Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

CPTM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There was no news today Brexit wise imo. What happened that changed anything? Plenty of Irish news.

Am I losing track of days? Wasn't the full legal advice published by the government today?

Hurrache

The overriding opinion in Ireland is that none of what was in the document was news really, it was already known for the most part.

Capt'n Midnight

briany wrote: »

Davies et al probably believes that the EU would throw in a quickie extension in order to get the t's crossed and the i's dotted.

Only if that's all that was left to do, and only if both sides were converging.

And it would be for minutiae not for substantive issues like the backstop.

And don't forget that this Deal isn't the FTA it's just a transition with an endpoint unless everyone agrees to extend it.

Enzokk

Leroy42 wrote: »

TM should have been working on garnering cross party support for the deal months ago. She instead tried to placate the ERG by talking tough, same with the DUP and at the same time treating any and all others with contempt.

She is now surprised that she is struggling to get any support. SHe has mislead and played politics with this issue from the start and now is demanding that others simply set all that aside and work for what best for UK and not think about her. She has actively made this all about her from the start of her term.

She was going to deliver, she was making the decisions, she was in charge, she was insulted by the EU etc.

Agreed, it is strange that she is now calling for compromise and for everyone to work together when she has totally ignored the 48% from the start. There is a lot of things she should have done, she should have worked with the Remainers from day one but she insisted on her red lines. She also kept disparaging those same Remainers and has been doing the same to EU citizens in the UK by referring to them as queue jumpers just recently. She truly is the second worst PM in history, luckily for her David Cameron beats her as he started this mess.

She is also reaping what she sowed when she screwed over Dominic Grieve and didn't hold up to her word on what she told him would happen. Now he will not drop his amendment as he did last time. Terrible person (possibly racist), terrible Home Secretary and a terrible PM.

Mr.Nice Guy

I'm amazed Westminster is still negotiating with itself. I thought this from the BBC's Katya Adler summed it up well...

https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1070258300212658176

I'm now starting to wonder if the facts will ever be taken up.

10000maniacs

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm amazed Westminster is still negotiating with itself. I thought this from the BBC's Katya Adler summed it up well...
.

Even the BBC doesn't buy their BS anymore.
A debate between a remainer Prime Minister pretending to be a brexiteer and a brexiteer Labour leader pretending to be a remainer. Yeah right.

Charles Babbage

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm now starting to wonder if the facts will ever be taken up.

The facts are not entirely suitable.

fash

10000maniacs wrote: »

Even the BBC doesn't buy their BS anymore.
A debate between a remainer Prime Minister pretending to be a brexiteer and a brexiteer Labour leader pretending to be a remainer. Yeah right.

She certainly was not a remainer: she is primarily an agnostic following whatever way the wind is blowing, but with a racist streak who personally dislikes FOM and European court (ECHR/ECJ) "interference". No more.

RobMc59

The unfolding situation at the HoC has given the Scottish MPs an opportunity to rip into a beleaguered TM ,which is being viewed in many countries-have SF missed a golden opportunity to partake in what is arguably a once in a lifetime event?

zapitastas

RobMc59 wrote: »

The unfolding situation at the HoC has given the Scottish MPs an opportunity to rip into a beleaguered TM ,which is being viewed in many countries-have SF missed a golden opportunity to partake in what is arguably a once in a lifetime event?

It is not Sinn Fein's place to ride in to rescue the British from themselves. As a party who exist on the basis that the British should have no say in Irish affairs it would be a little hypocritical to then interfere in British affairs. Added to that their presence would cause further chaos in an already chaotic situation.

RobMc59

zapitastas wrote: »

It is not Sinn Fein's place to ride in to rescue the British from themselves. As a party who exist on the basis that the British should have no say in Irish affairs it would be a little hypocritical to then interfere in British affairs. Added to that their presence would cause further chaos in an already chaotic situation.

I didn’t suggest they should rescue the British.I asked if they have missed an opportunity in the current situation.

Peregrinus

RobMc59 wrote: »

I didn’t suggest they should rescue the British.I asked if they have missed an opportunity in the current situation.

An opportunity to do what?

Seth Brundle

zapitastas wrote: »

It is not Sinn Fein's place to ride in to rescue the British from themselves. As a party who exist on the basis that the British should have no say in Irish affairs it would be a little hypocritical to then interfere in British affairs. Added to that their presence would cause further chaos in an already chaotic situation.

So why then do they stand in "foreign" elections?
I don't want this thread to become a SF bashing thread but SF by being absent are depriving NI people from having their voices heard. Stand down from their MP seats and let someone who will actually do the job take it

zapitastas

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So why then do they stand in "foreign" elections?
I don't want this thread to become a SF bashing thread but SF by being absent are depriving NI people from having their voices heard. Stand down from their MP seats and let someone who will actually do the job take it

You must not be very familiar with the history of abstention in this country. Reaches all the way back to the young irelanders in the 19th century. They stand in elections held in their own country but to a foreign parliment. Anyone who cast a vote for SF could hardly say they are surprised that they then didn't take their seats in Westminster. Not taking the seats is kind of the whole point in abstentionist policy

Peregrinus

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So why then do they stand in "foreign" elections?
I don't want this thread to become a SF bashing thread but SF by being absent are depriving NI people from having their voices heard. Stand down from their MP seats and let someone who will actually do the job take it

It's not Sinn Fein that prevents other candidates from representing the constituency; it's the voters. Sinn Fein can only take the seat in, in fact, they win the election. If Sinn Fein candidates offer themselves on an abstentionist position and are elected on that basis, I don't see any argument for saying that they should stand down.

