Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Seth Brundle

pikebishop wrote: »

in fairness to TM she's trying to defend the middle ground but unfortunately from today's performance a lot of her party has shifted dramatically far right. are they representing the view of the UK electorate?

Leaving aside her horrible past as Home Secretary, she has dug the hole that she now stands in. I've absolutely no sympathy for her at all. She foolishly triggered Art 50 and allowed her government to ignore the importance of securing a successful deal in favour of some fantasy utopia that would be Brexit. She and her government could never deliver the Brexit that they promised. She was supported by a party of bigots which restricted her options (stay in charge and have a bad Brexit or directly go for a soft Brexit). However the land border between the UK and the EU didnt even seem like an important issue for her and her team of f**kwits until it was too late.
May is a bad Prime Minister. She has led her country to a tarpit where the ordinary person is being attacked by the self serving Brexiteers. She shoukd have stamped out their nonsense over a year ago. But she allowed this crap to fester.

Britain has a lot of hard thinking to do. From their media to their elected officials to the ordinary person on the street, they need to consider what they've achieved with Brexit. What do they actually want and is it a realistic goal? The people need to educate themselves to their position in the world and how they are not bigger than their ego tells them they are.
Britain needs a strong leader to rescue them from the lunatics. Unfortunately, I can't think who that might be.

prawnsambo

Folkstonian wrote: »

Unbelievably he’s consistently polling around about 4 points below May, which paints the bleakest picture of them all I think

Apparently "Don't know" is still the most popular choice between May and Corbyn.

Corbyn has a cult following in labour. Ir's actually what's holding the party back because it is virulently opposed to the more centrist part of the party and so labour is as split if not more split than the tories.

fly_agaric

golfball37 wrote: »

The Irish have been sneering at the decision of the British people since the result came in. The glee being extolled here over Britain’s travails is quite childish. If Britain suffers so will we.

Why do bullies think they are the victim?
The main negative emotion (I think) is anger that again the UK is off chasing what it thinks of as its own prerogatives as a "power" (the "will" of the British people etc.) and screwing with "us" as a side-effect/afterthought. I believed that was all over but Brexit has taught me a different lesson.
The UK has tried but not succeeded (yet...) in getting its way at our expense thanks to EU support of Irish position on the NI border issue so I do feel happy about that.

Seth Brundle

pikebishop wrote: »

she could have easily ****ed over the GFA but decided to go with plan to try keep its integrity. a lot of the other headaballs would have easily gone a different way.

She did try to ****over the GFA in order to appease Arlene. However thankfully we had secured an agreement which had she gone ahead and broke it, would have left the UK with zero credibility when they go to making all these wonderful deals that they say they will

Water John

But her time in the Home Office showed why she wasn't PM material.
I'd wait another 24/48 hours before calling what the Tories may do internally. Fellas like Gove all wait to see what way the dice is rolling before making a call.
Doubt he went home to bed at 6 o'clock.
Anyone with a real eye on PM job would wait for TM's vote to fail.

ThePanjandrum

I think that the Brexit supporters in Britain have been pretty patient so far, but maybe this is the point where everything changes and May's supposed deal gets scrapped in favour of leaving on WTO rules and negotiating a Free Trade Agreement afterwards.

ThePanjandrum

Seth Brundle wrote: »

She did try to ****over the GFA in order to appease Arlene. However thankfully we had secured an agreement which had she gone ahead and broke it, would have left the UK with zero credibility when they go to making all these wonderful deals that they say they will

It's just the opposite though, isn't it? What does the GFA say about border arrangements? Nothing.

tuxy

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I think that the Brexit supporters in Britain have been pretty patient so far, but maybe this is the point where everything changes and May's supposed deal gets scrapped in favour of leaving on WTO rules and negotiating a Free Trade Agreement afterwards.

Under what party? The majority of tory MPs will not back something this foolish!

Seth Brundle

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

It's just the opposite though, isn't it? What does the GFA say about border arrangements? Nothing.

Not sure what your point is.
They risked the GFA by trying/hoping to ignore the agreement made last Dec.
They also ignored the existing peace and the requests from the people not to risk that peace simply to appease Arlene and her party of anti-GFA bigots.

