Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Peregrinus

Muscles Schultz wrote: »

Justine Greening has propose a PR style vote

She has. But Capt'n Midnight's points are well made. The British are not used to preferential voting and have recently rejected it for parliamentary elections. Using it in another Brexit referendum would probably fuel Brexiteer arguments that this is all an undemocratic plot to bamboozle the simple but honest folk of Englandland, steal Brexit and frustrate that sturdy yeoman, Will O' The People.

Plus, a strong cohort of those who favour a second referendum are adamantly opposed to putting no-deal Brexit as an option on the ballot, on the grounds that, as parliamentarians, they have a duty to the country which is inconsistent with pretending that no-deal Brexit is something that anyone should ever contemplate for an instant. On this view, parliament should only offer in a referendum those options which parliament itself would consider tolerable.

Strazdas

RobMc59 wrote: »

Britain has a past-some of it good some of it bad-France,Germany and the US are all the same-you can either get over it or you can continue doing what you accuse British people of doing-wallowing in it...

Much of the commemorations are probably very sincere, especially from ordinary members of the public but there is a suspicion the events sometimes get hijacked by the right wing nationalists and jingoists every year who are more intent on pushing their brand of nationalism and patriotism than in commemorating anything.

McGiver

RobMc59 wrote: »

Britain has a past-some of it good some of it bad-France,Germany and the US are all the same-you can either get over it or you can continue doing what you accuse British people of doing-wallowing in it...

Germans for example teach proper history in their schools. They accepted, as a society, that certain periods in their history are very negative, they perceive them such, and are even ashamed of them. As a society they accept that anything like that must never be repeated. They are well aware of the dangers of nationalism, flag-waving and everything associated with that. They teach this at schools, the public discourse is set in this way and political sphere also reflects that. Certain narratives are not acceptable.

I don't think that this is the case with English education system, political class and media. No German media would ever generate articles hostile to other nations or perpetuating myths invoking feeling of superiority such as we see in the English press, no mainstream German politician would say anything vitriolic what we've been hearing from the (mostly) Tories, such discourse isn't acceptable in Germany.

Shortly, England have a) unresolved post-imperial syndrome and b) superiority complex, supported by its political class and media. It has obviously deep historical and geographical reasons. Overall as a society, where the political class, education system and media play crucial role, England have failed to address these issues, unlike Germans.

I don't know the situation in France, maybe someone else can comment.

EdgeCase

Strazdas wrote: »

Much of the commemorations are probably very sincere, especially from ordinary members of the public but there is a suspicion the events sometimes get hijacked by the right wing nationalists and jingoists every year who are more intent on pushing their brand of nationalism and patriotism than in commemorating anything.

It wouldn't be unusual as right wing and extreme nationalist movements often hijack symbols of national identity, including national flags. We've seen it in the UK with the Union Flag, in the states with various movements including Trump's MAGA mob trying to wrap themselves in the stars and stripes, it's similar with Marine Le Pen in France and you've even seen it in Ireland in the past with very hard-line aspects of republicanism briefly having some hold on some of our symbols, thankfully in that case there was a strong push back and the Irish tricolour is very definitely in mass ownership of the whole country for fun events and so on and never really seems to have slipped into being taken to mean any particular aspect of politics. Although that may not be the case "up north".

I'm sure the majority of those commemorations are very sincere but you will inevitably get some degree of grabbing of those symbols by far right nationalists, especially in an era of extreme jingoism like they're going through at the moment.

The way certian people are rounding on those who opt not to wear the poppy is an example of it. It's mob rule online thuggery.

Enzokk

Peregrinus wrote: »

She has. But Capt'n Midnight's points are well made. The British are not used to preferential voting and have recently rejected it for parliamentary elections. Using it in another Brexit referendum would probably fuel Brexiteer arguments that this is all an undemocratic plot to bamboozle the simple but honest folk of Englandland, steal Brexit and frustrate that sturdy yeoman, Will O' The People.

Plus, a strong cohort of those who favour a second referendum are adamantly opposed to putting no-deal Brexit as an option on the ballot, on the grounds that, as parliamentarians, they have a duty to the country which is inconsistent with pretending that no-deal Brexit is something that anyone should ever contemplate for an instant. On this view, parliament should only offer in a referendum those options which parliament itself would consider tolerable.

