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Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please
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J Mysterio wrote: »Scary stuff. British society is breaking down and really seems to be on the brink of chaos.
Historically speaking - with some obvious but notable exceptions - I would have considered the UK to be a reliable or consistent country, with predictable attitudes and a deliberate, measured approach. More and more this seems a thing of the past though, and to be more representative of the 'old Britain'.
Ireland has changed dramitacally in 50 years, but we have been looking forward. Building on the foundations laid by the constitution, we have slowly and surely developed this country, latterly by joining the EEA and EU. We look forward with positivity, busying ourselves in enthusastically tackling consitutional issues, but in an informed, adult and respectful way.
Britain seems to be the opposite - it is looking backwards and has been for some time. Britain is not what it was and resentment has built up. Where did it go wrong they wonder? How can the country that 'brought civilization' and 'the rule of law' to half the known world - making much of it theirs - have lost such power and influence and respect?
I watched a lot of Hitchens today - both brothers - and I found one interview particularly interesting. It is Peter Hitchens being interviewed on C-Span, ostensibly to promote his book; 'The Abolition of Britain'. It's from 2000, but is still relevant. Wheras Christopher is of the left and rails against God and the establishment (and most any institution), Peter is very much of the right and for 'the establishment' and all the things you might think of when you think of the British Empire.
The Aboliton of Britain is ostensibly his account of the end of that 'old Britain' and its transformation into the Britain of today. A lesser Britain in his view, it is a lament. A Britain diminished by a loss of or disfigurement to its values or it's character and how it is at risk of being fully shorn of the qualities that made Britain 'great'.
While this predates Brexit considerably, I find it interesting as I feel he is elucidating something many Brexiters feel but can't properly articulate. It is like a trauma at the rapid globalisation we have experienced and how this has changed the UK forever. Others like the DUP, for example, cannot accept this either - though in their case they are entirely backward.
I appreciate some of his points, such as a loss of civility, and the threat to the imagination and the homogenisation of youth posed/ caused by mass culture (something Michael D touched on in his inauguration speech), but I feel he is being overly romantic, overly conservative and a little backward too.
However, the key element seems to be that the UK has not coped with Globalisation and its concurrent loss of influence. For so long they have been the exporters and purveyors of culture to a global audience. But things have changed so drastically: their influence is greatly reduced and indeed society at home is dreadfully unequal and divided.
The lack of planning in the integration of immigrant communities has been particuarly disastrous. An unmitigated disaster which seems to now have the Orwellian Hostile Environment prescribed as a cure. A remedy which is badly affecting good and law abiding citizens and is creating a fervile atmosphere. Large sections of society completely disaffected, unsupported and at odds with each other. No go areas and no opportunity areas. Seemingly worsening class divisons. Racial hatred and ghettoisation. A horrifying stabbing/ acid attack epidemic in London.
Things are very bad indeed and the UK need to come to terms with this, though I don't see that it is possible in the current context and with the crowd on offer. A limping, teetering government sponsored by backwards extremists and half full of semi demented nationalists suffering Post Empire Stress Disorder. An opposition waiting for it to die no matter the cost, refusing to turn off the life support, not even to ease the suffering. It's a bloody sad and disastrous situation and its just going to get worse.
More waffle from you. Really, just utter garbage. You once again ably demonstrate that know nothing of day to day life in Britain.
You project bizarre, twisted fantasies of a Britain you hope exists, which bear little likeness to reality.
Society is, categorically, not on the verge of ‘breaking down’.
I am back home very frequently and despite all the fireworks on rolling news and social media, life goes on much as it ever did before Brexit became a thing.
People go to Waitrose, queue at the post office, moan about the weather, have a pint after work on a Friday, and go to the football on a Saturday. Just as they have always done and as they will continue to do.
