Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Strazdas

theguzman wrote: »

We are a Vassal state, occupied by the Franco/German EU empire, Varadkar and co. are our quisling Government implementing law from Brussels, we have no say in EU matters and makeup 0.89% of the EU population. We are in the exact same position today as 100 years ago but instead of British Rule we are under EU rule, an EU Army is looming large to occupy countries should any other country try a Brexit style stunt. Germany is currently striving to attain a Nuclear bomb and with an EU Army they will achieve this by controlling the French stockpile. The EU promote migration and social engineering to ensure the population remains docile and obedient and not one shot has to be fired. We have come a far way from a trading agreement. The EU has imperial ambitions and this is becoming clearer every day.

Fintan O'Toole's new book on Brexit (published on Thursday) addresses all these points. The whole talk of a EUSSR and a dictatorship is fuelled by Brexiteers' extreme paranoia about the UK being subjugated by what they call a foreign power. In their world, Britain can only either be a colonial power or the horrific alternative of being under the thumb of someone else. He reckons this paranoia is fuelled by their toxic relationship with WW2. Everyone else in Europe has moved on, but they are still replaying it in their heads on a daily basis - the Nazis have become a metaphor for the EU.

ilovesmybrick

Okay, I can't resist replying to this.

First we are not a vassal state, we willingly joined the EU and can exit under article 50. It would be a painful and difficult exit due to the level of integration but something that would be accepted by the EU if we were mad enough to implement it.

Second, we have exactly the same level of say in the EU as Germany, France, the UK etc. Our say is not decided on proportion of population, it is decided upon the national level. The smallest and largest members have an equal voice. There are regional groupings to be sure, but to say we have no say after we have successfully made the North one of the major issues in the current situation is delusional.

Third, read a history book. 100 years ago we were operating an illegal second government underground while engaging in armed resistance because we were not given a far lesser level of representation within the United Kingdom than we have in the EU. See the second point for that.

Fourth, the EU army? Yes, the EU may set up an army, we have an exclusion.

Germany and a nuclear bomb programme is nonsense. There is nothing, not a thing, that suggests that Germany is intending on developing a nuclear bomb. Germany is a signatory of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty as one of the countries that easily have the technical and industrial capacity to produce nuclear weapons, but refuse to do so.

Finally, I'll ignore the overtones involved in the social engineering aspect, but the free migration aspect of the EU has been a brilliant benefit to Ireland as far as I'm concerned. The Eastern Europeans who came to Ireland post 2004 have been a wonderful addition to our society. And as an Irish man living on the continent I'm thankful for the ease to which I was able to do so. Europe was far beyond a trading agreement when we joined. Closer integration has always been a stated aim, a rocky one for some states, but an overall beneficial one.

And the EU isn't imperialistic. I think you might not be so familiar with the reality of that term, but the idea that the EU would send an EU army into an EU state to force their obedience is not a description of the EU, you're thinking of Prague in 1968, and the EU is far from the USSR.

Edit: As an addendum, a basic point has to be addressed here. We are the EU. We are not subject to the EU, we are one of the 27 (28 atm) that formulate the direction of the EU.

cryptocurrency

theguzman wrote: »

We are a Vassal state, occupied by the Franco/German EU empire, Varadkar and co. are our quisling Government implementing law from Brussels, we have no say in EU matters and makeup 0.89% of the EU population. We are in the exact same position today as 100 years ago but instead of British Rule we are under EU rule, an EU Army is looming large to occupy countries should any other country try a Brexit style stunt. Germany is currently striving to attain a Nuclear bomb and with an EU Army they will achieve this by controlling the French stockpile. The EU promote migration and social engineering to ensure the population remains docile and obedient and not one shot has to be fired. We have come a far way from a trading agreement. The EU has imperial ambitions and this is becoming clearer every day.

This is true and the threats of food/medicine supplies and air traffic are nothing short of hostile acts and not something a so called friend would do to a neighbour. The UK government has a duty and responsibility to act towards all hostile acts to the country and protect its citizens. Blocking supplies is a North Korean level trick.

As for Germany getting Nukes and an army, this should be discussed at length in both London and Washington and serious action taken to put them back in their box. This is not good for global security. Germany have a long recent history of abhorrent behavior on the international stage.

