Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Captain Obvious

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1070288254430253056


And now the moronic ideas are floating again. How about a backstop that isn't a backstop!

Is that not like saying to the EU that we agree to this fundamental term but reserve the right to ignore it?

briany

Enzokk wrote: »

That is most definitely a thread of thought from the UK, that the EU will always get a deal at the last minute. The only problem with this is that it needs to go through the various votes and confirmations in the EU as well so they could agree a deal on the 28th March but there is no way to get it through all the EU processes that it needs to pass. The deadline is not in March but sometime soon so the time for a new deal is now.

Davies et al probably believes that the EU would throw in a quickie extension in order to get the t's crossed and the i's dotted.

LeinsterDub

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Is that not like saying to the EU that we agree to this fundamental term but reserve the right to ignore it?

It's the UK continually negotiating with itself. "Sure who cares what the EU will say we'll make up our minds and tell em how it is!"

briany

Kate Hoey on Sky News flatly accusing the Irish government of using the backstop as a way of achieving a United Ireland.

RobertKK

briany wrote: »

Kate Hoey on Sky News flatly accusing the Irish government of using the backstop as a way of achieving a United Ireland.

I saw that, it is like we are Machiavellian in Ireland and we made them have their stupid referendum with her conspiracy being the end goal.
Kate Hoey is intellectually challenged on the issue of NI, even if she was born there...

Hurrache

briany wrote: »

Kate Hoey on Sky News flatly accusing the Irish government of using the backstop as a way of achieving a United Ireland.

I caught her earlier saying something along the lines that the clause in the withdrawal agreement means that NI and their customs union will be administered by Ireland.

Professor Moriarty

briany wrote: »

Kate Hoey on Sky News flatly accusing the Irish government of using the backstop as a way of achieving a United Ireland.

I take anything Hoey says with a pinch of salt.

Hurrache

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And now the moronic ideas are floating again. How about a backstop that isn't a backstop!

And it pretty much means they want to renege on the Withdrawal Agreement that was just agreed with the EU. So if they add this, they'll essentially be voting on an agreement that's not the one agreed with the EU. It'll be pointless.

LeinsterDub

RobertKK wrote: »

I saw that, it is like we are Machiavellian in Ireland and we made them have their stupid referendum with her conspiracy being the end goal.
Kate Hoey is intellectually challenged on the issue of NI, even if she was born there...

Owe we are far Machiavellian than that . First we secretly ran a bloody sectarian civil war ensuring the IRA never got too powerful so we could unleashed phase 2 the GFA. Now we let that simmer for about 20 years while using that time to force the UK media to print lies about the EU. Then we engineered the referendum ensuring leave won but not by too much and finally the coup de grâce we forced the UK to voluntarily sign up to the backstop !

LuckyLloyd

What the DUP / Kate Hoey say from here to the end of this process is irrelevant. We know their position. So what. You've been outflanked. Unionism is irrelevant. They're now Hard Brexiters as they won't accept this deal (and the DUP probably wanted a Hard Brexit all along). Grand. I know where they are. Much more relevant and interesting discussion is to be had elsewhere.

An Ciarraioch

Most bizarre suggestion is that Labour could petition the Queen, asking her to sack May, and invite Corbyn to attempt to form a government! In fairness, it did happen in Australia.

storker

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It reads like a Tory wet dream. It's as if it was written by Fox - which is quite possible. You know, the ordinary Joe Bloggs who votes for the likes of Mogg and Johnson deserves what he gets.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken

You'd think this had been penned with Brexit in mind...

robinph

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Most bizarre suggestion is that Labour could petition the Queen, asking her to sack May, and invite Corbyn to attempt to form a government! In fairness, it did happen in Australia.

That's not bizarre at all and is essentially what happened when it switched from Brown to Cameron/ Clegg. Brown was still in power for a while though, despite not having parliament behind him, until the coalition was sorted.

storker

Leroy42 wrote: »

I hope this signals that the MPs are finally realising [snip] that the time for unicorns and having all the cake, selling it, eating it and getting all the individual ingredients back in the cupboard is over and they now have to make some actual choices based on actual reality.

Brilliant - I can see myself plagiarising this.

seamus

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Is that not like saying to the EU that we agree to this fundamental term but reserve the right to ignore it?

It's even more toothless than that.

