Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

VinLieger

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Very disappointing. With all that's gone on, people in Britain still expect the EU to cave in and renegotiate. A majority - 45% - think this is what should happen. Sad, really. People in Britain aren't genetically stupid so it must be that they are woefully misinformed.

They have been lied to repeatedly over decades at this stage not just about the "evils" of Europe but about their economic might, political strength and place in the world, is it any wonder they are this blind to the realities of the situation?

Tell me how

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I dunno. A Remain by default or referendum win by a small margin will only kick the can down the road. The Eurosceptic genie is out of the lamp and he won't be going back in. When they were just a rump in the Tory party, a la Major's "bastards", they still caused a lot of trouble. Now that they have a mandate, built on lies but a mandate nonetheless, they will continue to paralyse Britain and by default hamper any progress in the EU. The whole farce is a boil that needs to be lanced but that won't be happening anytime soon.

I expect Brexit to happen. And, if it does as expected on the 29th of March, then a lot of the UK media, and other 'Global players' will immediately agitate as much as they can for disruption in other EU countries and then suggestions that they too should leave.

French protests will be reported as a sign that they are thinking of leaving.
Spanish right wing gains will be reported as a sign that they are thinking of leaving
Hungarian conservative motions will be reported as a sign that they are thinking of leaving
Euro-sceptics in those countries will invite Brexiteers to public demonstrations claiming the joys of sovereignty. The UK media will be on the outside (as always to be fair) and actively fueling anti-EU sentiment wherever it can.

I've said before I think Brexit has to happen in the sense of upholding the semblance of democracy. But, if a 2nd referendum was handled correctly, with an option to remain, I would hope that that could be used to say democracy was not rail-roaded and they would vote to do so. Let the Brexiteers lick their wounds and return. It's not attractive, but preferable to the alternative.

serfboard

VinLieger wrote: »

They have been lied to repeatedly over decades at this stage not just about the "evils" of Europe but about their economic might, political strength and place in the world, is it any wonder they are this blind to the realities of the situation?

I've often said that their misinformation starts in schools with their woefully incomplete teaching of history, "might of the empire", how the locals were just so glad to see the colonisers coming, and wilfully parted with their possessions as "gifts" to her majesty. Exporting food from one of their colonies while a famine was going on? Never heard of it.

Start with that base and then add the idea that the country still doesn't realise, decades after World War II finished, that they are not a great empire anymore.

Then pile on top of that decades of manipulation by Billionaire (unelected) media owners with their own agendas.A measure of xenophobia among some of the populace helps here.

Finally, add in the long-term effects of Thatcherism - privatising everything, and throwing workers either onto the scrapheap, or into low-paid, uncertain service jobs, coupled with more recently subjecting the public to unnecessary austerity by those fools Cameron and Osborne, and you have the perfect ingredients to make a Brexit cocktail mess.

Imreoir2

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

New ComRes polls have voters rejecting both May's deal and no deal, neither wanting to stay in the EU or a second referendum, wanting the EU to renegotiate, but not an extension to Article 50:

http://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1069720867180027909

http://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1069721050198499329

http://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1069721145128161282

Nice to see they have finally figured out what they want. :rolleyes:

Given that both parliament and the people cannot figure out what to do, I think we are at a greater risk of a no-deal crash Brexit than at any point previous to this. Does anyone else find it surreal that after over two years of negioatations and with only a few months to go that we would still be seriously talking about options as wildly different as no Brexit and no-deal, with none of us able to say at this point which of them has the better chance of happening?

Is there another example of a modern democratic system being so compleatly broken by an issue? Regardless of every other issue, the political chaos that Brexit has caused was reason enough to reject it.

First Up

serfboard wrote: »

VinLieger wrote: »

They have been lied to repeatedly over decades at this stage not just about the "evils" of Europe but about their economic might, political strength and place in the world, is it any wonder they are this blind to the realities of the situation?