I’m sure the posters here championing the EU are the same ones who laughed about an EU army (and a few now support it after TV telling them it’s good) and are still laughing about tax harmonization....it’s all happening folks, get used to it.

Personally I think the EU was fine twenty years back and unless it reverts back to that sharpish then it needs to be pulled apart.

Sam Russell

cryptocurrency wrote: »

This is true and the threats of food/medicine supplies and air traffic are nothing short of hostile acts and not something a so called friend would do to a neighbour. The UK government has a duty and responsibility to act towards all hostile acts to the country and protect its citizens. Blocking supplies is a North Korean level trick.

As for Germany getting Nukes and an army, this should be discussed at length in both London and Washington and serious action taken to put them back in their box. This is not good for global security. Germany have a long recent history of abhorrent behavior on the international stage.

I’m sure the posters here championing the EU are the same ones who laughed about an EU army (and a few now support it after TV telling them it’s good) and are still laughing about tax harmonization....it’s all happening folks, get used to it.

Personally I think the EU was fine twenty years back and unless it reverts back to that sharpish then it needs to be pulled apart.

What nonsense.

One troll quoting another troll.

An Ciarraioch

mark206000 wrote: »

All over twitter :

"Dominic Raab was told by British diplomats that Martin Selmayr had boasted that losing Northern Ireland would be the "price" Britain has to pay for Brexit."

Martin Selmayr is having a big say in our country. Someone unelected by us and put into position by more than dubious circumstances by Junker.

Twitter was also claiming that Juncker was wearing odd-coloured shoes, until it was proven to be a photoshopped image.

ilovesmybrick

cryptocurrency wrote: »

This is true and the threats of food/medicine supplies and air traffic are nothing short of hostile acts and not something a so called friend would do to a neighbour. The UK government has a duty and responsibility to act towards all hostile acts to the country and protect its citizens. Blocking supplies is a North Korean level trick.

As for Germany getting Nukes and an army, this should be discussed at length in both London and Washington and serious action taken to put them back in their box. This is not good for global security. Germany have a long recent history of abhorrent behavior on the international stage.

I’m sure the posters here championing the EU are the same ones who laughed about an EU army (and a few now support it after TV telling them it’s good) and are still laughing about tax harmonization....it’s all happening folks, get used to it.

Personally I think the EU was fine twenty years back and unless it reverts back to that sharpish then it needs to be pulled apart.

I'm sorry, but none of this is true. The issues with food and medicines are not something to do with the EU punishing the UK, it's the result of the UK unilaterally leaving the trading system by which they were able to contract the production from other EU states due to the single market. If they move to WTO terms they cannot rely on getting fresh produce or medicine from EU states as quickly. There are checks that need to be in place.

Air traffic is the same, the UK is leaving the certification programme that verifies air safety. This means that the air transit agreements they have as an EU member can no longer be used. Again, this is not the EU punishing the UK, merely the result of unilaterally pulling out of these agreements.

As for the German army stuff, the 1940's is long over, Germany does not want nor is it seeking, nuclear weapons. "Putting them back in their box" is an appalling statement to make. And as an addendum it is the past, modern Germany is not Germany of the 1930's, just like modern Britain is not Britain of the 1930's. Get over the war.

RandomName2

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Second, we have exactly the same level of say in the EU as Germany, France, the UK etc.

Sure. :rolleyes:

In reality that's only in the consilium, and the power that each respective government has in that is largely dependent upon the country they represent. In both the commission, and parliament, we have very little influence. That's not to say we are underrepresented. Statistically, going by population, we are over represented, but to say we have the same effective level of say as Germany and France is nonsense.

sink

cryptocurrency wrote: »

theguzman wrote: »

We are a Vassal state, occupied by the Franco/German EU empire, Varadkar and co. are our quisling Government implementing law from Brussels, we have no say in EU matters and makeup 0.89% of the EU population. We are in the exact same position today as 100 years ago but instead of British Rule we are under EU rule, an EU Army is looming large to occupy countries should any other country try a Brexit style stunt. Germany is currently striving to attain a Nuclear bomb and with an EU Army they will achieve this by controlling the French stockpile. The EU promote migration and social engineering to ensure the population remains docile and obedient and not one shot has to be fired. We have come a far way from a trading agreement. The EU has imperial ambitions and this is becoming clearer every day.

