and despite my rep on here, that's usually not the case with people I meet).

The main issue here, really, is the fact I can't trust my friend anymore. Which is sad. I guess, as a consequence of all this, I am left to wonder if her friends were off with me because of my trans status or was it something else. All I know for certain is that I wouldn't feel so bad if my friend hadn't blabbed. I could chalk it up to something else - but nope, can't shake the idea that their prior knowledge of my being trans had something to do with it. And therein is the biggest issue: by outing me, my friend has contributed to my feeling worse about being trans than I might otherwise do.

Anyways, I hope that made sense.

LLMMLL

I think the main issue is that you think they’re going to continue treating your identity as gossip going forward.

I have a friend who treats people’s secrets as general comversation. I should have realized quite early as he told me about a mutual friends STI very soon after we became friendly. He’s harmless and it’s not malicious at all so if I tell him anything I assume it will be broadcast.

There’s one big piece of info about me that I don’t want broadcast to everyone he knows so I don’t tell him, and never will.

So if you continue your friendship with this person just be aware that everything you tell them is liable to be broadcast.

As for the piece of info they already have, maybe try talking to them that you’re not trying to keep a secret, but that your identity is core to you and having it discussed feels like a violation. Maybe that’s not how you feel at all but maybe it will make her lean more towards protecting her friend from violation rather than the thrill of revealing a secret.

JackTaylorFan

Thanks, LLMMLL

I honestly thought with everything that has gone on between and everything I have told her, including how difficult it was for me to tell her in the first place, she would understand how much it meant to me. So, yeah really disappointed with her.

Right now, I am just avoiding her. Not sure, what i'll do in the long run, but I also don't think she is capable of changing. I am probably going to keep her at a distance from now on.

Muscles Schultz

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

So, recently I found out a friend of mine, who I have trusted with my trans status has been telling other people without my knowledge or my consent.

Just a few days ago I was having a drink with her, when she invited a few of her new college friends to join us. And it didn't take long to notice a couple of them were a little off with me. It was noticeable enough to the point my friend picked up on it as well.

Long story short: at the end of the evening, I remarked to my friend about how weird some of her mates had been, and that's when she told me she had let it slip: that I was trans. Her reasoning was that she never really imagined I would ever become acquainted with this other circle of friends - unfortunately, life being what it is, I did. She apologised, but I have effectively been outed by somebody I thought I could trust.

And I am struggling with this revelation. I believe it should be my right to choose the people whom I tell. Not for this very intimate part of me to be shared with a bunch of strangers ****e-talking over drinks (which is apparently exactly what happened). I told her I wasn't happy about it, and though she said she was sorry, I more than suspect that she would and will do it again with a few drinks in her. The sad thing is I really liked her. I have known her a couple of years now and I thought we had a strong connection. But this is a betrayal.

So now I am left with a scenario where I either ditch this friend completely (as she clearly can't be trusted), or continue to see her knowing full well she will likely continue to break my trust (she also admitted that she has told other people in a similar way). So I have no idea what the best move here is. I am currently weighing up what her friendship actually means to me, because it clearly doesn't seem to mean that much to her if she can't respect my wish to not be outed as a source of drunken entertainment.

I'm not really asking for advice here, merely venting... but you are of course free to voice your opinion.

Thanks

Are you a man that has transferred to a woman or vice versa ? I’m not sure from your name

JackTaylorFan

Muscles Schultz wrote: »

Are you a man that has transferred to a woman or vice versa ? I’m not sure from your name

I don't see how that is even relevant, to be honest. And your wording is, well, terrible. I was never anything but a woman.

Muscles Schultz

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I don't see how that is even relevant, to be honest. And your wording is, well, terrible. I was never anything but a woman.

But you’re trans? So your transferred from one to the other I would have thought. Anyway if you won’t be clear that’s your business

Annasopra

Muscles Schultz wrote: »

But you’re trans? So your transferred from one to the other I would have thought. Anyway if you won’t be clear that’s your business

No. Trans people dont "transfer"

Thats not the correct terminology to use.

