Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Leroy42

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The referendum is neither here nor there, it was not binding, just advisory. Parliament can ignore it if they decide to.

A question does arise if the UK want to withdraw A50 - can they do it alone, do they need unanimous support to withdraw it from the other 27?

Well, yes, from a purely legal (or is that constitutional?) POV you are correct but TM, the MPs and the media have painted this as the will of the people for so long that whether it is doable or not in terms of legality it certainly isn't in terms of political standing.

The ref have been allowed to be considered as the only voice ever to be listened to, with anybody even attempting to state that it was clear, based on correct information or even should be revisited is shouted down as antidemocratic.

So TM could reverse A50, it would see her lose the PM straight away though.

In terms of not going ahead with something that is damaging, therein lies the problem. Even now, the UK public are being denised the real information. They are still being told that whilst things may be tricky, the great future is worth it.

This falls completely at the feet of TM and the government. They have not only allowed, but actively embraced, the notion that anything that doesn't back your view can simply be dismissed.

Even now, TM is fighting against giving full legal advice to the HoC. If she was more concerned about the UK, rather than getting what she wants through she would be opening this to everyone and letting them all decide with the best info.

funkey_monkey

Leaked Commons legal analysis
http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Withdrawal-Agreement-Legal-and-Governance-Aspects.pdf

Source: https://brexitcentral.com/leaked-commons-legal-analysis-brexit-deal-vindicates-trump-contradicts-may-adds-brexiteers-concerns/

Not sure about its validity, but posted anyway!

Zubeneschamali

briany wrote: »

What are the chances of organised and persistent political violence on UK streets if no Brexit is to be had?

Zero.

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

Well, yes, from a purely legal (or is that constitutional?) POV you are correct but TM, the MPs and the media have painted this as the will of the people for so long that whether it is doable or not in terms of legality it certainly isn't in terms of political standing.

So what will all the enraged Brexiteers actually do, politically?

Vote for Corbyn? I don't think so. UKIP are entirely useless.

Econ__

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Zero.

Agree. Threats of violence on the streets is the real project fear.

Laois_Man

briany wrote: »

What are the chances of organised and persistent political violence on UK streets if no Brexit is to be had?

You must figure that No Brexit is the outcome Nigel Farage secretly wants because it would enable his party to take so much of the Brexit vote that he could find his party doing an electoral performance similar to the Lib Dems in 2010, and going into coalition government.

UKIP isn't really his party anymore and he has disassociated himself from the party since they started teaming up with the likes of Tommy Robinson!

I think he'll wait to see what happens next year and he'll set up a new party in protest against it unless it is a hard Brexit!

CelticRambler

briany wrote: »

What are the chances of organised and persistent political violence on UK streets if no Brexit is to be had?

Up to now, I've considered the spectre of violence on the streets of Britain as one of the more valid exaggerations of "project fear" (whether it's forecast by Leavers if the country remains, or Remainers if leaving triggers a period of worse austerity than up to now)

But having seen how quickly a directionless protest in France has degenerated into pure, meaningless vandalism, I'm beginning to change my opinion. While the French have always been somewhat Brexity in their negotiating strategy ("Raise my wages or I'll burn down the factory and put myself out of a job") I don't believe for one minute that the hoodlums who trashed the Arc de Triomphe gift-shop and museum care too hoots about the price of diesel.

It might be just the same kind of feckineejitery that used to infect English football, but it feels like there's something (or someone) else at work in the background; and if that's the case, then I can see how grumbling public discontent arising from a chaotic Brexit could be hijacked by this same "social influencer". I doubt that the strength of feeling amongst Leavers (even if they come across as more radical than Remainers) would be sufficient to bring the general public onto the streets in sufficient number, so I don't think a cancelled Brexit would be exploitable in the same way.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

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An Ciarraioch

Unlikely NI will have any of the Irish MEPs next year:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-citizens-in-north-unlikely-to-have-vote-in-european-elections-1.3717747

RobMc59

Tell me how wrote: »

What is your opinion on this?
Do you think we should?

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/letterstotheeditor/2017/09/20/news/ireland-should-be-reunited-by-rejoining-the-united-kingdom-1140831/
I hope the link works.(please excuse my limited internet skills!)

VinLieger

RobMc59 wrote: »

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/letterstotheeditor/2017/09/20/news/ireland-should-be-reunited-by-rejoining-the-united-kingdom-1140831/
I hope the link works.(please excuse my limited internet skills!)

That's not an article its a letter from a "reader" with very dubious conclusions based of quite a blatant hardcore unionist bias

steddyeddy

RobMc59 wrote: »

I read an interesting article on Irishnews.com suggesting Ireland should be reunited by rejoining the UK-I wondered if anyone else has read it?

No I haven't. I just have to look to Northern Ireland to see how that would work out. We'd lose out culturally, economically and on the world stage by leaving the EU and jonknv thd sinking ship across the sea.

blanch152

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Unlikely NI will have any of the Irish MEPs next year:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-citizens-in-north-unlikely-to-have-vote-in-european-elections-1.3717747

A bit ironic to see Sinn Fein criticising the lack of representation in Stratsbourg seeing as they are responsible for the lack of representation in Stormont and Westminister.