I've often said that their misinformation starts in schools with their woefully incomplete teaching of history, "might of the empire", how the locals were just so glad to see the colonisers coming, and wilfully parted with their possessions as "gifts" to her majesty. Exporting food from one of their colonies while a famine was going on? Never heard of it.

Start with that base and then add then idea that the country still doesn't realise, decades after World War II finished, that they are not a great empire anymore.

Then pile on top of that decades of manipulation by Billionaire (unelected) media owners with their own agendas.A measure of xenophobia among some of the populace helps here.

Finally, add in the long-term effects of Thatcherism - privatising everything, and throwing workers either onto the scrapheap, or into low-paid, uncertain service jobs, coupled with more recently subjecting the public to unnecessary austerity by those fools Cameron and Osborne, and you have the perfect ingredients to make a Brexit cocktail mess.

You don't have to go all that far back in history. Its mostly WW2 and to a lesser extent WW1.
Many in the UK feel that the rest of Europe still owes them a debt of gratitude and a status that properly reflects their sacrifices. They can't get their heads around countries like France and Belgium aligning with Germany and see it almost as betrayal.

That resentment permeates much of the attitude to the EU. It isn't rational but its deep in there and I've no idea how or when they will grow out of it.

Strazdas

serfboard wrote: »

I've often said that their misinformation starts in schools with their woefully incomplete teaching of history, "might of the empire", how the locals were just so glad to see the colonisers coming, and wilfully parted with their possessions as "gifts" to her majesty. Exporting food from one of their colonies while a famine was going on? Never heard of it.

Start with that base and then add then idea that the country still doesn't realise, decades after World War II finished, that they are not a great empire anymore.

Then pile on top of that decades of manipulation by Billionaire (unelected) media owners with their own agendas.A measure of xenophobia among some of the populace helps here.

Finally, add in the long-term effects of Thatcherism - privatising everything, and throwing workers either onto the scrapheap, or into low-paid, uncertain service jobs, coupled with more recently subjecting the public to unnecessary austerity by those fools Cameron and Osborne, and you have the perfect ingredients to make a Brexit cocktail mess.

Yes, you could argue Brexit is a symptom of a dysfunctional UK rather than the cause of it. The UK itself is the problem, Brexit merely the tool that has brought everything to the surface.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX2tuJSsKqY

The debate in the Commons is very interesting regarding the contempt thing.

Tabnabs

BBC not going ahead with Brexit debate.

Infini

MrMusician18 wrote: »

However, politically it isn't possible. Reversing the referendum result in parliament only would not go down well at all so the result has to be acted on. The only way Brexit could be stopped at this stage is a second referendum.

It certainly is possible even more that being able to rescind A50 is actually an option now by the looks of things. The refererendum was ultimately advisory they arent compelled to Brexit as the result could very well be argued as a deadlock.

The result wasnt an overwhelming one with less than 2% majority in favour of leave and thats only out of those who did vote. Take into account the russian troll factor, blatent lies of the campaign, cheating and dodgy spending of the leave campaign amongst others and the fact that 2 1/2 years of this results in a WA most cannot agree to and the economic costs and Parliment can very well direct the UK government to cancel brexit and revoke A50 based on the above and because Brexit simply cannot be delivered without either giving up control (not taking it back) or suffering drastic economic damage.

The problems the UK have are their own homegrown ones not the EU's and they cant keep blaming others for their own failures. They need to bite the bullet on this and end this charade its either stay in the EU with control, leave and give up control with no say or crash and wreck their own country. The choice is obvious to us but its up to them to cop on and make the best one.

A Dub in Glasgo

Well done to the those who took this Article 50 revocation case in Scotland, the UK Government fought hard wasting tens of thousands of public money to try and get the case thrown out. The EU member states through the commission also argued a member state cannot unilaterally revoke Article 50

This holes the UK government under the waterline with their 'revoking is not an option as the rules do not allow it' mantra

https://twitter.com/bricksilk/status/1069920051027984386

J Mysterio

EdgeCase wrote: »

The amazing bit is the considerable lengths the UK government went to to argue that revoking the article 50 letter is impossible and even spending substantial resources on legal representation to try and stop the case from ever being heard.