It’s easy to be trapped into thinking that chaos and ruin are imminent and a dystopian future is inevitable, because you don’t actually have any frame of reference other than dramatic newspaper articles that would allow you to know what you are talking about
‘No go areas’ have been proven categorically to be a myth peddled by the far right, with the police denying their existence and demonstrating that they are a fabrication (unlike in some areas of France, Belgium and Sweden)
The ‘horrifying stabbing/acid attack epidemic’ sounds like something out of a right wing publication as well. There is a lot of gang related violent crime, too much, but in general for the average person London remains exceptionally safe. The spike in acid throwing incidents has also gone back the other way. You won’t have to wear a set of goggles if you are planning on visiting sometime soon.
Peter Hitchens is widely known to be an absolute fool. You are in a very small group of people who take his seriously, and an even smaller group if your understanding of british society comes almost exclusively from a near 2 decade old rambling interview of his.
See his bizarre and contemptible rants about police officers (and the public reaction to him) recently for a good idea of the nonsense he writes and how the people react to him nowadays.
And just one more (although someone with more time could take a red pen to your drivel and go on for hours), as an ‘exporter and purveyor of culture’ Britain hasn’t decided to go quietly into the night just yet.
In fact, in 2018 it topped the ‘Soft Power 30’ list of countries, moving upwards and ahead of France which drops into second place. In their own words, when assessing a country’s soft power they look at ‘trade, capital, people, culture, education, and information’.
They clearly contend that Britain is dealing with globalisation pretty well and hasn’t ‘lost all influence and respect’ as you so claim.
Maybe you will google it and read up on how and why the contributors came to their conclusions, and maybe let us know why they are so different from your own.
Of course Britain has problems, inequality of wealth and opportunities is a serious issue. Austerity has gone too far and for too long. The current batch of politicians are a shadow of some of their predecessors. Violent crime is rising (although is significantly off its highest points from this century alone). No easy fixes and no quick ones either, for sure.
But on the whole, things are fine. So well done for an awful post, drenched in hyperbole and hopeless ignorance.
Such garbage on this thread in recent weeks has really made me quite introspective about my own sense of identity as a European.
Something I’d previously held quite dearly and certainly never questioned. I still see that through an economic lense, Brexit is a terrible and harmful endeavour.
But such is the tripe I see here routinely, maybe the fissures between Britain and Europe on a social level really do run too deep to be repaired, and maybe just the ‘getting on with it’ is the right thing to do for both sides.0 -
But don't we actually run an overall balance of trade deficit with the UK.
Peregrinus said it better than I did. I don't understand your question though, why would we stop a trade deal that is in our interests? We are not a threat to the UK in trading terms as both countries have thrived under the EU so we would only be harming ourselves if we are trying to frustrate the trade talks.Folkstonian wrote: »More waffle from you. Really, just utter garbage. You once again ably demonstrate that know nothing of day to day life in Britain.
You project bizarre, twisted fantasies of a Britain you hope exists, which bear little likeness to reality.
Society is, categorically, not on the verge of ‘breaking down’.
I am back home very frequently and despite all the fireworks on rolling news and social media, life goes on much as it ever did before Brexit became a thing.
People go to Waitrose, queue at the post office, moan about the weather, have a pint after work on a Friday, and go to the football on a Saturday. Just as they have always done and as they will continue to do.
It’s easy to be trapped into thinking that chaos and ruin are imminent and a dystopian future is inevitable, because you don’t actually have any frame of reference other than dramatic newspaper articles that would allow you to know what you are talking about
‘No go areas’ have been proven categorically to be a myth peddled by the far right, with the police denying their existence and demonstrating that they are a fabrication (unlike in some areas of France, Belgium and Sweden)
The ‘horrifying stabbing/acid attack epidemic’ sounds like something out of a right wing publication as well. There is a lot of gang related violent crime, too much, but in general for the average person London remains exceptionally safe. The spike in acid throwing incidents has also gone back the other way. You won’t have to wear a set of goggles if you are planning on visiting sometime soon.
Peter Hitchens is widely known to be an absolute fool. You are in a very small group of people who take his seriously, and an even smaller group if your understanding of british society comes almost exclusively from a near 2 decade old rambling interview of his.
