Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Hurrache

Deleted User wrote: »

Daily Telegraph (majority of article behind paywall) getting outraged now about people going out and actually enjoying themselves it seems. I've had delicious Trappist beer at that place myself.......

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/18/merkel-macron-spent-time-pub-listening-mays-brexit-overtures/

The small bit you can read is hilarious

If Theresa May wanted proof she is running out of friends in Europe, she need only have ventured to the Roy d’Espagne brasserie in Brussels late last night.

For while the Prime Minister dined alone after another summit mauling, Angela Merkel, Emmanuel Macron and the rest of their European chums were drinking the night away and enjoying the city's famous beers.

Europe’s two most powerful leaders stayed out drinking on an unseasonably balmy Brussels night until just after 1am - longer than they afforded May's Brexit speech earlier that evening.

BonnieSituation

Lemming wrote: »

Anyone got a non-bbc link as it keeps trying to prompt me to sign up in order to listen to it?

I downloaded the BBC radio player yesterday. It's a dream of an app. Thoroughly recommended.

Sam Russell

Bob24 wrote: »

So yeah sorry, I was a bit too liberal with interchanging CTA and borderless ireland as the former is a key intreument to deliver the later.

Having said that, the point remains that on the first day of a no-deal Brexit the pressure would be on the Republic (and not on the UK) to be the first one to introduce border checks, as the EU would be telling us that as a common market member we can’t not check vehicles and people crossing our border and potentially importing goods into the single market.

And even going back to the CTA, it is very possible that some of our commitements as an EU member would lead us to be in breach with the CTA. For exemple if for whatever reason there was a decision to ban some British citizens from the EU even that that person has done nothing wrong in the UK or Ireland, could we not be in a situation whereby we have to prevent that British citizen from crossing our border, which would question our commitment to the free movement of people between the UK and Ireland?

So with a no-deal we could be in an ackward position whereby we are forced to chose between being the ones effectively ending borderless Ireland or breaking our EU commitments.

This is what I think is underestimated. As I mentioned before the Republic of Ireland is essentially planning to remain in two international agreements (one with the EU, another with the UK) which might become mutually exclusive.

We can’t behave as if this potential contradiction has nothing to do with us and it is all the fault or the UK or the EU (both have their own legitimate reasons not to be wishing to compromise, on the territorial unity of the UK, and the integrity of the single market).

We can keep going with the current wishful thinking that the EU will necessarily defend our interest when things go wild and the UK will eventually change its policy, and if we are lucky it might happen.

But it’s far from guaranteed and we have to wonder if we are ok with a potential outcome whereby we are forced by the EU and the UK (none being on our side or against us, and each just defending their interest) to take our responsability and be the ones to choose between reintroducing a border or breaching the the single market. And if we are not ready for that choice, aren’t we sleepwalking into it with the current direction things are heading?

The CTA applies to people. Most people in Ireland (not all) have the right to travel to the UK, and most people in the UK (not all) have the right to travel to Ireland. The border will not affect 'most' people. Those who are not in the 'most' category are very few indeed. Dublin Airport already does 100% passport checks on people arriving from everywhere.

The UK and Ireland operate a very close coupled immigration and visa regime, that will continue after Brexit. Neither state in in Schengen,

If there is a crash out Brexit, then the chaos at Dover/Calais will take the majority of that attention, with queues up as far as the M25. A few mobile customs checks will do our side of the border for the first few weeks. After that, who knows?

If the planes are still on the ground, then that will take more of the attention. It will be chaotic.

road_high

lawred2 wrote: »

Why don't they just stay in the bloody EU ffs

There is nothing whatsoever being gained by the UK in all this.

It's a hugely damaging charade. There isn't anyhting tangible to be gained, it's all purely aspirational ideological stuff. I could never imagine the Germans by comparison being so unpragmtic especially when their economy is on the line.

Bob24

Sam Russell wrote: »

The CTA applies to people. Most people in Ireland (not all) have the right to travel to the UK, and most people in the UK (not all) have the right to travel to Ireland. The border will not affect 'most' people. Those who are not in the 'most' category are very few indeed. Dublin Airport already does 100% passport checks on people arriving from everywhere.

The UK and Ireland operate a very close coupled immigration and visa regime, that will continue after Brexit. Neither state in in Schengen,

If there is a crash out Brexit, then the chaos at Dover/Calais will take the majority of that attention, with queues up as far as the M25. A few mobile customs checks will do our side of the border for the first few weeks. After that, who knows?

If the planes are still on the ground, then that will take more of the attention. It will be chaotic.

We are still talking about reinstating a border on our island, and even if the purpose is mainly to control goods it would also impact individuals (otherwise the Irish border wouldn’t be such an issue for Brexit).


So the question I am asking is that in a no-deal scenario, on Brexit day the EC will be on the phone with the Irish government to confirm those border checks are in place to ensure the integrity of the single market.

If/when that happens (which is a real possibility), are Varadkar and our politicians ready to order our customs authorities and police forces to reintroduce border checks on this island* or to defy the EU and not control our entry points to the single market? None of those options are great but in those circumstances we would have no choice but to pick one of them.

* meaning carrying the responsability for deciding/announcing that the ROI is making a sovereign decision to put an end to the concept of borderless Ireland.

trellheim

Dublin Airport already does 100% passport checks on people arriving from everywhere.

Not correct. A passport is not required for internal flights or CTA nationals arriving from a CTA destination.

For example, no direct checks are carried out on the Enterprise train arriving into Connolly station.

Bob24

trellheim wrote: »

Not correct. A passport is not required for internal flights or CTA nationals arriving from a CTA destination.

