Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Anthracite

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The backstop is the WTO.

The UK can unilaterally allow EU planes to land and EU truck drivers to arrive.

There'll be more paperwork and tariffs until the micro deals are done. One huge political decision is how much if any of the cost will be absorbed by the UK government.



Irish citizens have an advantage here thanks to travel rights recognised by all sides. Be interesting to see how many UK transport firms place ads here.



A cold storage firm says it has run out of room because the food industry is stockpiling in the run-up to Brexit.

they're concerned about flour, wow, that stuff is cheap and available worldwide. And can easily be made from grain that can be stored for years.

I wonder how much of the 'growth' in the UK economy over the last year is people making expensive provisions for Brexit like this? i.e. capital which could have been spent on something productive is being diverted into infrastructure which would otherwise be unnecessary and adds nothing to growth in future.

Sam Russell

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes. On a weekend marking the memorial ceremonies of the end of WW1 it is very troubling when we look around to who we would have considered strong players on the world stage.

The examples of the political sphere in both the UK and America over the last 2 years is worrying when they played such a part in defending our way of life in recent times.

Given the day that is in it, it would make sense for all parties to put in the forefront of their minds just what the founding of the EU was all about.

In 1945, there was devastation in Europe, with people starving, and roads filled with destitute hoards shuffling along carrying or pushing in prams their world possessions, dragging tiny children. The pictures would draw tears from a stone.

Berlin was subject to a blockade such that the 'allies' had to opperate an airlift of huge logistical demands, where aircraft were flying in more frequently that a busy train service with arrivals every 90 seconds.

The founders of the EU wanted to provide a deep economic environment within Europe, between previous enemies, such that war would be unthinkable. In that they have basically succeeded.

Brexit flies in the face of this. I think because the Brexiteers are not familiar with the graveyards of Northern France, or Flanders. They are not familiar with Ypres where there is a daily commemoration of the war dead, and the Last Post is played every day of the year.

I think a trip by ardent Brexiteers to these hundreds of graveyards, all manicured and well kept, with row upon row of white gravestones, each bearing the name of the soldier buried there (where the name is known). If you pass such a graveyard every day, you could not forget those that died so needlessly. How could you?

We know how important a non-existent border is fir NI, so that those who look South see no border, and those that look East see no border.

How blinkered are the Brexiteers that cannot see these things?

Anthracite

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think a trip by ardent Brexiteers to these hundreds of graveyards, all manicured and well kept, with row upon row of white gravestones, each bearing the name of the soldier buried there (where the name is known). If you pass such a graveyard every day, you could not forget those that died so needlessly. How could you?

We know how important a non-existent border is fir NI, so that those who look South see no border, and those that look East see no border.

How blinkered are the Brexiteers that cannot see these things?

They would look at those graves as evidence of how great the UK is, be overwhelmed with national pride, and underline their certitude that they must never be anything other than completely independent of others.

Strazdas

Sam Russell wrote: »

Given the day that is in it, it would make sense for all parties to put in the forefront of their minds just what the founding of the EU was all about.

In 1945, there was devastation in Europe, with people starving, and roads filled with destitute hoards shuffling along carrying or pushing in prams their world possessions, dragging tiny children. The pictures would draw tears from a stone.

Berlin was subject to a blockade such that the 'allies' had to opperate an airlift of huge logistical demands, where aircraft were flying in more frequently that a busy train service with arrivals every 90 seconds.

The founders of the EU wanted to provide a deep economic environment within Europe, between previous enemies, such that war would be unthinkable. In that they have basically succeeded.

Brexit flies in the face of this. I think because the Brexiteers are not familiar with the graveyards of Northern France, or Flanders. They are not familiar with Ypres where there is a daily commemoration of the war dead, and the Last Post is played every day of the year.

I think a trip by ardent Brexiteers to these hundreds of graveyards, all manicured and well kept, with row upon row of white gravestones, each bearing the name of the soldier buried there (where the name is known). If you pass such a graveyard every day, you could not forget those that died so needlessly. How could you?

We know how important a non-existent border is fir NI, so that those who look South see no border, and those that look East see no border.