If you were going to ask a question of a trans person what their gender identity is here are some more polite/appropriate ways to ask

"What is your gender identity"
"What are your preferred pronouns"


And heres a few articles about polite questioning!

https://transequality.org/issues/resources/questionable-questions-about-transgender-identity


https://www.healthline.com/health/how-to-be-human-language-around-transgender

JackTaylorFan

Muscles Schultz wrote: »

But you’re trans? So your transferred from one to the other I would have thought. Anyway if you won’t be clear that’s your business

I was being very clear. My apologies if that comes across as abrasive. As Joey alluded to, I didn't suddenly decide to "transfer" over. My gender has been a part of me since I can remember. I was never a man; I was assigned (erroneously) male at birth. I did find the question you asked irrelevant to the particular scenario. For whether I am a trans man or trans woman, the issue is more to do with being outed as trans in general. I don't believe it really matters which way, she would have blabbed either way in my opinion. So, the issue here is, that I can't trust nor confide in my friend anymore and I am struggling with how or if I should keep her in my life.


Also...

Assigned male or female at birth is far more appropriate terminology - "Assigned" being the operative word as it is a wrongly made assumption by those with old-fashioned ideas of what gender identity is, that is then placed upon the child who may or may not conform to that expectation.

JackTaylorFan

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

"What is your gender identity"
"What are your preferred pronouns"

I must be honest, because on a personal level, if someone asked me these questions, I would be offended. Total cringe.

But I know in some cases, non-binary for instance, these questions would be more appropriate.

Muscles Schultz

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. Trans people dont "transfer"

Thats not the correct terminology to use.

If you were going to ask a question of a trans person what their gender identity is here are some more polite/appropriate ways to ask

"What is your gender identity"
"What are your preferred pronouns"


And heres a few articles about polite questioning!

https://transequality.org/issues/resources/questionable-questions-about-transgender-identity


https://www.healthline.com/health/how-to-be-human-language-around-transgender

Well these questions you are suggesting also seem offensive per the OP so you should withdraw this advice.

JackTaylorFan

Muscles Schultz wrote: »

Well these questions you are suggesting also seem offensive per the OP so you should withdraw this advice.

When applied to me, yes, very much so - but that's a personal thing. There are others who appreciate that kind of question.

Annasopra

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I must be honest, because on a personal level, if someone asked me these questions, I would be offended. Total cringe.

But I know in some cases, non-binary for instance, these questions would be more appropriate.

Fair enough. I withdraw it. My advice is there are lots of on articles on polite questioning of trans people and I suggest reading them. Asking "are you a man who trasnferrred to a woman doesnt make sense" A people transfer B If that person is male to female trans the question opens with "are you a man..."

JackTaylorFan

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Asking "are you a man who trasnferrred to a woman doesnt make sense"

It smacks of a certain type of ignorance, to be honest. And straight away, would put me on the defensive - not likely to engage in a meaningful or productive discussion with anyone with this level of understanding.

Big Bag of Chips

Muscles Schultz, you posted 3 times and still haven't offered anything by way of advice, or opinion to the OP.

Jack, how good a friend is this person otherwise? If she is generally OK, and you can depend on her to be there then maybe don't cut her out completely. I understand your upset, but you need to think is she doing this out of badness and just for a bit of gossip. Or is she just bringing up in conversation about her friend, who she cares about and who she is proud of.

She might be a little clueless as to how this information being out in public affects you, but there's a very good chance many of your friends would similarly struggle. As you are only too aware, awareness and understanding of trans issues is not something that people readily get. She can't untell the people she has told. But maybe by talking to her about the struggles you face on a daily basis will help her to understand why you are so protective of the information and why you find it so difficult to tell people, her included.

I'm guessing you are her only trans friend, so this is a completely new situation for her. As friends we do tend to talk about our friends in conversation with others. I think you need to figure out if she's a good friend who didn't understand how you might feel, or if she's a bad friend who likes to use you as a point of gossip.