ThePanjandrum

Seth Brundle wrote: »

She did try to ****over the GFA in order to appease Arlene. However thankfully we had secured an agreement which had she gone ahead and broke it, would have left the UK with zero credibility when they go to making all these wonderful deals that they say they will

It's just the opposite though, isn't it? Wgat does the GFA say about border arrangements? Nothing.

Seth Brundle

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

It's just the opposite though, isn't it? Wgat does the GFA say about border arrangements? Nothing.

Arlene wants the GFA to be removed.
By facilitating Arlene's Brexit hopes they risked the GFA

Inquitus

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

It's just the opposite though, isn't it? Wgat does the GFA say about border arrangements? Nothing.

We seem to have attracted a Troll from across the Irish Sea, first 3 posts of such high quality!

Atlantic Dawn

Sammy Wilson on Prime Time on RTE now, he's about to blow.

pikebishop

I'm talking about TM declarations UK wanted a frictionless border with ROI back in 2016. i agree the UK have done nothing to provide how that will happen since and the EU had stepped in and lead that (EU have be vilified for it)

Water John

GFA said nothing about border arrangements because every one presumed, that any future UK politicians wouldn't do any thing as lunatic as Brexit.
This point has been made here before but we'll forgive you as you're a new poster.

ThePanjandrum

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Not sure what your point is.
They risked the GFA by trying/hoping to ignore the agreement made last Dec.
They also ignored the existing peace and the requests from the people not to risk that peace simply to appease Arlene and her party of anti-GFA bigots.

Not at all. Look at the copy of the agreement on the EU site

Point 5 reads

Under the caveat that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, the joint
commitments set out below in this joint report shall be reflected in the Withdrawal
Agreement in full detail. This does not prejudge any adaptations that might be
appropriate in case transitional arrangements were to be agreed in the second phase of
the negotiations, and is without prejudice to discussions on the framework of the
future relationship.

Everything has not been agreed, therefore nothing has been agreed.

Infini

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Sammy Wilson on Prime Time on RTE now, he's about to blow.

Let him implode to be honest hes the kind of small minded fool that deserves nothing. I know the Irish Government takes a "diplomatic" approach to these fools but the likes of Sammy not only need to be called out but deserve to be crucified for putting their dim narrow minded BS before the peace of everyone else and if there's anything good from the whole Brexit fiasco it's showing how toxic, regressive and stupid these people are to everyone.

ThePanjandrum

Water John wrote: »

GFA said nothing about border arrangements because every one presumed, that any future UK politicians wouldn't do any thing as lunatic as Brexit.
This point has been made here before but we'll forgive you as you're a new poster.

That's your assumption. Nevertheless, it's not in the GFA so I struggle to understand why people claim that it is.

Water John

Again, point I made a good bit back, anyone who has conducted negotiations, eg business deal or wage negotiations, and I have, you move each item from coloured to white as they are agreed, and you don't revisit them. Otherwise one would never get negotiations done.

At the end of Prime Time, the other panelists are laughing at Sammy Wilson.

Junkyard Tom

Sammy Wilson exemplifies perfectly on Prime Time the type of politicians nationalists have had to deal with for decades.

Anthracite

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Not at all. Look at the copy of the agreement on the EU site

That would be the agreement they came up with when the EU actually didn't allow them to ignore the backstop agreement they had already made?

The one Raab and Johnson have resigned over?

Necro

Sammy Wilson: 'We voted to Leave'

Er... no you absolute plank your constituents that you are supposed to represent voted to Remain.

Shelga

May has managed to get the EU to agree that the UK does not have to sign up to freedom of movement, while also maintaining an open border in NI. How come people aren't happier about these things? I thought FOM was the main sticking point for a lot of people.

Atlantic Dawn

Right so no chance this deal is going to be voted in.

Seth Brundle

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

That's your assumption. Nevertheless, it's not in the GFA so I struggle to understand why people claim that it is.

A hard Brexit will impact on the GFA. To my knowledge nobody said that keeping the border open was in the GFA. That doesn't negate any impact on the GFA. Why do you persist in twisting my point?

Infini

Necro wrote: »

Sammy Wilson: 'We voted to Leave'

Er... no you absolute plank your constituents that you are supposed to represent voted to Remain.