How blinkered are the Brexiteers that cannot see these things?

They don't like economic or political unions and want to see a Europe of hard borders and standalone nation states.

I suspect they simply cannot stand the idea of a partnership of European 'equals'. To their mind, the UK is not the equal of any country in Europe, not even France and Germany and is in fact superior to all of them (though they won't admit this latter point in public).

I know that sounds crazy but that's the way they think and it's what drove them to Brexit.

RobMc59

Anthracite wrote: »

They would look at those graves as evidence of how great the UK is, be overwhelmed with national pride, and underline their certitude that they must never be anything other than completely independent of others.

It's not just the UK remembering the fallen today-all the nations involved are showing their respect for their own today-nothing wrong with that.

Sam Russell

Anthracite wrote: »

They would look at those graves as evidence of how great the UK is, be overwhelmed with national pride, and underline their certitude that they must never be anything other than completely independent of others.

I am afraid you might be right.

Anthracite

RobMc59 wrote: »

It's not just the UK remembering the fallen today-all the nations involved are showing their respect for their own today-nothing wrong with that.

Well there kind of is - don't people in the UK publicly claim that the poppy commemorates everyone?

Akrasia

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

No they aren't independent (in Akrasias post/suggestion #3367), as the second vote only becomes relevant/counted in the event that the first ballot is rejected.
In order to get your first choice counted (whether that's Remain or Crash Out) you have to initially reject your likely second preference of 'accept deal'.

Thats the opposite of independent.

Yeah, they'd be linked

I can see where the Hobsons choice thing comes in where, as you said the order of preference could be 1. Remain, 2. accept May's deal. 3 Crash out but this is more obvious because the two questions are asked on the same ballot card

Imagine instead two seperate referendums, the first on whether or not to accept May's deal. Yes or no. If that referendum is rejected, having another referendum a week later asking whether or not to withdraw article 50
It's the exact same choice, only temporally separated

People have to judge risk with their ballots all the time in the winner takes all form of voting they have in the UK. You might prefer a lib dem MP in your area, but you hate the Tories more than you like the Lib Dems, so you might vote Labour just to keep the Tory out of power.

If there is a vote to accept Mays deal, people would have to choose based on the possibility that if they reject the deal, they may be paving the way for a crash out.

Really the ballot should have the choice first of whether to withdraw article 50 or not, and then if that's rejected, later on a choice between Mays Deal and a Crash out, but I don't think that is politically possible

RobMc59

Anthracite wrote: »

Well there kind of is - don't people in the UK publicly claim that the poppy commemorates everyone?

Yes-It remembers all the fallen soldiers regardless of nation.

Professor Moriarty

Sam Russell wrote: »

Given the day that is in it, it would make sense for all parties to put in the forefront of their minds just what the founding of the EU was all about.

In 1945, there was devastation in Europe, with people starving, and roads filled with destitute hoards shuffling along carrying or pushing in prams their world possessions, dragging tiny children. The pictures would draw tears from a stone.

Berlin was subject to a blockade such that the 'allies' had to opperate an airlift of huge logistical demands, where aircraft were flying in more frequently that a busy train service with arrivals every 90 seconds.

The founders of the EU wanted to provide a deep economic environment within Europe, between previous enemies, such that war would be unthinkable. In that they have basically succeeded.

Brexit flies in the face of this. I think because the Brexiteers are not familiar with the graveyards of Northern France, or Flanders. They are not familiar with Ypres where there is a daily commemoration of the war dead, and the Last Post is played every day of the year.

I think a trip by ardent Brexiteers to these hundreds of graveyards, all manicured and well kept, with row upon row of white gravestones, each bearing the name of the soldier buried there (where the name is known). If you pass such a graveyard every day, you could not forget those that died so needlessly. How could you?

We know how important a non-existent border is fir NI, so that those who look South see no border, and those that look East see no border.

How blinkered are the Brexiteers that cannot see these things?