See his bizarre and contemptible rants about police officers (and the public reaction to him) recently for a good idea of the nonsense he writes and how the people react to him nowadays.
And just one more (although someone with more time could take a red pen do you drivel and go on for hours), as an ‘exporter and purveyor of culture’ Britain hasn’t decided to go quietly into the night just yet. In fact in 2018 it topped the ‘Soft Power 30’ list of countries, moving upwards and ahead of France which drops into second place. In their own words, when assessing a country’s soft power they look at ‘trade, capital, people, culture, education, and information’.
They clearly contend that Britain is dealing with globalisation pretty well and hasn’t lost all influence and respect as you so claim.
Maybe you will google it and read up on how and why the contributors came to their conclusions, and maybe let us know why they are so different from your own.
Of course Britain has problems, inequality of wealth and opportunities is a serious issue. Austerity has gone too far and for too long. The current batch of politicians are a shadow of some of their predecessors. Violent crime is rising (although is significantly off its highest points from this century alone). No easy fixes and no quick ones either, for sure.
But on the whole, things are fine. Well done for an awful post, drenched in hyperbole and hopeless ignorance.
Such garbage on this thread in recent weeks has really made me quite introspective about my own sense of identity as a European.
Something I’d previously held quite dearly and certainly never questioned. I still see that through an economic lense, Brexit is a terrible and harmful endeavour.
But such is the tripe I see here routinely, maybe the fissures between Britain and Europe on a social level really do run too deep to be repaired, and maybe just getting on with it is the right thing to do.
Brexit still hasn't happened yet, if you are going to say that no-go areas are a myth in the UK that is being used by people, surely you understand that the same is possible in the EU? Funny that the far right would use this myth for the UK but the same myth is true in the EU. Strange that.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »Yes, but precisely because corporation tax is a competence of the Member States and not the Union, as regards corporation tax they can do quite a lot.
Yeah but that's about the limit of it, match or beat the corporation tax, each move counterable by Ireland and no one's going to move from Ireland without years of planning.0 -
Peregrinus said it better than I did. I don't understand your question though, why would we stop a trade deal that is in our interests? We are not a threat to the UK in trading terms as both countries have thrived under the EU so we would only be harming ourselves if we are trying to frustrate the trade talks.
Brexit still hasn't happened yet, if you are going to say that no-go areas are a myth in the UK that is being used by people, surely you understand that the same is possible in the EU? Funny that the far right would use this myth for the UK but the same myth is true in the EU. Strange that.
The difference between Britain and places such as Sweden and France is that the admissions have been made by figures from within the establishment - police officers, firefighters etc. Although obviously these areas are very small, very isolated and by their nature do not represent their countries or immigrant areas as a whole.
In Britain the cops and other services get more community grief in totally white/native (whichever is your preferred term) council estates than in any majority black or Asian block0 -
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No, spook, your thinking is still too Brexity.Yeah but that's about the limit of it, match or beat the corporation tax, each move counterable by Ireland and no one's going to move from Ireland without years of planning.
Ireland's strategy is not just low CT rates, bang, done, dusted. Low CT rates only work for us because of a number of other elements in our approach including, for example, our network of double-taxation agreements with other countries. Countries that feel that our CT rates, or other aspects of our CT regime, are unfair, predatory, abusive, out of line with acceptable norms, or whatever could at a minimum serve notice to terminate and renegotiate their DTAs with us. There would be nothing inconsistent with EU law in their doing that. And the chances of their doing that are obviously increased if our CT position is seen to be out of line with a growing consensus on what is fair and reasonable.
Which is why we need to engage with this, and not stand on the sidelines honking forlornly into the sky that corporation tax is not an EU competence and imagining that this somehow protects us like a magical incantation.