I tend to try see the good in people, so I'd be inclined to lean towards the former.

Muscles Schultz

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Muscles Schultz, you posted 3 times and still haven't offered anything by way of advice, or opinion to the OP.

Jack, how good a friend is this person otherwise? If she is generally OK, and you can depend on her to be there then maybe don't cut her out completely. I understand your upset, but you need to think is she doing this out of badness and just for a bit of gossip. Or is she just bringing up in conversation about her friend, who she cares about and who she is proud of.

She might be a little clueless as to how this information being out in public affects you, but there's a very good chance many of your friends would similarly struggle. As you are only too aware, awareness and understanding of trans issues is not something that people readily get. She can't untell the people she has told. But maybe by talking to her about the struggles you face on a daily basis will help her to understand why you are so protective of the information and why you find it so difficult to tell people, her included.

I'm guessing you are her only trans friend, so this is a completely new situation for her. As friends we do tend to talk about our friends in conversation with others. I think you need to figure out if she's a good friend who didn't understand how you might feel, or if she's a bad friend who likes to use you as a point of gossip.

I tend to try see the good in people, so I'd be inclined to lean towards the former.

I appear to be out of my depth here and decided not to comment for fear of offending. I’m not sure the point of your remark to me?

Big Bag of Chips

Well I thought from your original question to the OP, you must have thought it was relevant to the situation and were going to offer advice based on whether or not the OP was a man or a woman.

But it seems you had no advice or opinion to offer either way, so I'm still unsure as to why you asked the question. Was it relevant, or were you just being nosey?

Muscles Schultz

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Well I thought from your original question to the OP, you must have thought it was relevant to the situation and were going to offer advice based on whether or not the OP was a man or a woman.

But it seems you had no advice or opinion to offer either way, so I'm still unsure as to why you asked the question. Was it relevant, or were you just being nosey?

I did have an opinion but it was predicated on the question I had. Given levels of hostility (yours included) I decided to keep my council. Is that acceptable to you ?

Big Bag of Chips

I don't see where anyone was being hostile.
You asked a question. The error of your phrasing was explained to you. I'm sure the members of this forum can attest to the misunderstanding that surrounds trans issues, and people in general will try explain the situation to people who genuinely want to understand. It's an issue that affects a very small number of people, so it's reasonable that a very large number of people will have no understanding or experience of the issues faced. That is why in this forum people who are genuinely interested in understanding problems and issues faced will be answered genuinely. Which I believe you were.

It's just your question seemed irrelevant to the actual issue (I don't know why whether the OP is male or female would have any bearing on the advice being offered on how to handle the situation with their friend).

Muscles Schultz

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I don't see where anyone was being hostile.
You asked a question. The error of your phrasing was explained to you. I'm sure the members of this forum can attest to the misunderstanding that surrounds trans issues, and people in general will try explain the situation to people who genuinely want to understand. It's an issue that affects a very small number of people, so it's reasonable that a very large number of people will have no understanding or experience of the issues faced. That is why in this forum people who are genuinely interested in understanding problems and issues faced will be answered genuinely. Which I believe you were.

It's just your question seemed irrelevant to the actual issue (I don't know why whether the OP is male or female would have any bearing on the advice being offered on how to handle the situation with their friend).

It would to the point of a male or female being treated differently with a group of girls.

Big Bag of Chips

I'm still not sure what youre point is.

Are you saying a group of grown woman are likely to be bitchy and standoff ish/ignore another woman in their group, and be more interested in interacting with a man? Or the other way round? I think you are being very unfair to generalise a whole group by implying women will all react the same towards a male or female in their group.

I don't think it's relevant anyway. The OP's issue is with her friend, and how now to deal with that. Not with the group.

Muscles Schultz

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I'm still not sure what youre point is.

Are you saying a group of grown woman are likely to be bitchy and standoff ish/ignore another woman in their group, and be more interested in interacting with a man? Or the other way round? I think you are being very unfair to generalise a whole group by implying women will all react the same towards a male or female in their group.