I was wondering how a second referendum will be done. The easiest would be just a yes or no to continue with Brexit. But if the result is no then it doesn't solve what Brexit they need to pursue. Would it be possible to have a second question? That way you are firstly not asking people to support no deal until a second question where other options will be offered as well.

As for Labour, over the weekend we had Emily Thornberry ruling out a second referendum and calling some of those that are actively campaigning for one as "undemocratic". Lets not forget that Labour is actually at the same time calling for a new general election right now even though people made their choice in 2017 and they should, according to her, accept the result and wait for 2022.

But this morning we have Keir Starmer contradicting all of this now again and so we have Labour also not providing any clarity to the people and just muddying the water. What a shame we have the caliber of politician in charge at the moment, they are just adding to the fraught situation we find ourselves in.

https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1061894372097253376

Hermy

WWI should be remembered along similar lines to the Holocaust.
It was a crime against humanity perpetrated by the leaders of the day against their own peoples.
Yesterday's commemorations amount to nothing more than a propaganda exercise by the MoD for the conflicts yet to come.

Mr.Wemmick

McGiver wrote: »

Germans for example teach proper history in their schools.

I don't think that this is the case with English education system, political class and media. No German media would ever generate articles hostile to other nations or perpetuating myths invoking feeling of superiority such as we see in the English press, no mainstream German politician would say anything vitriolic what we've been hearing from the (mostly) Tories, such discourse isn't acceptable in Germany.

Shortly, England have a) unresolved post-imperial syndrome and b) superiority complex, supported by its political class and media. It has obviously deep historical and geographical reasons. Overall as a society, where the political class, education system and media play crucial role, England have failed to address these issues, unlike Germans.

I don't know the situation in France, maybe someone else can comment.

Agreed.

The underbelly of Tory Britain is poison and has been for decades.. they lie, dismantle, destroy and whip up frenzy through the media and no one has ever, in my mind, successfully managed to stop their default lazy Thatcher neoliberal one size fits all. Labour get into power and try to put back the money the Tories have for years taken out of communities and infrastructure, but when Labour are in power, Tories cry at the overspend.. this political cyclic farce is devastating the country. Education being the fall guy, keep 'em ignorant and smothered in exams, don't modernise thinking, teaching or learning.

The media then either go all out or passively stand by like the ineffectual BBC. In pour the extreme right chest thumpers with it's everyone else fault and the tories are more than happy to allow it in order to shake off responsibility for Brexit and all domestic failures.

Case in point: often chuckle at the occasional daily fail story of all hail the wonderful Anna and Jim who have saved up over 10 years for a deposit on a two roomed shed.. they lived on grass and didn't breath for 2 hours a day. We could all learn from them.. bless 'em.

ArmaniJeanss

Enzokk wrote: »

I was wondering how a second referendum will be done. The easiest would be just a yes or no to continue with Brexit. But if the result is no then it doesn't solve what Brexit they need to pursue. Would it be possible to have a second question? That way you are firstly not asking people to support no deal until a second question where other options will be offered as well.

As for Labour, over the weekend we had Emily Thornberry ruling out a second referendum and calling some of those that are actively campaigning for one as "undemocratic". Lets not forget that Labour is actually at the same time calling for a new general election right now even though people made their choice in 2017 and they should, according to her, accept the result and wait for 2022.

But this morning we have Keir Starmer contradicting all of this now again and so we have Labour also not providing any clarity to the people and just muddying the water. What a shame we have the caliber of politician in charge at the moment, they are just adding to the fraught situation we find ourselves in.

https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1061894372097253376

Are you sure about the Emily Thornberry bit - I think she's always been on the 'second referendum' bandwagon and continues to be so.

prawnsambo

This is a long thread, so I've linked the Thread Reader App tweet to make it easier to follow. I think others may have done this already, but this is very up to date and includes stuff I haven't heard of.

For example Steris PLC with $2.6 billion revenue moving to Ireland

Enzokk

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Are you sure about the Emily Thornberry bit - I think she's always been on the 'second referendum' bandwagon and continues to be so.

Yeah, sorry about that part. She did call parts of the movement calling for a second referendum as undemocratic though, but she did contradict the leader in his assertion that the vote is done. That is now 2 of his Shadow Cabinet who has disagreed with his stance on the second referendum.

Hurrache

Lots of blue passport holders may become conflicted as to who they're going to fly with
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1061910513381269509
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1061912478127394817

Kermit.de.frog

German Foreign Minister saying SM integrity is non negotiable.