If the backstop comes into play, the UK parliament will be allowed to vote on whether they want to reject reality and substitute it with their own.

briany

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What the DUP / Kate Hoey say from here to the end of this process is irrelevant. We know their position. So what. You've been outflanked. Unionism is irrelevant. They're now Hard Brexiters as they won't accept this deal (and the DUP probably wanted a Hard Brexit all along). Grand. I know where they are. Much more relevant and interesting discussion is to be had elsewhere.

Unionism can't be irrelevant considering that the DUP are in an exalted position within the British government at the moment and hold the balance in certain votes and that Theresa May has said more than once that the UK can never agree to a backstop that would threaten to divide the UK.

NI Unionism might be a backward philosophy and currently counter-productive to NI's interests, but even if there's nothing in the backstop idea that can bring the DUP to the table, we can at least not say anything to push them even further away.

demfad

Anoteh good Piece by Ian Dunt:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/12/05/raab-s-threats-to-ignore-the-grieve-amendment-threatens-cons

Less than a day after being disgraced and in contempt of parliament little seems to have changed. Raab and Leadsom are more or less saying that the Government would not legally have at Act under any direction arising out of the Grieve Amendment. They could ignore parliament and follow towards no deal as Brexit is 'will of people',etc..

PS I predict comeone will make a meme based on Dr Strangelove which features May sitting on the released atomic bomb plunging towards calamity.

J Mysterio

briany wrote: »

Kate Hoey on Sky News flatly accusing the Irish government of using the backstop as a way of achieving a United Ireland.

Quickest route to a United Ireland is not to have a backstop. The backstop gives NI the best of all worlds. Kate Hoey is a disgrace.

10000maniacs

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Most bizarre suggestion is that Labour could petition the Queen, asking her to sack May, and invite Corbyn to attempt to form a government! In fairness, it did happen in Australia.

I find it hard to fathom that Liz would interfere in Australian politics.

joe40

J Mysterio wrote: »

Quickest route to a United Ireland is not to have a backstop. The backstop gives NI the best of all worlds. Kate Hoey is a disgrace.

That's is the irony in this whole shambles. While things in the North are going reasonably well in an economic sense there is no stomach to agitate for a united Ireland from the nationalist community.
The GFA allowed the nationalist community to feel more connected to Ireland and Europe, an invisible border played a pivotal role in this. The status quo basically ensured there would be no united Ireland for at least a generation or two.
May's deal kept that staus quo in place and the unionists are opposing it!!!

robinph

10000maniacs wrote: »

I find it hard to fathom that Liz would interfere in Australian politics.

I think there is a governor who takes on the role of appointing and accepting resignations of the Australian PM on her behalf. It's only a ceremonial position though, just like the Queen and the Irish president for example.

briany

joe40 wrote: »

May's deal kept that staus quo in place and the unionists are opposing it!!!

There'll be a change in their status within the United Kingdom in being in a different economic bloc. That's what the DUP are objecting to. Doesn't matter even if that arrangement would end up as advantageous for NI. It's an ideological matter for the DUP.

No matter where the line would be drawn, whether on the NI border, or in the Irish sea, it's going to upset one side or the other and undermine the peace process. The PP and Brexit just aren't really compatible.

El Weirdo

10000maniacs wrote: »

I find it hard to fathom that Liz would interfere in Australian politics.

robinph wrote: »

I think there is a governor who takes on the role of appointing and accepting resignations of the Australian PM on her behalf. It's only a ceremonial position though, just like the Queen and the Irish president for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis

It's not really clear how much direct involvement the Queen had, if any.

bob mcbob

Folkstonian wrote: »

Predictable antagonistic drivel from the SNP as per usual.

Scotland is in an economic and political union with England because it made formal requests to be so in the early 18th century.

Scotland’s future relationship with England will be (or has been) decided by its people with a clear and unambiguous vote on the matter.

Remarkable parallels exist between Scotland’s relationship vis a vis England, and Britain’s relationship vis a vis Europe.

Both are there by their own volition, both are free to leave to the detriment of their economic growth and future prosperity should they wish to do so.

How incredibly tiresome it is to hear SNP MPs wallow in self pity and bemoan their station week after week as if they remain a far flung colony taken in the age of empire building. Scotland was the empire.

From a personal perspective, with my family home being 35 miles from France and 350 miles from Scotland, a close and productive future relationship with the former is a far more pressing concern.

