Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

An Claidheamh

Hurrache wrote: »

Coveney getting a lot of phrase both sides of the sea over on his Radio 4 interview this morning, with Humphry's getting a lot of criticism, including by BBC employees.

His interview starts around 2:10:00 in this link, and his correction of Humphry on the already signed backstop at 2:14:00
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0000qks

Humphreys : "England, Scotland and Wales concerned NI may be out of the UK",

the same Britain that didn't even consider it in the Brexit vote?

Humphreys : "we (Ireland) need to respect Johnson and Davis views as they influence people in Britain"

Coveney : "those two men aren't even in the UK government..."

So Humphreys thinks the whole continent should respect what two British BUFFOONS,
with their own agendas, who couldn't point Ireland out on a map.... think about the border?


Also, Coveney needs to stop playing the Ireland will suffer the most card.

Remind them, the EU can destroy UKslavia.

Only negotiation they understand.

Kermit.de.frog

Contrary to the stated Irish case the French do seem to think the solution inevitably undermines the constitutional integrity of the UK.

https://twitter.com/cleacaulcutt/status/1052550549495721986

Merkel has also confirmed for first time Germany is preparing for no deal but still thinks deal is possible.

Enzokk

farmchoice wrote: »

that was very good from coveney, im no FG supporter but i really think the government and covneney in particular are doing a stellar job. honorable mention to FF as well for not trying to upset the apple cart.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I should have added that these are exceptional circumstances. The Tories have gone from trying to convince people that Brexit will enrich the nation to telling us that we'll survive while Labour just idles around waiting to get into No. 10 instead of acting like an opposition.

There is the national interest part in exceptional circumstances. They are also polling terribly right now and seeing as any criticism of FG will come back to them, they are propping them up, so they cannot really offer criticisms of the way the government is doing its business as they are allowing it to happen. They would actually be better off owning their role in what is happening instead of being both the enabler and opposition.

They have actually done the country a service with their supply and confidence agreement, but like Labour in the last election there is a chance the voters will not see that as a good thing.

lawred2 wrote: »

Was that the actual show presenter who was so outrageously biased? It sounded more like some Brexiteer guest than an anchor?

Either way a knowledgeable, eloquent and politely forceful presentation by Simon Coveney.

That would be John Humphrys, 75 years old. I don't really understand why people in this age bracket are allowed to be on radio or television any longer. Its okay for people to retire at age 65-67 but we allow older people to voice their opinions to others? From personal experience my grandparents opinion is barely fit for family gatherings where we can just forget their utterances as them being old and not knowing better.

If you look at the BBC and some of their main presenters, you have David Dimbleby, Andrew Neill and John Humphrys as examples of the youngest being 69 and the others 75 and 79 but having a very influential voice for the people. Now they may still be excellent interviewers but surely it is time to pass on to the next generation?

Nody wrote: »

Now DUP are even easier. In DUPs world there is only one thing that matters and that's being British. The fact that the rest of UK don't see them as Brits and most of the time could not care about the ass end of the country does not matter to them. They are blue blooded Brits and God Save the Queen. To them if UK had a nuclear strike flagged in advance by Russia they would demand Putin nuke them as well so they don't need to feel different. They got such an inferiority complex that anything, and that means literally speaking ANYTHING, that's different from UK is an affront that needs to be fixed (except of course for things such as gay marriage and abortion but those are not talked about publically because "look we're British and proud about it damn it" now stop talking about the stuff). Hence for DUP they would rather see NI burn down around them as long as it's the same fire as is raging in the UK no matter the cost locally "because it's worth it to be British".

The DUP took the ultimate gamble, if Brexit works out and they are all better off out of the EU then the talk of unification is dead. That is why they went for it and seemingly without even thinking about the other side of the argument.

Just on the USA trade deal that joe40 mentioned, here is a link to a similar article.

Trump tells May to abandon 'unjustified' food standards for Brexit trade deal

Donald Trump's administration has said the UK must scrap "unjustified" food and agricultural standards before it can sign a free trade deal with the US after Brexit.

The US Trade Representative sent a to letter to US Congress on Tuesday, formally announcing President Trump's intention to negotiate a free trade deal with the UK once its transitional relationship with the EU is over.