As for not moving from Ireland without years of planning, the more tenuous the connection between a company's profits and Ireland, the easier it is to move them to another jurisdiction. Consider Apple: Apple books profits from sales in non-US locations in Ireland because it is tax-efficient to do so. In nearly all cases the hardware/software sold does not originate in Ireland and never comes here, and the contract of sale is not formed in Ireland. The only connection with Ireland is Apple's decision to book the profits in an Irish subsidiary. Do you seriously imagine it would take "years of planning" for Apple to change this practice and book the profits in, say, Bermuda? I can tell you that all of the necessary planning (which did not take years) has already been done. Apple and similar countries always have a plan B ready for what they will do if the tax efficiency of any structure they use is threatened by legal changes, court rulings, etc.0 -
Folkstonian wrote: »But such is the tripe I see here routinely, maybe the fissures between Britain and Europe on a social level really do run too deep to be repaired, and maybe just the ‘getting on with it’ is the right thing to do for both sides.
You are aware that the reason for these "fissures" is the most disgusting tabloid media on the planet, right?
The UK is making an ass of itself.
Who is taking the UK seriously now?
No one.0 -
The problem that might emerge for the EU from a hard Brexit is that after a period of uncertainty and taking a major hit a resurgent UK regroups
Of course the UK will regroup - we are not talking about an actual Mad Max wasteland. In 20 years, the UK will be keeping calm and carrying on, 30% poorer than they should be and largely ignored on the world stage.
This does not worry the EU - the EU's worry is that a financial crash and a prolonged depression in the UK will drag down the EU with it, given the volume of trade between the two. The smoother the transition is, the better for everyone.
No economist thinks Brexit will be an economic success; the UK is about to prove it very publicly, and will very much dampen enthusiasm in Europe for leaving the EU.0 -
Kermit.de.frog wrote: »So, we are in to a period of brinkmanship.
We have been in that period since last December, with both sides preparing to bring the house down if they don't get their way.
The ERG and Tory Remainers, that is. The EU is still watching bemusedly, waiting for the UK to come up with an actual negotiating position.0 -
10000maniacs wrote: »she had a very bad meeting with the Brexiteers today and its no deal.
No Deal is not possible in practice.
Planes grounded, ports blocked, fuel rationing, queues for food, hospitals closed. The Government wouldn't last a month.0 -
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That doesn't mean that no deal is impossible. It's not something HMG would ever choose but it's conceivably something that they might be unable to avert. And, yes, May in that scenario would be gone within weeks, and the Tory government at the next general election (which I think could not be long delayed). But none of this is impossible.Zubeneschamali wrote: »No Deal is not possible in practice.
Planes grounded, ports blocked, fuel rationing, queues for food, hospitals closed. The Government wouldn't last a month.0 -
Zubeneschamali wrote: »We have been in that period since last December, with both sides preparing to bring the house down if they don't get their way.
The ERG and Tory Remainers, that is. The EU is still watching bemusedly, waiting for the UK to come up with an actual negotiating position.
I believe that ultimately the EU would prefer to have a modicum of control over the UK rather than no control and that is why i believe the EU is as desperate for a deal as the UK-both are playing a bizarre game of poker trying to see who will blink first.Potentially in a worst case scenario this could bring the EU down if the UK kicks on from this.0 -
Tony Connolly reporting that there is little chance or sign of any breakthrough this week. Looks like the can is going to be kicked yet another month down the road.0
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I don't think they want control over the UK as such. What they want is for Brexit to happen on terms that do least damage to the EU and its member states. This means, broadly, the fewer barriers to trade the better, and the greater the degree of regulatory alignment the fewer the barriers to trade.I believe that ultimately the EU would prefer to have a modicum of control over the UK rather than no control and that is why i believe the EU is as desperate for a deal as the UK-both are playing a bizarre game of poker trying to see who will blink first.Potentially in a worst case scenario this could bring the EU down if the UK kicks on from this.0 -
I believe that ultimately the EU would prefer to have a modicum of control over the UK rather than no control and that is why i believe the EU is as desperate for a deal as the UK-both are playing a bizarre game of poker trying to see who will blink first.Potentially in a worst case scenario this could bring the EU down if the UK kicks on from this.
You keep saying this as if a totally independent UK will be some power house to be battled with.
There is nothing to back this up in reality.