That’s not something you do if you know you’ve a strong argument and a sturdy mandate.

They’re obviously trying to make this irrevocable.

Indeed. The vague, ill defined advisory referendum is in fact an unimpeachable mandate to deliver a very specific, unstoppable Brexit!

An Ciarraioch

Officially declared in contempt by 311 votes to 293.

c.p.w.g.w

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Officially declared in contempt by 311 votes to 293.

The government will drag their heels, referring it to the privilege committee

lawred2

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Officially declared in contempt by 311 votes to 293.

are there any real implications for that?

An Ciarraioch

Leadsom already announced the advice will be published tomorrow.

farmchoice

they will now publish the full legal advise tomorrow.
its unprecedented for a government to be found in contempt of parliament.


now there is a suspicion that they got the worst of it out of the way yesterday but there will be a lot of stuff for MP's to get excited about and throw at may over the next week,

if she ever had any chance of her getting her deal done its gone now.


its hard to see her survive a no confidence vote if one comes now after the meaningful vote is lost.

c.p.w.g.w

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Leadsom already announced the advice will be published tomorrow.

Think she said the government will make a statement tomorrow, don't think she said it would be published tomorrow

farmchoice

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Think she said the government will make a statement tomorrow, don't think she said it would be published tomorrow

i understood it to mean it would be published tomorrow.

BabyCheeses

Leroy42 wrote: »

^^ so basically nobody has the slightest Scooby Do about what to actually do!

It's been a productive few years.

LeinsterDub

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Officially declared in contempt by 311 votes to 293.

https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1070001166464049152


Video here if you're interested . Of course this is all just pantomime and will make very little difference.

Tell me how

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Video here if you're interested . Of course this is all just pantomime and will make very little difference.

Which way did the DUP vote?

maximoose

farmchoice wrote: »

i understood it to mean it would be published tomorrow.

Yep, it'll be out tomorrow

Awesomeness

Tell me how wrote: »

Which way did the DUP vote?

Against. According to Dodds they did not break the confidence and supply agreement. Theresa May broke it

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Which way did the DUP vote?

Given the numbers they must have voted against the government.

The guardian say they voted against.

VinLieger

Tell me how wrote: »

Which way did the DUP vote?

Against the government

Tell me how

Awesomeness wrote: »

Against. According to Dodds they did not break the confidence and supply agreement. Theresa May broke it

'I know you are but what am I' level response by Dodd's. Unsurprisingly.

Deleted User wrote: »

Given the numbers they must have voted against the government.
The guardian say they voted against.

VinLieger wrote: »

Against the government

First time ever government has been found in contempt by Parliament apparently.

Leroy42

And let us not forget that Davis should have been found in contempt with his little ruse about the impact statements.

Hurrache

The Grieve amendment being debated now will be interesting to watch. If passed it means that MPs can direct what the government is to do if the vote next week fails to pass. So in theory they can say no deal, 2nd ref, remain and so on.

Awesomeness

Hurrache wrote: »

The Grieve amendment being debated now will be interesting to watch. If passed it means that MPs can direct what the government is to do if the vote next week fails to pass. So in theory they can say no deal, 2nd ref, remain and so on.

But wont they still need to find a majority to vote for one of these options?

If so isn't it most likely they vote to open talks with EU again and the EU tells them no

Strazdas

Awesomeness wrote: »

But wont they still need to find a majority to vote for one of these options?

If so isn't it most likely they vote to open talks with EU again and the EU tells them no

The EU will say "no" to any unravelling of the May deal.

But if the UK went back to them and said it wanted full membership of the Single Market, that would be a whole new ball game.