This is true and the threats of food/medicine supplies and air traffic are nothing short of hostile acts and not something a so called friend would do to a neighbour. The UK government has a duty and responsibility to act towards all hostile acts to the country and protect its citizens. Blocking supplies is a North Korean level trick.

As for Germany getting Nukes and an army, this should be discussed at length in both London and Washington and serious action taken to put them back in their box. This is not good for global security. Germany have a long recent history of abhorrent behavior on the international stage.

I’m sure the posters here championing the EU are the same ones who laughed about an EU army (and a few now support it after TV telling them it’s good) and are still laughing about tax harmonization....it’s all happening folks, get used to it.

Personally I think the EU was fine twenty years back and unless it reverts back to that sharpish then it needs to be pulled apart.

If you two are not from the IRA, you are certainly useful idiots.

Wheeliebin30

Are negotiatins still ongoing or is it a weekend break?

Been quite since Friday.

fly_agaric

theguzman wrote:

Germany is currently striving to attain a Nuclear bomb...

This thread is going to the dogs (or the bots/mechanical turks & troll farmers).
Looked out the window & the moon isn't even full yet...may God help us when it is!:eek:

Water John

The only negotiations that might be going on are within the Tory party.

Strazdas

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Are negotiatins still ongoing or is it a weekend break?

Been quite since Friday.

They're at an end : there is nothing to be negotiated in terms of the Withdrawal Agreement.

cryptocurrency

Rhineshark wrote: »

What a complete load of cobblers. Is this the serious politics forum or the conspiracy forum?

You sound like Nick Clegg on the EU army in 2016

An Ciarraioch

RandomName2 wrote: »

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Second, we have exactly the same level of say in the EU as Germany, France, the UK etc.

Sure. :rolleyes:

In reality that's only in the consilium, and the power that each respective government has in that is largely dependent upon the country they represent. In both the commission, and parliament, we have very little influence. That's not to say we are underrepresented. Statistically, going by population, we are over represented, but to say we have the same effective level of say as Germany and France is nonsense.

As the backstop showed, if a country has a national issue that it wants addressed, then it has two separate, but linked, avenues it can go down. Firstly, it can shore up support within its Eurogroup, which fortunately for FG was the EPP, and secondly it can hold bilateral meetings with the remaining national governments - virtually every foreign minister met Coveney in Dublin during the negotiations.

RandomName2

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

As the backstop showed, if a country has a national issue that it wants addressed, then it has two separate, but linked, avenues it can go down. Firstly, it can shore up support within its Eurogroup, which fortunately for FG was the EPP, and secondly it can hold bilateral meetings with the remaining national governments - virtually every foreign minister met Coveney in Dublin during the negotiations.

Well it's not exactly the same thing when a member state has an issue with a-soon-to-be-ex member in relation to something that is thrown up specifically by that member leaving. There is no stake for EU members to make the UK's exit any easier, and every reason to safeguard the interests of existing members.

Wheeliebin30

Strazdas wrote: »

They're at an end : there is nothing to be negotiated in terms of the Withdrawal Agreement.

I mean with trying to get the deal through, no confidence etc

An Ciarraioch

17% of people polled in the UK "haven't heard anything about" the draft deal, which seems remarkable given the coverage in all forms of media:

http://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1064226848530489344

RobMc59

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

As the backstop showed, if a country has a national issue that it wants addressed, then it has two separate, but linked, avenues it can go down. Firstly, it can shore up support within its Eurogroup, which fortunately for FG was the EPP, and secondly it can hold bilateral meetings with the remaining national governments - virtually every foreign minister met Coveney in Dublin during the negotiations.

Are you sure it`s the UK that is self delusional about it`s standing and influence in the world?

cryptocurrency

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

As the backstop showed, if a country has a national issue that it wants addressed, then it has two separate, but linked, avenues it can go down. Firstly, it can shore up support within its Eurogroup, which fortunately for FG was the EPP, and secondly it can hold bilateral meetings with the remaining national governments - virtually every foreign minister met Coveney in Dublin during the negotiations.