The EU does not want control over the UK it's a democracy of member states. Your posts in this vein have a theme of tabloidy to them that appears to be from the redtops0 -
Cosmo Kramer wrote: »Tony Connolly reporting that there is little chance or sign of any breakthrough this week. Looks like the can is going to be kicked yet another month down the road.
Not so much as now money and plans will have to be invoked for no deal preparations, the headline story that's used in the UK is the leasing of a fleet of ships.0 -
listermint wrote: »You keep saying this as if a totally independent UK will be some power house to be battled with.
There is nothing to back this up in reality.
The EU does not want control over the UK it's a democracy of member states. Your posts in this vein have a team of tabloidy them and us out if the redtops
Trump thinks the EU is bad-so any reasonable person would disagree with most of what he has to say imo.
The main tory brexiteers are capitalists and could`nt care less about the rest of us.They truly believe that the UK can kick on from this and make them/the UK a lot of money but their kind of a prosperous UK is`nt a good place where zero hour contracts are acceptable amongst other victorian type things they`ve introduced.
The EU,whilst not perfect is the closest thing to the perfect balance for everyone-not what the tory brexiteers want which is alien to any decent caring person who wants to live in a place where everyone benifits..0 -
No Deal is perfectly possible by accident.Zubeneschamali wrote: »No Deal is not possible in practice.
Planes grounded, ports blocked, fuel rationing, queues for food, hospitals closed. The Government wouldn't last a month.
FWIW, I still believe that this is what will happen, although I dearly wish to be proven wrong by facts in due course.
Because the body political in the U.K. is still as snookered as it’s been since the GE2017, whilever the ‘opposition’ continues to sit on its thumb, and because shrinking realistic timescales.
‘In practice’, the debate on both sides of the divide in the U.K. is still very severely affected by what I would call “insular myopia”: a belief that whatever eventually gets decided out of the ongoing domestic play in the U.K. will just get rubber stamped by the EU overnight, sustained by a (long continuing) failure to place the U.K. side of the negotiation dynamic within its proper international and procedural, time-constrained context.0 -
Seriously, this is no big deal for the EU, one way or the other.. . . The main tory brexiteers are capitalists and could`nt care less about the rest of us.They truly believe that the UK can kick on from this and make them/the UK a lot of money but their kind of a prosperous UK is`nt a good place where zero hour contracts are acceptable amongst other victorian type things they`ve introduced . . .
The EU naturally thinks that the EU is a good idea, and they naturally think that leaving the EU will be bad for the UK. But if that manifests itself in the UK becoming a nation where the 1% gorge themselves and practice depraved orgies in the palaces of the mighty while everyone else forages for roadkill to feed their children, or manifests itself in some other way, it's all one to the EU. They are concerned about the welfare of the UK only in so far as it impacts on the welfare of the EU and its member states.
They wouldn't have a problem with the UK moving to US-style labour practices. After all, on the global level the EU competes quite successfully with the US which, duh, has US-style labour practices.
What they would have a problem with is the UK seeking privileged access for its producers to the EU's own internal market, while operating policies either of the right (labour deregulation, running down of social protection) or of the left (massive state aid) which aren't available to EU producers. If you want the benefits of teh single market, you accept the standards of the single market; that's a very important point, as far as the EU is concerned.
But it would be wrong to think that the EU wants to "control" the UK so that it can impose SM-type standards on the UK. This is purely a reaction to the UK's negotiating stance. The desire to see SM standards in operation in the UK arises because, and only because, the UK is seeking close economic integration with the EU. They want an all-UK customs union, for example. Well, they can have it, if they accept SM standards. If the demand for an all-UK customs union goes away, so does any desire to see the UK apply SM standards.0 -
I believe that ultimately the EU would prefer to have a modicum of control over the UK rather than no control and that is why i believe the EU is as desperate for a deal as the UK-both are playing a bizarre game of poker trying to see who will blink first.Potentially in a worst case scenario this could bring the EU down if the UK kicks on from this.