UsedToWait

RobMc59 wrote: »

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/letterstotheeditor/2017/09/20/news/ireland-should-be-reunited-by-rejoining-the-united-kingdom-1140831/
I hope the link works.(please excuse my limited internet skills!)

Troll.


"The Republic itself is a failed ex-colonial state which has driven out many generations of people to find work in other countries, while looking after an old shop who hand down their jobs to sons and daughters through tight connections in precluded interview processes"

MrMusician18

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Unlikely NI will have any of the Irish MEPs next year:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-citizens-in-north-unlikely-to-have-vote-in-european-elections-1.3717747

Why should this be a surprise? Of course NI shouldn't have any representation when the UK is no longer a member.

RobMc59

VinLieger wrote: »

That's not an article its a letter from a "reader" with very dubious conclusions based of quite a blatant hardcore unionist bias

Apologies-I thought it was an article and didn't realise it was a letter.

MrMusician18

UsedToWait wrote: »

Troll.


"The Republic itself is a failed ex-colonial state which has driven out many generations of people to find work in other countries, while looking after an old shop who hand down their jobs to sons and daughters through tight connections in precluded interview processes"

Is that the same Maurice Fitzgerald that got 30 votes in the 2007 general for Cork South Central?

LuckyLloyd

RobMc59 wrote: »

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/letterstotheeditor/2017/09/20/news/ireland-should-be-reunited-by-rejoining-the-united-kingdom-1140831/
I hope the link works.(please excuse my limited internet skills!)

:rolleyes:

I wouldn't give that nonsense the dignity of a response.

LuckyLloyd

RobMc59 wrote: »

Apologies-I thought it was an article and didn't realise it was a letter.

But did you not realise it was a bit nonsensical?

VinLieger

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

But did you not realise it was a bit nonsensical?

Classic example of confirmation bias

Christy42

MrMusician18 wrote: »

UsedToWait wrote: »

Troll.


"The Republic itself is a failed ex-colonial state which has driven out many generations of people to find work in other countries, while looking after an old shop who hand down their jobs to sons and daughters through tight connections in precluded interview processes"

Is that the same Maurice Fitzgerald that got 30 votes in the 2007 general for Cork South Central?

I would not put any money on the name being the author's real name. Possibly grabbed it from somewhere obscure like that but it is just a troll.

farmchoice

ollie robbins and steve barclay before the exiting the eu committee now


https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/852c6d58-68c4-4b8f-9fd2-6ad62099469b

RobMc59

VinLieger wrote: »

Classic example of confirmation bias

More a classic example of a genuine mistake,which I suppose you would never make..

Strazdas

bamayang wrote: »

Probably off topic, but could someone recommend a couple of good pro-brexiteers on Twitter to follow? Over time my following has fallen towards remain people and I often wonder am I in an echo chamber of 'lets laugh at those brexiteer ejits'.

Will try have a listen to the podcasts mentioned above, but if anyone could recommend a couple of good twitterers, I would appreciate it.

There doesn't seem to be that many. Leave.EU and Brexit Central are very prominent of course but @Michael_Heaver of Westmonster seems to be one of the best known pro-Brexit tweeters

20silkcut

Bernard Jenkin MP was on the news at one complaining that the EU has the temerity to protect its own interest and subject the people of Ireland to tariffs.
The conversion of brrxiteers is an unwinable battle. You can talk to a man with a wooden leg but not a man with a wooden head.
Why are RTE entertaining these freaks??

Brexiteer logic : The EU should not protect its own interests.

McGiver

Calina wrote: »

The UK does not do joint sovereignty. No one watching the current events should be naive enough to trust them until devolution for England happens and proportional representation is implemented.
Not a good idea.

That's the thing, English political class don't want to share sovereignty. The UK "constitutional" arrangement, the whole history of the UK in the EU (opt-outs, rebates etc.) including Brexit demonstrate it very clearly.

This is one of reasons why UK doesn't have a federal arrangement.

McGiver

briany wrote: »

You must figure that No Brexit is the outcome Nigel Farage secretly wants because it would enable his party to take so much of the Brexit vote that he could find his party doing an electoral performance similar to the Lib Dems in 2010, and going into coalition government.

And possibly life-long EU salary & pension!

VinLieger

RobMc59 wrote: »

More a classic example of a genuine mistake,which I suppose you would never make..

A mistake made due to confirmation bias, everyone is guilty of it now and then, i dont know what your problem is.

funkey_monkey

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46419790

The UK will not be able to "unilaterally" quit the EU's customs rules under the Irish backstop, the UK's chief law officer has said.

Wasn't this the whole point of it so that one side could not shirk their responsibilities? I understood there was to be an independent committee set up to arbitrate on when this could happen.

Why are they acting so surprised at this declaration from the AG?

LuckyLloyd

funkey_monkey wrote: »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46419790



Wasn't this the whole point of it so that one side could not shirk their responsibilities? I understood there was to be an independent committee set up to arbitrate on when this could happen.

Why are they acting so surprised at this declaration from the AG?

Because rhyme and reason left the building a long time ago. They're trying to whip up the impression of HMG 'hiding' how bad a deal it is, and that the full text of legal advice will be this incredibly significant rallying cry moment for Brexit.

You are completely correct: this was known.