The letter states that any UK-EU trade deal must respect the US' Trade Priorities and Accountability Act, which requires the "reducing or eliminating [of] unjustified sanitary or phytosanitary restrictions" and "other unjustified technical barriers to trade."

So if anyone ever asks why there will need to be a border in case of no deal, this is a very good reason why there will need to be checks done. It is also vital on why we need the backstop written in legal text as we don't want to find ourselves kicked out of the EU because we cannot keep chlorinated chicken out of the EU food chain.

bob mcbob

Also in the (Scottish) Times yesterday was a column by Alex Massie. He is strongly unionist, conservative supporting (he also writes for the spectator) and is heavily anti-scottish nationalist in general and anti-SNP in particular.

In his column he said that it is either a soft Brexit or the United Kingdom ceases to exist.

briany

bob mcbob wrote: »

Also in the (Scottish) Times yesterday was a column by Alex Massie. He is strongly unionist, conservative supporting (he also writes for the spectator) and is heavily anti-scottish nationalist in general and anti-SNP in particular.

In his column he said that it is either a soft Brexit or the United Kingdom ceases to exist.

English Brexiteers will probably be happy enough to see the UK crumble in order to get a clean break from the EU.

Nody

pH wrote: »

At least now the situation is clear, Ireland (as an EU member) is insisting that NI remain fully for all time (well at least until 'that' vote) remain fully in both the customs union and single market.

Therefore there are 3 options (presuming Brexit goes ahead, the 4th is remaing in the EU)

1) The UK get some kind of Canada like trade deal, NI is split off and remains in the customs union and single market.
2) All of the UK remains in the single market and customs union (but not the EU)
3) No deal is possible.

Of these, I think given the current players (3) is most likely, and I feel abandoning Brexit is more likely than (1) or (2). I hope I'm proved wrong.

Full agreement

One other thing, I haven't heard anything about on UK or Irish news is can the UK actually split NI out like this? I presume it would mean new legislation in Westminster, but is it constitutionally possible, could the DUP fight it in the UK courts?

NI already has seperate rules from the mainland (they already do for example 10% checks on animals going into UK as the island of Ireland could have different disease profile than UK mainland) so there is already a difference from a law perspective (along with gay marriage & abortion for example). Hence it can be done but it could (would?) be challenged in court depending on how it was implemented most likely but in the end would go through even if it might take a round or two in court to get the final forms for it green lighted.

Imreoir2

pH wrote: »

At least now the situation is clear, Ireland (as an EU member) is insisting that NI remain fully for all time (well at least until 'that' vote) remain fully in both the customs union and single market.

Not true, the backstop remains in place for all time, but is only used unless and until some other arangement is agreed that prevents a hard border. The UK government INSISTS that such an other arangement can and will be agreed. In fact if you were to believe them you would think that a backstop is not even necessary because it is certain that such an other arangement will be in place in time for the end of the transition period.

Ireland accepts that if such an arangement can be found, then the backstop will not be needed, but the backstop must still be in place "just in case".

Leroy42

When people like Humphreys bring out the respect the British people, do they not see how hypocritical that is. Coveney is there putting forward the Irish position, and basically Humphreys is saying that isn't important because the British view is more important.

TBH, whilst I totally understand the 'game' that has to be played out diplomatically in all of this, Coveney at times seemed deeply frustrated during that and it must really be hard to keep it from boiling over. When Humphreys said that the December agreement meant nothing as it was all just part of a negotiation and nothing was agreement until the very end, he should have said that should they treat the GFA agreement the same? And therefore what weight can they out on anything the UK agree to as they are more than happy to go back on anything.

Luckily, for all concerned, it is Coveney and not me in the interviews.

Also, there is no commentary around the fact that the reason why the backstop would ever come into effect, and TM talks about it as a given, is that the claims that they made regarding technology etc have been completely debunked. Even the UK know that they have little hope of finding a solution and thus the backstop becomes a real issue.

pH

briany wrote: »

English Brexiteers will probably be happy enough to see the UK crumble in order to get a clean break from the EU.