What that means is the NI situation must be 100% watertight and by extension, if no land border, checks must be firm between NI/UK to protect SM.

RobMc59

Hurrache wrote: »

Lots of blue passport holders may become conflicted as to who they're going to fly with
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1061910513381269509
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1061912478127394817

Guinness is owned by a British company-so what?-it doesn't make it any less irish..

LeinsterDub

RobMc59 wrote: »

Guinness is owned by a British company-so what?-it doesn't make it any less irish..

The ownership of Airlines is very important. They must be at least 50% European owned to take advantaged of European deals such as Open Skies

LuckyLloyd

As I always caution, try to ignore the low level to the minute reactions. The broad stroke concrete updates become clear in due course. It essentially looks like the last couple of weeks have involved:

- The EU offering a compromise on a UK wide Customs Union
- The EU offering a compromise on a 'backstop to backstop'
- The EU offering a potential compromise on review of any such backstop subject to ECJ sign off

The UK seems to be pushing for complex language around the second part *and* the third part to be absent of ECJ oversight. They may be pushing certain cakeism on the first part too. It looks to me like the EU have hardened around their recent concessions as their best offer. This is their flexibility and I think keen observers of the last 18 months would probably say they moved further than we thought.

The ball is now in the UK's court. My tip for following is to ignore the daily rumours of what is said in Cabinet, what ministers are going to resign, what the parliamentary arithmetic looks like. We're moving towards a definitive position from the UK. Either the above gets presented as the Deal option for Parliament or the UK essentially says they're preparing for No Deal. That is the only update that matters and it might definitively come in the next 10 days.

RobMc59

McGiver wrote: »

Germans for example teach proper history in their schools. They accepted, as a society, that certain periods in their history are very negative, they perceive them such, and are even ashamed of them. As a society they accept that anything like that must never be repeated. They are well aware of the dangers of nationalism, flag-waving and everything associated with that. They teach this at schools, the public discourse is set in this way and political sphere also reflects that. Certain narratives are not acceptable.

I don't think that this is the case with English education system, political class and media. No German media would ever generate articles hostile to other nations or perpetuating myths invoking feeling of superiority such as we see in the English press, no mainstream German politician would say anything vitriolic what we've been hearing from the (mostly) Tories, such discourse isn't acceptable in Germany.

Shortly, England have a) unresolved post-imperial syndrome and b) superiority complex, supported by its political class and media. It has obviously deep historical and geographical reasons. Overall as a society, where the political class, education system and media play crucial role, England have failed to address these issues, unlike Germans.

I don't know the situation in France, maybe someone else can comment.

Oh well,I suppose the haters are always going to hate-but look on the bright side-if Britain leaves theres all the fun of picking someone new-ĺets think...invaded Ireland hundreds of years ago,had an empire hundreds of years ago -the Scandinavians must be getting a bit worried!

Hurrache

RobMc59 wrote: »

Oh well,I suppose the haters are always going to hate

What's this, a school yard?

EdgeCase

I can't see the EU grounding Aer Lingus, Iberia as well as Level and Vueling over this. If they did I think there would be potentially huge political fallout in Spain and Ireland.

There's going to have to be a work around.

From what I gather the IAG Group can force the sale of shares owners by non EU nationals should their nationality prevent them from operating the business.

There's also probably some possibility of splitting the company into IAG and BA.

prawnsambo

EdgeCase wrote: »

I can't see the EU grounding Aer Lingus, Iberia as well as Level and Vueling over this. If they did I think there would be potentially huge political fallout in Spain and Ireland.

There's going to have to be a work around.

From what I gather the IAG Group can force the sale of shares owners by non EU nationals should their nationality prevent them from operating the business.

There's also probably some possibility of splitting the company into IAG and BA.

Ryanair have a similar problem. There are a lot of UK based shareholders. Michael O'Leary was saying that they'd have to make sure that they meet the ownership requirements before brexit day.

EdgeCase

In both cases they can force the sale of shares as it's a T&C of ownership. I would say Ryanair would be pretty ruthless too. I can't see them messing around.

The downside is it could cause a big share price sink temporarily.

LeinsterDub

EdgeCase wrote: »

In both cases they can force the sale of shares as it's a T&C of ownership. I would say Ryanair would be pretty ruthless too. I can't see them messing around.

The downside is it could cause a big share price sink temporarily.