The UK had control - with it's opt-outs and vetoes that no one else had secured they had more than a 'modicum' of control. They also had what a lot of others had, including Ireland and that was 'influence'. They had the weight to influence policy.
The had so much of both that they could be seen as fettering the EU, and there is the possibility that the EU will enter a new era post Brexit, unfettered by a main member, with vested interests and it's own currency in it's midst.0 -
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This is a distinct possibility, and Ireland could find itself on a bit of a roller coaster ride to more, and faster-paced, EU integration than we have previously experienced.FrancieBrady wrote: »The UK had control - with it's opt-outs and vetoes that no one else had secured they had more than a 'modicum' of control. They also had what a lot of others had, including Ireland and that was 'influence'. They had the weight to influence policy.
The had so much of both that they could be seen as fettering the EU, and there is the possibility that the EU will enter a new era post Brexit, unfettered by a main member, with vested interests and it's own currency in it's midst.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »This is a distinct possibility, and Ireland could find itself on a bit of a roller coaster ride to more, and faster-paced, EU integration than we have previously experienced.
Only a bit more integrated though. A "United States of Europe" is a Brexiteer fantasy - I don't think they ever even pause to consider how absurd that sounds......what countries would want to vote themselves out of existence to become part of a superstate? Even if one or two governments wanted it, their public would never agree.0 -
10000maniacs wrote: »May in her speech tonight wants control over laws, borders, money and the ability to strike trade deals with countries outside the EU. She wants to honour what the British people voted for. In other words she had a very bad meeting with the Brexiteers today and its no deal.
Sad day for the Nationalists (and some Unionists) in Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement. That's probably it folks.
Thats just it I believe, if the likes of Johnson etc want her out, Britain will be leaving on a no deal, but with May as a remainer, she wants Britain to get the best deal, but the brexiteers in the cabinet are stopping her from doing it. If anything I think May will come out of this better than those that quit.0 -
I don't buy into the notion that EU integration can only mean and end-state very much like the US, but with better coffee. Europe could be much more politically integrated than it is now, and still radically different from the US. But I would just point out that:Only a bit more integrated though. A "United States of Europe" is a Brexiteer fantasy - I don't think they ever even pause to consider how absurd that sounds......what countries would want to vote themselves out of existence to become part of a superstate? Even if one or two governments wanted it, their public would never agree.
- there's an active dialogue under way about greater tax harmonisation (we've touched on it in this thread)
- Macron has uttered the words "EU army"
- the EU is still grappling with how to reconcile a single currency with member state fiscal and budgetary autonomy
- the Eu institutional arrangements are larded with structures and institutions created to accommodate UK exceptionalism, and already there's talk of a new treaty to streamline and simplify this once the UK is out of the picture
- etc, etc.
These things aren't going to go away. And now the discourse about them is going to proceed without the bracing dose of sceptical pragmatism that the UK used to bring to the table.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »Seriously, this is no big deal for the EU, one way or the other.
The EU naturally thinks that the EU is a good idea, and they naturally think that leaving the EU will be bad for the UK. But if that manifests itself in the UK becoming a nation where the 1% gorge themselves and practice depraved orgies in the palaces of the mighty while everyone else forages for roadkill to feed their children, or manifests itself in some other way, it's all one to the EU. They are concerned about the welfare of the UK only in so far as it impacts on the welfare of the EU and its member states.
They wouldn't have a problem with the UK moving to US-style labour practices. After all, on the global level the EU competes quite successfully with the US which, duh, has US-style labour practices.
What they would have a problem with is the UK seeking privileged access for its producers to the EU's own internal market, while operating policies either of the right (labour deregulation, running down of social protection) or of the left (massive state aid) which aren't available to EU producers. If you want the benefits of teh single market, you accept the standards of the single market; that's a very important point, as far as the EU is concerned.
But it would be wrong to think that the EU wants to "control" the UK so that it can impose SM-type standards on the UK. This is purely a reaction to the UK's negotiating stance. The desire to see SM standards in operation in the UK arises because, and only because, the UK is seeking close economic integration with the EU. They want an all-UK customs union, for example. Well, they can have it, if they accept SM standards. If the demand for an all-UK customs union goes away, so does any desire to see the UK apply SM standards.