But equally the Irish Brit-bashers are enjoying seeing UK getting bashed around and humiliated. A no-deal scenario is proportionally worse for Ireland than it is for the UK, a 10 year recession and 4 day weeks might seem like a small price to pay to give the UK one in the eye, but certainly both the UK and Ireland will suffer hugely without a deal.

lawred2

pH wrote: »

But equally the Irish Brit-bashers are enjoying seeing UK getting bashed around and humiliated. A no-deal scenario is proportionally worse for Ireland than it is for the UK, a 10 year recession and 4 day weeks might seem like a small price to pay to give the UK one in the eye, but certainly both the UK and Ireland will suffer hugely without a deal.

Where did you pull this prediction from?

Btw I think you'll find most people when it comes down to it want their lives to be effected as little as possible.

As for getting bashed around and humiliated?

By whom?

It's entirely and continues to be entirely their own doing.

Leroy42

pH wrote: »

But equally the Irish Brit-bashers are enjoying seeing UK getting bashed around and humiliated. A no-deal scenario is proportionally worse for Ireland than it is for the UK, a 10 year recession and 4 day weeks might seem like a small price to pay to give the UK one in the eye, but certainly both the UK and Ireland will suffer hugely without a deal.

If a deal is finally done, it will very much like the deal they could have done from the very start.

TM has lied her way throughout this process. Ministers if HMG has called the EU evil, likened it with Stalin Russia. The press has openly mocked EU leaders.

The reason why the UK is in this position is entirely down to laziness and arrogance on the part of the politicians and electorate. That the voters didn't bother to work out the actual impact of their vote is on them, no one else

Kermit.de.frog

Anyone who thinks Ireland woukd suffer more than the UK is blinkered for the simple fact is Ireland will have the support of the EU institutions and the ECB (as Draghi has already said) as well as the stability of membership.

Ireland would take a hit but I believe the UK will take a much bigger hit both economically and politically.

The future of the UK in a no deal as one entity is perilous.

Leroy42

And in a no deal Ireland will still have access to the EU markets. The UK will effectively have no markets except for WTO rules.

flatty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Contrary to the stated Irish case the French do seem to think the solution inevitably undermines the constitutional integrity of the UK.

https://twitter.com/cleacaulcutt/status/1052550549495721986

Merkel has also confirmed for first time Germany is preparing for no deal but still thinks deal is possible.

Angela Merkel has always struck me as a straight forward pragmatist. She wouldn't be one to bluff.

ancapailldorcha

flatty wrote: »

Angela Merkel has always struck me as a straight forward pragmatist. She wouldn't be one to bluff.

I agree. For one, she's let Barnier and other EU figures handle this as without any input from her which is how it should be. For another, she seems to be fairly straightforward and honest, especially compared to the current British establishment.

I'm wondering if a no-deal Brexit makes a referendum more likely.

briany

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I agree. For one, she's let Barnier and other EU figures handle this as without any input from her which is how it should be. For another, she seems to be fairly straightforward and honest, especially compared to the current British establishment.

I'm wondering if a no-deal Brexit makes a referendum more likely.

You can afford to be honest when you don't have to run around telling each side what the want to hear, like what May's doing.

flatty

Leroy42 wrote: »

pH wrote: »

But equally the Irish Brit-bashers are enjoying seeing UK getting bashed around and humiliated. A no-deal scenario is proportionally worse for Ireland than it is for the UK, a 10 year recession and 4 day weeks might seem like a small price to pay to give the UK one in the eye, but certainly both the UK and Ireland will suffer hugely without a deal.

If a deal is finally done, it will very much like the deal they could have done from the very start.

TM has lied her way throughout this process. Ministers if HMG has called the EU evil, likened it with Stalin Russia. The press has openly mocked EU leaders.

The reason why the UK is in this position is entirely down to laziness and arrogance on the part of the politicians and electorate. That the voters didn't bother to work out the actual impact of their vote is on them, no one else

Just over half of the voters.

ilovesmybrick

Dytalus wrote:

Can't decide whether I want to listen to the broadcast now to see how Coveney did, or avoid it in case I have an aneurysm if this is the type of tripe being said.