I agree from an Irish standpoint it was an national issue but also from a UK standpoint signing up to it and the deal is also a national issue. Both are well within their rights to stand their ground but realistically if the UK folds their citizens are well within their right to see it as folding and a national humiliation. I don’t think if I was British I’d be anything less then utterly discussed with the government. I now expect from what I’m reading today that this is how it will unfold and the no deal is on.

flutered

Strazdas wrote: »

Rhineshark wrote: »

It was terrible as used in this context. Wrong approach, horrible set up (four countries*, three of which together aren't as large as the fourth) on a 50+1 question, wrong questions - oh and sneakily changing the rules on the electorate.

There is a place for them, particularly in small, relatively homogenous - preferably with a decent level of education - states - such as Ireland or Switzerland. But there's good reason almost all large groups (I.e. nations) move away from direct democracy (not all to do with corrupt power-takers either, not that that isn't also a reason!).

That's a very good point. They probably work well in small, close knit countries like Ireland, Switzerland and Denmark but are not a good idea for a country the size of the UK and which actually contains four different countries. What we have discovered in the last two and a half years is that a referendum has the capacity to be deeply divisive in a country like Britain and to make the political situation considerably worse, not better.

the main difference is, the uk does not have a referendum commission

fash

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Because they will be subject to EU laws, rules and rulings without helping form them.

Firstly the UK did help to form the CU.
Secondly, the CU is the most powerful customs area in history, with some of the lowest tariffs and the most and best trade agreements of any entity.
Thirdly GB can leave the CU at any stage it wants and while in it enjoys access but with only a fraction of the EU law of anyone else and a fraction of the cost.
In particular, as I'm sure you'll agree, the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, German car makers need the CU with the UK to sell their cars to the UK and therefore any hint by the UK that it may leave the CU will bend the CU to its will.
More than ever before, the UK hold all the cards.
That is of course aside from the fact that CUs change slowly- especially where their tariffs are already amongst the lowest in world history with the greatest number of other states.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

he would be accepting a deal that they are not allowed to leave on their own.

GB can leave at any stage it wants, all it has to do is dump the parasite statelet NI onto the EU (and wash its hands or not as it wants). It can thereby make NI a parasite of the EU and watch the FDI roll in.
It can even (if they were really really stupid) introduce any other means of ensuring a frictionless border between NI and the Republic which the EU must make good faith efforts to implement and it would be verified by an independent body - thereby pulling NI out of the SM also.

The UK has also got the EU to reduce and minimise its customs procedures to the barest minimum possible - a wonderful precedent if the UK leaves the CU.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

They would not have met the promises in the elections of leaving the SM,CU and ECJ and this talk of an EU army and tax harmonization is against the national security interests of the UK.

The Tories lost the general election... They are only held in power by the DUP'ers.

Let's leave aside the fact that the UK is the most aggressive of all the EU states - so possibly your concern is being held back from attacking random countries (Iraq, Libya etc.) for the moment - I thought it was the UK who were the ones pushing the EU military integration- the EU-only GPS system, the UK espionage and data gathering etc.?
In any case, a EU army or tax harmonisation would always have required UK assent. Do you trust the UK government? If not, why are you comfortable giving them more power?
If you do trust the UK government, why do you think they would agree to tax harmonisation and an army?

The last 24hrs has been interesting and the next 48 more so. The wagons are circling on May. My worry now is Leo has doubled down to please his masters in Brussels and has now put Ireland in a bad position if his plan fails. Bertie or Enda would never have been as foolish admit this man

I'm personally very happy with the performance of the Irish government and also would be happy to see the UK refuse the deal (for sh*ts and giggles) - it's the same sort of interest as watching Trump getting into power and burning everything down. How long before the UK crawls back and begs for mercy? How many Tories are likely to be killed (or at least threatened with violence) by the population? Interesting times.

In any case, I find it funny that there is a good chance that the UK will refuse to sign the WA because it refuses to be live up to its prior commitments in the GFA. Perfidious Albion - always.

keane2097

Somehow I can't get that video of an Amazon Echo and a Google Home talking to one another out of my head when I click onto this thread the last two days.