"And by the way Sammy what about that myserious financial donation you got there to publish Brexit material in the London Papers? Or how can you say your "Defending the Union" by pursuing such a disastrous policy that not only undermine's your union by making people choose but also undermines their financial and economic prospects of NI as well? Dont forget that by opening this Pandora's Box your party's not only reactivated the Irish Question and reunification but goes against the Majority will of NI. How are you representing NI when your going against the vote of the NI people?"

ThePanjandrum

tuxy wrote: »

Under what party? The majority of tory MPs will not back something this foolish!

Why is it foolish? Ireland already trades with the USA on WTO rules. It would be an advantage to you if you had an FTA but you are not allowed to do so by the EU.

We don't want the EU making our rules although we are happy to trade with it at arms' length, so having relationships determined by an FTA is the most sensible arrangement.

hill16bhoy

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Sammy Wilson exemplifies perfectly on Prime Time the type of politicians nationalists have had to deal with for decades.

But, but, but...to take a technique used elsewhere..."both sides", or something something.

"Both sides" is bollox.

ThePanjandrum

Necro wrote: »

Sammy Wilson: 'We voted to Leave'

Er... no you absolute plank your constituents that you are supposed to represent voted to Remain.

The vote was UK wide, the UK voted to leave.

devnull

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Britain has a lot of hard thinking to do. From their media to their elected officials to the ordinary person on the street, they need to consider what they've achieved with Brexit. What do they actually want and is it a realistic goal? The people need to educate themselves to their position in the world and how they are not bigger than their ego tells them they are.

As someone who works in both the UK and Ireland recently, due to the nature of my job and who has lived in the UK in the past, I find both the two main parties as pretty much not representing who I would want to vote for as a centrist, because their policies, beliefs and values do not appeal to me.

What I did notice since working in the UK a fair bit in the last 12 months or so, is that the country has certainly changed from when I lived there approx 10 years previous. Society has become so fractured and there is so much hatred and division and blaming of the EU for everything wrong about the country, that wasn't there 10 years back, as well as the fact the majority of those naysayers have no idea of what they talk about.

One of my fathers friends in the UK has been involved in UKIP for many years and their complete lack of knowledge about Ireland and the EU in general is truly terrifying, he didn't know who the IRA was and when someone mentioned to him "Irish Republican Army" he asked why the Irish Army would be getting involved in something minor like making a border that is already there having more checks on it along with the usual rants about how Ireland will leave soon enough as they'll be better off out as well.

Britain needs a strong leader to rescue them from the lunatics. Unfortunately, I can't think who that might be.

Unfortunately I cannot see it either. There were some bright minds in the Labour Party, but Corbyn has really took that party backwards. Some would say that they admire him to sticking to his principles and yes he has mobilised a very active group of society to support him. But his policies simply will never command enough support from those in the centre to get him into power.

The decline of the Labour Party however started before Corbyn, it started when they picked the wrong brother, the wimp rather than the actual guy who had the conviction and steel that the party needed. People often say that Corbyn did very well in the last election, but in reality, despite the fact that the Tory party was in chaos, he still didn't press home the advantage, whereas another leader may well have been able to have done so.

He also has to take the blame for this current mess as he has sat by the wayside whilst this disaster has gone on and on, because he's a Euroscepetic himself, when some kind of proper opposition or campaigning for remain could have prevented the situation getting to this point, but he just hasn't been interested, which has allowed the worst Tory government I can remember, to plough on unchallenged in the face of no real opposition.

It's a desperate time for British politics, a dysfunctional government and an idle opposition and a bunch of uneducated grandstanders who have a completely skewed view of the European Union and a whole dollop of delusions of grandeur. about their country. and a media that puts out fake news on a regular basis and false narratives.

History will not judge this group of politicians well. The worry I have is that it will not be until the country suffers some serious wounds from their act of self harm, that they will come to their senses and you can be sure that it will be those in society who are the most vulnerable who will suffer the most, whilst the brexiteers will either be escaping on their European passports or using their multi-million bank balances to make them immune from the pain the regular Joe Soap on the street who has been led down the garden path by these fools has to suffer.