The majority of leading Brexiteers are members of a cosseted elite. The poppy on their lapel symbolises other families' sacrifices. Siegfried Sassoon's poem Base Details springs to mind.

charlie14

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes. On a weekend marking the memorial ceremonies of the end of WW1 it is very troubling when we look around to who we would have considered strong players on the world stage.

The examples of the political sphere in both the UK and America over the last 2 years is worrying when they played such a part in defending our way of life in recent times.

The examples of the political sphere in both the UK and America have their roots going back more than 2 years imo.

UKIP and the Tea Party are examples of where lunatic fringes of political parties can lead by heads being buried in sand so as not to rock the boat giving them oxygen.
Give any fire enough oxygen and you run the very real risk that it will devour you.

flatty

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

None of those will get over 50%
So most of the voters will be dissatisfied



Also needs clarification on exactly what May's deal is.


There are some calling for another option.

4. Resume negotiations

Completely missing the points that Article 50 only allows an extension if everyone agrees, and why would the EU even consider this until the deal with the UK is almost complete. And it not nearly complete as the UK still doesn't look like it can past it's own red lines.

I think that the majority will shrug and get on with life as best they can. There will be a vocal minority who scream and stamp their feet whatever happens.

Anthracite

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yes-It remembers all the fallen soldiers regardless of nation.

So just thinking of the soldiers from your own nation rather defeats the purpose, I would suggest.

Tell me how

charlie14 wrote: »

The examples of the political sphere in both the UK and America have their roots going back more than 2 years imo.

UKIP and the Tea Party are examples of where lunatic fringes of political parties can lead by heads being buried in sand so as not to rock the boat giving them oxygen.
Give any fire enough oxygen and you run the very real risk that it will devour you.

Agree but you have to allow enough space for the extremists to put their ideas out there so they can be judged objectively.

We are potentially on the cusp of our GOP/Brexit turmoil with Peter Casey.
Shutting him down entirely as some on the outer left want to do is only ensuring that those on the outer right rally to his cause.

Brexit has shown just how open to being manipulated a population can be when the establishment don't acknowledge the risk and deal with it appropriately but openly.

10000maniacs

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The majority of leading Brexiteers are members of a cosseted elite. The poppy on their lapel symbolises other families' sacrifices. Siegfried Sassoon's poem Base Details springs to mind.

Yeah true. Incidentally, the Brothers Johnson are two sides of the same coin. Both equally unconcerned about the big picture but about what can they do to get people talking about them in tomorrows headlines.
Their father is the same, He was on Sky News two weeks ago and his advice on the Irish situation was "If the Irish want to shoot each other they will shoot each other whether there is a hard border or not". A toxic and dangerous family IMO.

RobMc59

Anthracite wrote: »

So just thinking of the soldiers from your own nation rather defeats the purpose, I would suggest.

Who does that?-certainly not the UK.As I said ALL nations soldiers are remembered by mainly Britain,France,Germany and the US.

Tell me how

10000maniacs wrote: »

Yeah true. Incidentally, the Brothers Johnson are two sides of the same coin. Both equally unconcerned about the big picture but about what can they do to get people talking about them in tomorrows headlines.
Their father is the same, He was on Sky News two weeks ago and his advice on the Irish situation was "If the Irish want to shoot each other they will shoot each other whether there is a hard border or not". A toxic and dangerous family IMO.

I'm not sure in the case of Jo that he was looking for headlines. He spoke about another referendum, not that May had failed and they needed a strong leader i.e. my brother.

Question Time on BBC is an interesting insight in to the national psyche in relation to Brexit. The majority seem to think it should happen for 2 reasons; they voted to leave, or they think the democratic vote must be upheld.

I know the BBC is accused of being partisan in this matter but I don't see how they could select pro-Brexit people to the audience so frequently unless they do make up this significant portion of the person on the street.

Strazdas

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm not sure in the case of Jo that he was looking for headlines. He spoke about another referendum, not that May had failed and they needed a strong leader i.e. my brother.

Question Time on BBC is an interesting insight in to the national psyche in relation to Brexit. The majority seem to think it should happen for 2 reasons; they voted to leave, or they think the democratic vote must be upheld.