I'd recommend It, I wouldn't be his biggest fan, but Coveney did well to politely slap down the most egregious nonsense and called him out as a mouth piece for Boris

road_high

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The Aussies damn the prospects of a UK trade deal with faint praise:

https://threader.app/thread/1052458691629338626

Jesus the vultures are really circling...and Australia is supposedly one of the many Commonwealth countries the teary eyed Empire nostalgists view as almost family! With friends like those...lol
The UK is a small fish in a big pond but they've really never outgrown their own state of self importance.

BonnieSituation

Mc Love wrote: »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0000qks Coveney on Radio4 this morning, from 2hr 10mins in, and things get heated from 2:18 onwards.

Mairéad McGuinness on HardTalk now

HARDtalk - Vice President of European Parliament, Mairead McGuinness, 17/10/2018 GMT - @bbcworldservice http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswjfm

flatty

It's very hard to know what will happen regarding another referendum. The main bbc news last night barely mentioned brexit.

Kermit.de.frog

Varadkar on arriving in Brussel pretty forthright on the backstop

https://twitter.com/DailyFXTeam/status/1052564415839707136

eigrod

Oh sweet jesus

@KateHoeyMP If a backstop is such a good idea to sort the border issue why do we not go for a backstop around the entire British Isles then Irish Republic can be part of it too @IrexitFreedom

A senior Labour MP - this is not a parody account. This world is ****ed up.

joe40

eigrod wrote: »

Oh sweet jesus

@KateHoeyMP If a backstop is such a good idea to sort the border issue why do we not go for a backstop around the entire British Isles then Irish Republic can be part of it too @IrexitFreedom

A senior Labour MP - this is not a parody account. This world is ****ed up.

She is a clown, not the first stupid comment she has come out with.

Seth Brundle

eigrod wrote: »

Oh sweet jesus

@KateHoeyMP If a backstop is such a good idea to sort the border issue why do we not go for a backstop around the entire British Isles then Irish Republic can be part of it too @IrexitFreedom

A senior Labour MP - this is not a parody account. This world is ****ed up.

I love this response to her tweet...
https://twitter.com/ElliotMarcSmith/status/1052550508848787456


Edit: the whole twitter thread is worth a read just as a reassurance that tehre are some sane people out there who actually get it!

briany

eigrod wrote: »

Oh sweet jesus

@KateHoeyMP If a backstop is such a good idea to sort the border issue why do we not go for a backstop around the entire British Isles then Irish Republic can be part of it too @IrexitFreedom

A senior Labour MP - this is not a parody account. This world is ****ed up.

"Yes, Ireland. Come be free from the EU. Come be free to do as the UK tells you once again, just like in the good old days."

Hurrache

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Mairéad McGuinness on HardTalk now

HARDtalk - Vice President of European Parliament, Mairead McGuinness, 17/10/2018 GMT - @bbcworldservice http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswjfm

The contrast between Irish and UK politicians, when it comes to having an understanding about the other side, really is staggering. Bar Howlin's howler yesterday, they really are on point.

An Claidheamh

pH wrote: »

But equally the Irish Brit-bashers are enjoying seeing UK getting bashed around and humiliated. A no-deal scenario is proportionally worse for Ireland than it is for the UK, a 10 year recession and 4 day weeks might seem like a small price to pay to give the UK one in the eye, but certainly both the UK and Ireland will suffer hugely without a deal.

This is what Britain brought on us, not the other way round.

Won't break up our country though.

Britain may actually cease to exist. Sorry "Great" Britain.

England will merely be a small weak country, something the Brexiteers have always deluded themselves into believing the opposite.

Mc Love

pH wrote: »

But equally the Irish Brit-bashers are enjoying seeing UK getting bashed around and humiliated. A no-deal scenario is proportionally worse for Ireland than it is for the UK, a 10 year recession and 4 day weeks might seem like a small price to pay to give the UK one in the eye, but certainly both the UK and Ireland will suffer hugely without a deal.

Some economic commentators have said otherwise tbh. Ireland will still be part of the EU whereas the UK will be up the creek without a paddle

prawnsambo

road_high wrote: »

Jesus the vultures are really circling...and Australia is supposedly one of the many Commonwealth countries the teary eyed Empire nostalgists view as almost family! With friends like those...lol
The UK is a small fish in a big pond but they've really never outgrown their own state of self importance.

I think I said this before, but a hard brexit would be like falling into the south China sea with a bad head wound.