An Ciarraioch

RobMc59 wrote: »

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

As the backstop showed, if a country has a national issue that it wants addressed, then it has two separate, but linked, avenues it can go down. Firstly, it can shore up support within its Eurogroup, which fortunately for FG was the EPP, and secondly it can hold bilateral meetings with the remaining national governments - virtually every foreign minister met Coveney in Dublin during the negotiations.

Are you sure it`s the UK that is self delusional about it`s standing and influence in the world?

No, I'm simply pointing out that the means of navigating the EU machinery is through networking and building alliances - as a smaller nation cannot pursue its goals on its own, it needs to highlight the importance of an issue to other national governments.

fash

theguzman wrote: »

We are a Vassal state, occupied by the Franco/German EU empire, Varadkar and co. are our quisling Government implementing law from Brussels, we have no say in EU matters and makeup 0.89% of the EU population. We are in the exact same position today as 100 years ago but instead of British Rule we are under EU rule,

Only a British quisling could compare British rule with its racism, operation, pogroms, sectarianism, genocidal famines, rent seeking and parasitic occupation of Ireland with the consensual participation in the EU.

theguzman wrote: »

an EU Army is looming large to occupy countries should any other country try a Brexit style stunt. Germany is currently striving to attain a Nuclear bomb and with an EU Army they will achieve this by controlling the French stockpile. The EU promote migration and social engineering to ensure the population remains docile and obedient and not one shot has to be fired. We have come a far way from a trading agreement. The EU has imperial ambitions and this is becoming clearer every day.

I'll give up responding to this bit - perhaps others have the energy to respond.

Donald Trump

theguzman wrote: »

We are a Vassal state, occupied by the Franco/German EU empire, Varadkar and co. are our quisling Government implementing law from Brussels, we have no say in EU matters and makeup 0.89% of the EU population. We are in the exact same position today as 100 years ago but instead of British Rule we are under EU rule, an EU Army is looming large to occupy countries should any other country try a Brexit style stunt. Germany is currently striving to attain a Nuclear bomb and with an EU Army they will achieve this by controlling the French stockpile. The EU promote migration and social engineering to ensure the population remains docile and obedient and not one shot has to be fired. We have come a far way from a trading agreement. The EU has imperial ambitions and this is becoming clearer every day.

Ah well, given that the Brits were here for 800 years and made shite of the place for us, I'll take the evil EU overlords who at least gave us nice roads and one of the wealthiest economies in the world. Beats war and population control through starvation in my book at least!

Borderhopper

Could the moderators step in here? I've been a lurker for a while and the technical information has been very interesting and invaluable in increasing my knowledge of the inner workings of the EU. Some of the predictions on a final WA have been spot on and I've found I know a lot more know about the haulage industry than I ever thought.

But there does seem to be a significant uptick in the normal of 'troll' posters. Other opinions are fine, and should be welcomed, but they need to be backed up with facts or research, or at the very least informed speculation. I have noticed that several posters seem to have similar writing styles, post at similar times and thank each other's posts. I'd hate to see this forum be brought down to the level of rubbish posted daily on U.K. forums

briany

No-one's ever said that the EU hasn't got problems, but the reality is that Ireland will always be under the influence of one bloc or another (if we wanted to keep some semblance of a decent economy going) and so it's really just a case of choosing the least sh*t thing. Getting into bed with the USA, or Russia or China would make even less sense, as it would be an even more one sided relationship in which Ireland had almost zero stroke. If you think being in the EU is vassalage, it would be playschool compared to the alternatives.

pikebishop

stumbled across this recent adam boulton pod cast. i wasnt expecting much from him but i thought one of the guests David Allen Green was a breath of freah air with cutting through all the bull****.

https://audioboom.com/posts/7087699-brexit-the-legalities-and-the-politics

An Ciarraioch

Barnier open to extending the transition period until 2022:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/18/brexit-transition-could-be-extended-to-2022-says-barnier

theguzman

Watch from 08:25 forward.


I would suggest anyone either anti-EU or pro-EU to listen to this video and it most definitely makes for eye opening listening.



The EU is about control and rather than the prevention of war it is all about German control and achieving continental domination, economically, militarily and politically.