As none of us have a crystal ball how all this pans out is anyone's guess-your casual dismissal of the UK as about to sink without trace is probably unlikely to happen and this whole debacle could eventually be the death knell of the EU-just to reiterate I voted remain and my opinion has stayed the same-I do wonder though,not all the brexiteers are tory self serving toffs and I wonder why they think brexit is a good thing?0 -
What are the chances, the EU will drag this out as long as possible, allowing the UK to hang with their own noose?0
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Its true that Ireland and the UK have mostly been on the same side of the argument in EU discussions. Irish and British officials generally got on well and the corridors of Brussels and Strasbourg have been invaluable for informal discussion about - among other things - N. Ireland.
In the end losing those might be the biggest downside. The UK govt can huff and puff but in the end they will be left with no choice but to settle on the EU's terms. That will lead to political chaos in London for a few years but that is their problem.
Some posters here seem to visualise the EU as a monolithic structure or super-state. It isn't; its a union of 28/27 sovereign states, with clear operating structures and clear divisions between national and shared sovereignty. That can lead to incoherence and differences at times but the positive outweighs the negative by such an overwhelming margin that notwithstanding the inevitable fringe nutters you find everywhere, there is no other country with the slightest interest in leaving.
The EU will wave the UK goodbye without any worries about others following.0 -
Well on the surface, they think it's a good thing because they've been told it is. That's maybe an over-simplification, but I've yet to engage a brexiter in any forum who's got even a modicum of understanding of the EU, what it is they dislike about the EU or even a coherent analysis of what they expect to achieve outside the EU.As none of us have a crystal ball how all this pans out is anyone's guess-your casual dismissal of the UK as about to sink without trace is probably unlikely to happen and this whole debacle could eventually be the death knell of the EU-just to reiterate I voted remain and my opinion has stayed the same-I do wonder though,not all the brexiteers are tory self serving toffs and I wonder why they think brexit is a good thing?
They talk about the WTO without any knowledge of what that actually means. As if it's some kind of friendly trading bloc like eBay. And then there's the constant retort of "We'll put tariffs on EU goods". You could beat your head on a brick wall all day long trying to explain that they in fact will pay those tariffs.0 -
ON the RTE brexit podcast Tony Connolly made the point that the UK put forward this notion of a UK wide CU, which Barnier ruled out at the time.
Now clearly the EU have moved to accept it, with the proviso that the NI backstop would still be part of the deal for then the UK leaves the CU.
However, when the UK politicians looked at it they realised that UK being within a CU meant that they couldn't do there own trade deals, or very limited ones. So pretty much as soon as the EU conceded to the UK wishes and compromised, the UK shoot back saying it isn't good enough!
I am also a little fed up listening to the politicians talk about 'will of the people'. Jo Johnson was at it when he resigned, saying that the TM provisional deal or no deal is not what they voted for. Well, yes actually, yes it was exactly what they voted for. They voted to leave, so that would either be by way of a deal or no deal. That a deal is worse than they have now is not TM's vault (though as discussed previously she must carry a significant level of blame for the overall).
The MP's are all getting into a lather about getting a deal that has little to no impact. But that was, and never was, going to happen. It is the promised trade deals with the rest of the world that were going to compensate and more for the losses from leaving the UK.
Liam Fox, very quiet, should be hauled in front a committee to spell out the likely trade deals that will be delivered, like a PnL account. Losses of trade with the EU offset by proposed trade deals.0 -
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What are the chances, the EU will drag this out as long as possible, allowing the UK to hang with their own noose?
Zero it's the UK doing the dragging , the entire process they've been doing the dragging . The UK is the one still negotiating with itself. The EU formulated a position about 2 weeks after the brexit vote occurred. Every deadline has been missed because the UK simply doesn't know what it wants , the backstop is in the backstop is out , they are out of the CU and SM , they are in a CU and the north will be in a SM etc.0
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