I don't think it's relevant anyway. The OP's issue is with her friend, and how now to deal with that. Not with the group.

That may or may not be my point however the level of thought policing in this thread is making me uncomfortable so I will ask you to leave it at that.

love_love

JackTaylorFan, I agree with Big Bag of Chips. I have several trans friends that I have known through various stages of their transition (and personal journey), and sometimes in conversation it has been relevant to tell someone (who doesn't know/has never met my friend) that they are trans. It may also be the case where I am introducing a trans friend to some of my other friends and, in order to ensure they are not misgendered, I have advised the other friends what their pronouns are. This might not be the situation in your case, but it might be.

JackTaylorFan

love_love wrote: »

This might not be the situation in your case, but it might be.

Yeah, it's not. And she knows it's not.

JackTaylorFan

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Jack, how good a friend is this person otherwise? If she is generally OK, and you can depend on her to be there then maybe don't cut her out completely. I understand your upset, but you need to think is she doing this out of badness and just for a bit of gossip. Or is she just bringing up in conversation about her friend, who she cares about and who she is proud of.

She might be a little clueless as to how this information being out in public affects you, but there's a very good chance many of your friends would similarly struggle. As you are only too aware, awareness and understanding of trans issues is not something that people readily get. She can't untell the people she has told. But maybe by talking to her about the struggles you face on a daily basis will help her to understand why you are so protective of the information and why you find it so difficult to tell people, her included.

I'm guessing you are her only trans friend, so this is a completely new situation for her. As friends we do tend to talk about our friends in conversation with others. I think you need to figure out if she's a good friend who didn't understand how you might feel, or if she's a bad friend who likes to use you as a point of gossip.

I tend to try see the good in people, so I'd be inclined to lean towards the former.

To answer the first part of the question, I think I gravely overestimated the level of our friendship. We are now in a situation, where I see much more of her with her other friends than I would like to, and to be honest, it's a bit disappointing how her behaviour changes. I have known her a few years, and it is only recently I have seen this other side of her which seems to come out around, curiously enough, this same group. The people she basically labelled me as the "trans person" to.

To the second point, she certainly isn't clueless about how it affects me. But she is careless, irresponsible and can act in a very immature manner, especially when drinking - which she does way too much of late. I am also coming to the conclusion - which I have suspected since I first found out - she did it purely to have something to talk about (gossip).

As for other friends, I have told a number of people I consider close friends who had not got the first clue about trans issues bar what they had learnt from me. And it is fair to say they understood how important it was not to "out" me. They have all recognised how hard it was for me to open up to them about it - and not one of them has treated my story so nonchalantly as to pass it around during a piss-up. So, for me, there is no justification for it; for anyone taking that power away from me. It should be my choice of whom and how I tell.

And I understand some of you are probably thinking that sometimes it's obvious - and it just helps to let people know beforehand. Well, okay, even if your friends don't "pass" and were okay with that, even if you asked for their permission beforehand - personally, I would be hurt, offended and quite frankly a little angry with any friend who reduced my whole identity to this one thing before I was even had a chance to introduce myself.

Because if that's all you are to them - the "trans friend" - if that's what they reduce you to when you're not around, it's kinda not worth it.

suicide_circus

was her "heart in the right place" when she told them, however misguidedly?

was she just carelessly gossiping at your expense or did she (maybe naively) think she was saving you from some future embarrassment or faux pas at the hands of this other group of people?

love_love

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

And I understand some of you are probably thinking that sometimes it's obvious - and it just helps to let people know beforehand. Well, okay, even if your friends don't "pass" and were okay with that, even if you asked for their permission beforehand - personally, I would be hurt, offended and quite frankly a little angry with any friend who reduced my whole identity to this one thing before I was even had a chance to introduce myself.

Because if that's all you are to them - the "trans friend" - if that's what they reduce you to when you're not around, it's kinda not worth it.