Enzokk

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So why then do they stand in "foreign" elections?
I don't want this thread to become a SF bashing thread but SF by being absent are depriving NI people from having their voices heard. Stand down from their MP seats and let someone who will actually do the job take it

I think this is one of those rare situations where their decision makes absolute sense if you look at the reason and history of it, but right now at this moment they could have offered so much more to their voters and the people of NI.

I am not advocating that they should go to the HoC, just that in this moment of time it is a shame that NI has no representation other than the DUP.

Seth Brundle

zapitastas wrote: »

You must not be very familiar with the history of abstention in this country. Reaches all the way back to the young irelanders in the 19th century. They stand in elections held in their own country but to a foreign parliment. Anyone who cast a vote for SF could hardly say they are surprised that they then didn't take their seats in Westminster. Not taking the seats is kind of the whole point in abstentionist policy

My point was that if they won't interfere in a foreign parliament as they claim then why stand in their elections?
It's for another thread though.

RobMc59

Peregrinus wrote: »

An opportunity to do what?

As it says in my post-an opportunity to rip into TM at a time events in the HoC are headline news.

murphaph

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So why then do they stand in "foreign" elections?
I don't want this thread to become a SF bashing thread but SF by being absent are depriving NI people from having their voices heard. Stand down from their MP seats and let someone who will actually do the job take it

I don't like SF but they have been clear on abstentionism for a hundred years. The people still vote for them knowing this, which is indeed not very nice for SF MP's constituents who do not vote for them but that's the way it is.

SF riding into the HoC at this time would bring nothing but chaos and might indeed make others reconsider their voting intentions.

Peregrinus

RobMc59 wrote: »

As it says in my post-an opportunity to rip into TM at a time events in the HoC are headline news.

You don't have to take a seat in the House of Commons to criticise the Tory Brexit. Nicola Sturgeon seems to manage just fine.

But, more to the point, Sinn Fein's reason for existing is not really to rip into Teresa May, or indeed to take any role in British politics. From SF's point of view, taking seats in the House of Commons (and swearing an oath of allegiance to the crown!) in order to rip into Teresa May would be compromising a central and enduring political principle for the sake of a short-term opportunity to garner some attention in relation to a matter than they are not terribly interested in.

You don't have to agree with Sinn Fein's abstentionism to see that, on its own terms, it make no sense whatsoever for Sinn Fein to abandon abstentionism in order to secure a higher profile for their criticism of May.

cml387

Teresa May on BBC Today at the moment.
Twice offered the opportunity to deny she is going to delay the vote on Tuesday she skirted the question.

Seth Brundle

murphaph wrote: »

SF riding into the HoC at this time would bring nothing but chaos and might indeed make others reconsider their voting intentions.

I didn't suggest that they should turn up to HoC.

Peregrinus

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I didn't suggest that they should turn up to HoC.

No, you suggested that they shouldn't stand in elections if they weren't going to take their seats.

But that would deprive voters of voting for candidates who reject the legitimacy of British rule in Ireland - an opportunity which, in a number of constituencies, a plurality of voters choose in preference to voting for a candidate who will take the seat.

SF see value in standing for election as a mechanims for registering their rejection of British rule, and for demonstrating popular support for that rejection. And there clearly is a fair amount of popular support, given the degree of electoral success they enjoy.

LeinsterDub

zapitastas wrote: »

It is not Sinn Fein's place to ride in to rescue the British from themselves. As a party who exist on the basis that the British should have no say in Irish affairs it would be a little hypocritical to then interfere in British affairs. Added to that their presence would cause further chaos in an already chaotic situation.

And to add their votes wouldn't make any difference.

zapitastas

Seth Brundle wrote: »

My point was that if they won't interfere in a foreign parliament as they claim then why stand in their elections?
It's for another thread though.

Is the same question you could ask of the myriad of Irish parlimentarians since the 19th century that held that position. It was a valid political position to take then as it is now.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

I didn’t suggest they should rescue the British.I asked if they have missed an opportunity in the current situation.

Apart from standing on a platform of abstentionism, Sinn Féin's major political ambition is a United Ireland. The DUP-Tories are doing a great job of making that a more likely likelihood than ever before, so SF have nothing more to gain.

The very first woman elected to Westminster was the SF candidate, Countess Markievicz, who never took her seat. That could also have been considered a missed opportunity in the situation at the time, but it didn't diminish her other contributions to the history of Ireland.

lawred2

RobMc59 wrote: »

The unfolding situation at the HoC has given the Scottish MPs an opportunity to rip into a beleaguered TM ,which is being viewed in many countries-have SF missed a golden opportunity to partake in what is arguably a once in a lifetime event?

Sinn Fein do not partake in Westminster politics. The end.

Seth Brundle

lawred2 wrote: »

Sinn Fein do not partake in Westminster politics. The end.

They do. They stand in its elections

cml387

lawred2 wrote: »

Sinn Fein do not partake in Westminster politics. The end.

Agreed, this is a tired argument which drags the thread off topic.

lawred2

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They do. They stand in its elections

Sigh.