They'd sink a lot more if their entire fleet was grounded .

EdgeCase

I wonder do any of these companiess have grounds to sue the UK for compensation? I mean basically they're having their share value destroyed by British government ineptitude.

prawnsambo

EdgeCase wrote: »

I wonder do any of these companiess have grounds to sue the UK for compensation? I mean basically they're having their share value destroyed by British government ineptitude.

There are mutterings that companies who shifted production to the UK could well have a case against the UK government for changing the terms of their agreements unilaterally.

I'm probably over-simplifying here, but there was an article some time ago which teased out the legal techincalities. Cannot for the life of me remember where though.

Kermit.de.frog

I wonder why no one brings up People Before Profit in this situation with the north.

The northern assembly had a vote on special status before the assembly collapsed that would have solved all these issues.

The two PBP numpty representatives there abstained, hence the vote was lost.

Had that passed none of this would be an issue now.

I'm a big supporter of political parties/groups in Ireland no matter how fringe or small being held to account for their decisions.

ambro25

McGiver wrote: »

I don't know the situation in France, maybe someone else can comment.

Essentially the same as the way you described the German curriculum.

Rather, a matter-of-factly approach to history, including colonial periods (and slavery and Algeria and Indochina etc), without triumphalism, nor passing over the Vichy side and time of things either (including the Velv d’Hiv episode). Revisionism is a criminal act punished by prison term in France, to this day. Rightly so IMHO.

For example, in relation to WW2, straight-up honesty about lack of preparation and foresight that eventually led to 1940 defeat, but also examination of rearguard actions that permitted both Dunkirk to succeed and sizeable volume of French forces to escape to the South + northern African colonies.

Same approach to the EU. Where it came from (ECSC, etc), institutions, bodies, law making, functioning, etc. It was -still is- taught with as much time and details as those of the Vth Republic.

That said, I’m talking about the cursus I went through in the 80s, as a datum. For balance/further context, for a long time after WW2 (well into 70s) the story of the Malgré-Nous was ignored from the curriculum. Because the post-war French government did little to repatriate the POWs from Russian camps (Tambov, mostly), under pressure from French communist movements at the time, and then just kept looking the other way.

ArmaniJeanss

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I wonder why no one brings up People Before Profit in this situation with the north.

The northern assembly had a vote on special status before the assembly collapsed that would have solved all these issues.

The two PBP numpty representatives there abstained, hence the vote was lost.

Had that passed none of this would be an issue now.

How would it have been solved the issues - Westminster has pretty much ignored the majority view in NI (the referendum result) so why would a vote in Stormont have changed things?
It would have been a useful debating point alright.

Haven't they also ignored similar votes in the Scottish parliament?

Kermit.de.frog

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

How would it have been solved the issues - Westminster has pretty much ignored the majority view in NI (the referendum result) so why would a vote in Stormont have changed things?
It would have been a useful debating point alright.

Haven't they also ignored similar votes in the Scottish parliament?

It would have been binding surely.

It would have given May cover and stopped the DUP rightly claiming as a stick that the assembly voted it down.

It would have been a big help is all i'm saying.

Water John

I think Starmer's outline of the timeline is quite probable. TM's deal rejected by HoC. New GE rejected by TM. What happens next? Does TM take instruction from HoC? Is there a leadership challenge? Where does the proposal for a 2nd Ref come from, HoC?

Charles Babbage

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I wonder why no one brings up People Before Profit in this situation with the north.

The northern assembly had a vote on special status before the assembly collapsed that would have solved all these issues.

The two PBP numpty representatives there abstained, hence the vote was lost.

Had that passed none of this would be an issue now.

The treatment of Scotland suggests that this might not have made much difference. However, the PBP acted against the interests of the people of Ireland, as they usually do.

Imreoir2

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It would have been binding surely.

It would have given May cover and stopped the DUP rightly claiming as a stick that the assembly voted it down.

It would have been a big help is all i'm saying.

Binding on what? I doubt the DUP would feel constrained by such a motion and nothing a devolved assembly does is binding on the Commons. It might have given May some political cover, but she would still be dependant on the DUP to get votes through Westminster so I'm not sure how usefull it would have been. The issue is not one of optics, May was willing to agree the backstop a year ago. It's an issue of dependance on the DUP in parliament. She could not sideline the DUP over the backstop and continue to rely upon them in Parliament.