I know the BBC is accused of being partisan in this matter but I don't see how they could select pro-Brexit people to the audience so frequently unless they do make up this significant portion of the person on the street.

I would say a good 40-45% of the British population are Brexiteers.

It's an interesting one. They have been brainwashed into hating the EU by their politicians and media and cannot abandon the ideology, not even when Brexit is falling to pieces in front of their eyes and being exposed as a con job.

charlie14

Tell me how wrote: »

Agree but you have to allow enough space for the extremists to put their ideas out there so they can be judged objectively.

We are potentially on the cusp of our GOP/Brexit turmoil with Peter Casey.
Shutting him down entirely as some on the outer left want to do is only ensuring that those on the outer right rally to his cause.

Brexit has shown just how open to being manipulated a population can be when the establishment don't acknowledge the risk and deal with it appropriately but openly.

Totally agree and one of the major problem is those that like to look upon themselves as the liberal intelligentsia are neither particularly liberal or intelligent.
The likes of Casey, Trump and Farage are very good at identifying issues that has been shut down by these so called liberals under the guise of political correctness. This has lead to mainstream politician terrified to touch them due to the tirade of caveman abuse they would be subjected to by this cohort even while knowing they are issues with many of their constituents.
Shutting down such discussion only gives these people oxygen rather than debating with them on these issues, and leaves them looking like abused underdogs with even more sympathy from an electorate for their further utterances.

10000maniacs

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm not sure in the case of Jo that he was looking for headlines. He spoke about another referendum, not that May had failed and they needed a strong leader i.e. my brother.

Yeah but you have to ask (well I do anyway) what was the real motivation behind his resignation?
The other end of a two pronged attack by the Brothers to remove Theresa May?
It's all about power and leadership with the brothers.
I mean Boris tossed a coin to choose which side he was on in the referendum.
It's just a big game of soldiers with Boris.
They don't care about the consequences and have the family funds to weather any storm and be flush and dandy in any scenario.

RobMc59

10000maniacs wrote: »

Yeah but you have to ask (well I do anyway) what was the real motivation behind his resignation?
The other end of a two pronged attack by the Brothers to remove Theresa May?
It's all about power and leadership with the brothers.
I mean Boris tossed a coin to choose which side he was on in the referendum.
It's just a big game of soldiers with Boris.
They don't care about the consequences and have the family funds to weather any storm and be flush and dandy in any scenario.

Let's see...Jo resigns as he believes that Brexit is a disaster and urges people to push for a 2nd referendum and still gets criticism-would it really hurt to say-"you know what-good on him-lets hope more MPs do the same".But that would be praise and that is a no-no...

10000maniacs

RobMc59 wrote: »

Let's see...Jo resigns as he believes that Brexit is a disaster and urges people to push for a 2nd referendum and still gets criticism-would it really hurt to say-"you know what-good on him-lets hope more MPs do the same".But that would be praise and that is a no-no...

I would love to see a second referendum, and If Jo Johnson resigning helps trigger that, it is good in itself, so lets look to how this one pans out.

charlie14

10000maniacs wrote: »

Yeah but you have to ask (well I do anyway) what was the real motivation behind his resignation?
The other end of a two pronged attack by the Brothers to remove Theresa May?
It's all about power and leadership with the brothers.
I mean Boris tossed a coin to choose which side he was on in the referendum.
It's just a big game of soldiers with Boris.
They don't care about the consequences and have the family funds to weather any storm and be flush and dandy in any scenario.

To me Jo Johnston looks like a lad down the back of the bus beside the emergency exit sitting on his hands watching the rest of the passengers fighting over the steering wheel. Sits there quietly doing nothing watching the bus heading for the cliff other than grabbing the red handle at the last minute.

Enzokk

Sam Russell wrote: »

Given the day that is in it, it would make sense for all parties to put in the forefront of their minds just what the founding of the EU was all about.

In 1945, there was devastation in Europe, with people starving, and roads filled with destitute hoards shuffling along carrying or pushing in prams their world possessions, dragging tiny children. The pictures would draw tears from a stone.