I think it's interesting and a shame that you see people being aware of your trans identity as "reducing" you to something. My partner sometimes brings up my queer identity in conversation with others, and that's not reducing me to anything - it's a part of me, similarly to how someone might be vegetarian. Obviously, there will be individuals who feel that one aspect of someone's identity defines them, but that should not be your attitude towards yourself. (And, obviously x 2, being outed as trans without your permission can be a risk to your safety, so while I'm comparing it to my own queer identity or being vegetarian, I understand that they are not on the same level.)

I'm completely on the same page as you re: being outed without your permission - that is no-one else's decision to make. I understand where your friend is coming from re: not knowing that you would ever meet this group of friends, but I also understand your perspective of being uncomfortable that people know your business without your consent.

JackTaylorFan

suicide_circus wrote: »

was her "heart in the right place" when she told them, however misguidedly?

was she just carelessly gossiping at your expense or did she (maybe naively) think she was saving you from some future embarrassment or faux pas at the hands of this other group of people?

Nope, purely it was a case of her naively gossiping as far as I can gather. And as it transpires, I have just found out she has done it before as well.

As for saving me from any embarrassment from this group in future (whatever you might mean by that): yeah, no, she has pretty well made sure I feel embarrassed already - by outing me.

JackTaylorFan

love_love wrote: »

I think it's interesting and a shame that you see people being aware of your trans identity as "reducing" you to something. My partner sometimes brings up my queer identity in conversation with others, and that's not reducing me to anything...

Yeah, no, it's not a shame. I am not a public spokesperson for the trans community. I don't get paid a **** ton of money by a questionable organistaion to speak on such matters. So, although I might care about trans rights and support trans medical care, and speak on forums anonymously about it from time-to-time - with a hope of maybe educating a few people - I shouldn't have to expose myself to the **** transpeople get on a daily basis. If it can be avoided, and for me, it can (exceptions being family and the area where I grew up) why shouldn't I be allowed that level of privacy?

I am not proud of my trans identity. It's a part of me, yes. But quite frankly, I ****ing hate it, and I don't want to be labelled as the "transperson", which, I have no doubt, is how these people who never got a chance to know me prior to knowing the label attached think of me.

But, yeah... all power to you if you want to embrace your queerness, that's wonderful. Just don't try shame me for not being so enthusiastic about something that gets you nothing but **** from society, because I would never do it to you.

love_love wrote: »

I'm completely on the same page as you re: being outed without your permission - that is no-one else's decision to make. I understand where your friend is coming from re: not knowing that you would ever meet this group of friends, but I also understand your perspective of being uncomfortable that people know your business without your consent.

At least we can agree on this caveat

love_love

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I am not proud of my trans identity. It's a part of me, yes. But quite frankly, I ****ing hate it, and I don't want to be labelled as the "transperson", which, I have no doubt, is how these people who never got a chance to know me prior to knowing the label attached think of me.

How upset you are with your friend is put into so much more context with this bit of info. If it's not something you speak on in your day to day life, and not something you're forced to speak on unless you choose to disclose that part of yourself, it must have felt really crap to have something so intimate revealed about you to strangers. My friends are very public with their identities, so I was a bit blinkered.

JackTaylorFan

love_love wrote: »

it must have felt really crap to have something so intimate revealed about you to strangers.

Yeah, pretty much.

And now, as I am back in college, I find myself in a situation where I have to see these people on an almost daily basis and wonder how many of their mates they've told - it just makes me want to quit.

EdgeCase

Unfortunately there's a percentage of the population who have no filter and just blab absolutely everything. Usually it's not intended to be hurtful, rather they just have no concept of privacy or where boundaries are and just operate like an open book themselves or they run their mouths when they're in chatty mode.

However, you also get people who are just gossips and have to keep telling entertaining facts about people and blurt out stuff like that in the middle of conversations. Again, you'll find they don't intend to do any harm, but they just can't help blabbering on.

It's annoying, but you just eventually learn to identify that there are people who you can't trust with confidential information and others you could trust with anything. I don't think it necessarily makes them 'bad people' rather they're just complete blabber-mouths.