If (hopefully when) Brexit is reversed, it will be because the British people desired it, not because the SNP were the saviour of England.

It would be a delicious outcome if Britain remained in the EU and resolved to block any future attempts from an independent Scotland to achieve fast tracked access. Petty.. maybe. But sure this is the thread for it!

Yes bloody Scots seeking to get involved in shaping Brexit. That is for their English lords and masters only.

The Scots really need to know their place.

Water John

As a Cockney told me, there is only one crowd they hate more than the Scots and that's the Welsh.

Econ__

briany wrote: »

Unionism can't be irrelevant considering that the DUP are in an exalted position within the British government at the moment and hold the balance in certain votes and that Theresa May has said more than once that the UK can never agree to a backstop that would threaten to divide the UK.

NI Unionism might be a backward philosophy and currently counter-productive to NI's interests, but even if there's nothing in the backstop idea that can bring the DUP to the table, we can at least not say anything to push them even further away.

It’s been clear for many months now that any Brexit settlement is going to need significant cross party support to pass, which effectively makes the DUP/ERG redundant actors in the process as the nature of their vision for Brexit has by far the least support.

People have been surprised at the events of the past couple of days but it was quite easily foreseen if one has paid attention to the reality of the parliamentary arithmetic; No deal off the table & a straight fight between Remain and Softer Brexit.

LuckyLloyd

briany wrote: »

Unionism can't be irrelevant considering that the DUP are in an exalted position within the British government at the moment and hold the balance in certain votes and that Theresa May has said more than once that the UK can never agree to a backstop that would threaten to divide the UK.

NI Unionism might be a backward philosophy and currently counter-productive to NI's interests, but even if there's nothing in the backstop idea that can bring the DUP to the table, we can at least not say anything to push them even further away.

Unionism was relevant for a portion of the process (effectively a calendar year) where they held the threat of something - that being withdrawing support for the present government. They overplayed that leverage to the extent that May went ahead and concluded a deal that broke their red lines. They have now pressed the red button and abandoned their confidence and supply deal. Thus they are now irrelevant, because they have no further injury to cause. They've done what they can do and the process continues without them.

Leroy42

TM should have been working on garnering cross party support for the deal months ago. She instead tried to placate the ERG by talking tough, same with the DUP and at the same time treating any and all others with contempt.

She is now surprised that she is struggling to get any support. SHe has mislead and played politics with this issue from the start and now is demanding that others simply set all that aside and work for what best for UK and not think about her. She has actively made this all about her from the start of her term.

She was going to deliver, she was making the decisions, she was in charge, she was insulted by the EU etc.

LuckyLloyd

Econ__ wrote: »

It’s been clear for many months now that any Brexit settlement is going to need significant cross party support to pass, which effectively makes the DUP/ERG redundant actors in the process as the nature of their vision for Brexit has by far the least support.

People have been surprised at the events of the past couple of days but it was quite easily foreseen if one has paid attention to the reality of the parliamentary arithmetic; No deal off the table & a straight fight between Remain and Softer Brexit.

This is very perceptive imo. May signing the deal she did indicated that the ERG / DUP threat had been weighed up and ultimately ignored. JRM then failing to rally 48 letters to 1922 further exposed their lack of relevance.

They are actually now the easiest part of this whole equation to deal with for anyone trying to resolve the matter knows that they will reject everything that is possible from here. So you pencil them in as a No and move on elsewhere to build your consensus.

Tell me how

Leroy42 wrote: »

TM should have been working on garnering cross party support for the deal months ago. She instead tried to placate the ERG by talking tough, same with the DUP and at the same time treating any and all others with contempt.

She is now surprised that she is struggling to get any support. SHe has mislead and played politics with this issue from the start and now is demanding that others simply set all that aside and work for what best for UK and not think about her. She has actively made this all about her from the start of her term.

She was going to deliver, she was making the decisions, she was in charge, she was insulted by the EU etc.

Anna Soubry as good as said so in her speech in the commons last night.

Theresa looks to be enduring the cruelest end to the role of a PM in many many years. Having to defend an offering which is clear is now indefensible and allowing all opponents (on both sides of the hose) to ridicule and taunt her leadership through 5 days of debates before the inevitable.

Surely her resignation is on the cars with the only thing to be confirmed is the timing.