Berlin was subject to a blockade such that the 'allies' had to opperate an airlift of huge logistical demands, where aircraft were flying in more frequently that a busy train service with arrivals every 90 seconds.

The founders of the EU wanted to provide a deep economic environment within Europe, between previous enemies, such that war would be unthinkable. In that they have basically succeeded.

Brexit flies in the face of this. I think because the Brexiteers are not familiar with the graveyards of Northern France, or Flanders. They are not familiar with Ypres where there is a daily commemoration of the war dead, and the Last Post is played every day of the year.

I think a trip by ardent Brexiteers to these hundreds of graveyards, all manicured and well kept, with row upon row of white gravestones, each bearing the name of the soldier buried there (where the name is known). If you pass such a graveyard every day, you could not forget those that died so needlessly. How could you?

We know how important a non-existent border is fir NI, so that those who look South see no border, and those that look East see no border.

How blinkered are the Brexiteers that cannot see these things?

As ridiculous as this is to type I feel a lot of people in the UK will think, England 2 - Germany 0 when they think and see the graves of the soldiers and think of both wars.

trellheim

Right I predict the next couple of days will be fairly high-drama stuff. Its fairly stark right now.

Unless someone gives in, we are doing the Hard Brexit and a walled-off six counties on March 30 2019

I remind everyone there is still NO DEAL and the UK is currently on course to crash out without one on Brexit day.

Beechwoodspark

trellheim wrote: »

Right I predict the next couple of days will be fairly high-drama stuff. Its fairly stark right now.

Unless someone gives in, we are doing the Hard Brexit and a walled-off six counties on March 30 2019

I remind everyone there is still NO DEAL and the UK is currently on course to crash out without one on Brexit day.

“Walled off six counties”?

CelticRambler

Sam Russell wrote: »

Given the day that is in it, it would make sense for all parties to put in the forefront of their minds just what the founding of the EU was all about.
...
I think a trip by ardent Brexiteers to these hundreds of graveyards, all manicured and well kept, with row upon row of white gravestones, each bearing the name of the soldier buried there (where the name is known). If you pass such a graveyard every day, you could not forget those that died so needlessly. How could you?

Anthracite wrote: »

They would look at those graves as evidence of how great the UK is, be overwhelmed with national pride, and underline their certitude that they must never be anything other than completely independent of others.

RobMc59 wrote: »

It's not just the UK remembering the fallen today-all the nations involved are showing their respect for their own today-nothing wrong with that.

No, nothing wrong with that. Funny, though, how so many world leaders - even the rain-shy Trump - decided to mark the event together. But not Theresa. Britain doing its own thing on its own island again.

fly_agaric

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

“Walled off six counties”?

Sounds overly dramatic in the short term, but if UK continues down the road the Conservatives seem to be explicitly setting out on (ultra low tax and minimal regulation renegade operating outside the Single Market, customs union etc) it will possibly come down to that. Other option IMO in that scenario is that Ireland will be forced out of EU itself eventually.

Mr.Wemmick

Strazdas wrote: »

I would say a good 40-45% of the British population are Brexiteers.

It's an interesting one. They have been brainwashed into hating the EU by their politicians and media and cannot abandon the ideology, not even when Brexit is falling to pieces in front of their eyes and being exposed as a con job.

The public have been told over and over since the late 00s that the EU is to blame for austerity. Tories have implemented their policies on the sold belief, with backing of the media, that the country needs to tighten its belt.. so began the onward march under Cameron and Osborne - which continues on full throttle today under May - of dismantling services, the halt of training and recruiting within the police, fire, prisons, customs officers/staff, all NHS, children services, mental health care, SEN and general school support.. etc. etc.

What you have now is a fractured country being sold off and people, who are not stupid, saw it coming and wanted to believe the UK would have more more money for those vital services.. but it was all a lie. Not one Tory politician has ever owned up to the botch job of managing the UK. Brexit is a mere symptom of this long running farce.

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

No, nothing wrong with that. Funny, though, how so many world leaders - even the rain-shy Trump - decided to mark the event together. But not Theresa. Britain doing its own thing on its own island again.

You obviously didn't see TM and Macron yesterday....