For example, no direct checks are carried out on the Enterprise train arriving into Connolly station.

The poster was referring to Dublin Airport though. As far as I know it is correct that we are ID checking passengers coming from the CTA there (for exemple someone arriving from London).

But the contentious issue as far as Brexit is concerned is our land border with the UK.

Winters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUPrxzNB66c

Some good interviews, especially Ken Clarke

charlie14

Case of mad cow disease just reported in Scotland.
Lucky for both us and NI farmers that with a soft Brexit exit animal controls remain.
A hard Brexit and the DUP would most likely want them gone if you follow their logic of wishing to share in any misery that may befall their glorious Union.

charlie14

Bob24 wrote: »

We are still talking about reinstating a border on our island, and even if the purpose is mainly to control goods it would also impact individuals (otherwise the Irish border wouldn’t be such an issue for Brexit).


So the question I am asking is that in a no-deal scenario, on Brexit day the EC will be on the phone with the Irish government to confirm those border checks are in place to ensure the integrity of the single market.

If/when that happens (which is a real possibility), are Varadkar and our politicians ready to order our customs authorities and police forces to reintroduce border checks on this island* or to defy the EU and not control our entry points to the single market? None of those options are great but in those circumstances we would have no choice but to pick one of them.

* meaning carrying the responsability for deciding/announcing that the ROI is making a sovereign decision to put an end to the concept of borderless Ireland.

As a member state I cannot see how we could refuse to if we did not wish to be treated as a non member state in regards to our exports too other member states

road_high

trellheim wrote: »

Dublin Airport already does 100% passport checks on people arriving from everywhere.

 Not correct.   A passport is not required for internal flights or CTA nationals arriving from a CTA destination.

For example,  no direct checks are carried out on the Enterprise train arriving into Connolly station.

Ryanair insist on a passport regardless so that's probably where the conusion lies. Aer Lingus i think it's photo ID only.

Bob24

charlie14 wrote: »

As a member state I cannot see how we could refuse to if we did not wish to be treated as a non member state in regards to our exports too other member states

Yes exactly, so we would effectively be forced to make a mutually exclusive choice between the single market and a borderless Ireland. But would any of our politician accept to hold the responsibility for being the one who put an end to borderless Ireland? (by being the one who gave the order to our customs/police forces to re-establish border checks).

megatron989

I would hold the view on the border that our side didn't choose to end the cta nor will they choose to erect checks. The UK chose that, they forced our side to act. Their is no choice other than to leave and join the UK in the fairy land of milk and honey. Personally I'd rather have what must be done, done. And leave the blame where it will belong. Number 10.

Sam Russell

road_high wrote: »

Ryanair insist on a passport regardless so that's probably where the confusion lies. Aer Lingus i think it's photo ID only.

Actually, the immigration control is applied to all passengers at Dublin Airport - even if you are arriving from Shannon, Cork or Kerry. It requires a passport, or other acceptable ID, such as an Irish driving licence. To enter the UK from Ireland, passengers are passed through gates that are for passengers from Ireland and the Channel Islands where you could be asked for your boarding card to show that you arrived on an appropriate flight.

There are checks on cross border traffic, but it is low key and sporadic, and applied to those who look like they are suspicious (because of their appearance).

In the event of a crash out, the Irish border would be way down the priorities - Dover/Calais, Dublin, Rosslare, then mobile patrols around Dundalk.

AlmightyCushion

Sam Russell wrote: »

Actually, the immigration control is applied to all passengers at Dublin Airport - even if you are arriving from Shannon, Cork or Kerry. It requires a passport, or other acceptable ID, such as an Irish driving licence. To enter the UK from Ireland, passengers are passed through gates that are for passengers from Ireland and the Channel Islands where you could be asked for your boarding card to show that you arrived on an appropriate flight.

There are checks on cross border traffic, but it is low key and sporadic, and applied to those who look like they are suspicious (because of their appearance).

In the event of a crash out, the Irish border would be way down the priorities - Dover/Calais, Dublin, Rosslare, then mobile patrols around Dundalk.

Well, I know someone who was able to fly here on a work ID from the UK using aer lingus. Aer lingus even say it on their website.

https://www.aerlingus.com/travel-information/passports-and-visas/travel-to-from-britain/

Acceptable Identification
If you’re a citizen of Ireland and/or Britain, you need to carry some form of official photo identification in order to be able to fly with us.

Note: To travel between Ireland and Britain with photo identification other than a passport, you must have been born in Ireland or the U.K. and also be a citizen of either country.

The following forms of photo identification are acceptable once they are in date:

Valid passport
Driver’s licence with photo
International student card
National ID card/government issued photo ID cards
Health insurance cards with photo/social security cards with photo
Bus pass with photo
Work ID with photo

Calina

road_high wrote: »

trellheim wrote: »

Dublin Airport already does 100% passport checks on people arriving from everywhere.

 Not correct.   A passport is not required for internal flights or CTA nationals arriving from a CTA destination.

For example,  no direct checks are carried out on the Enterprise train arriving into Connolly station.

Ryanair insist on a passport regardless so that's probably where the conusion lies. Aer Lingus i think it's photo ID only.

Those are not border checks. It used to be the case a boarding pass from a recently landed cta flight was adequate to clear passport control.

charlie14

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes exactly, so we would effectively be forced to make a mutually exclusive choice between the single market and a borderless Ireland. But would any of our politician accept to hold the responsibility for being the one who put an end to borderless Ireland? (by being the one who gave the order to our customs/police forces to re-establish border checks).

If because of a hard Brexit we are bordering either land or sea a country that is not an EU member state, either land or sea, then it would have nothing to do with being forced to do anything. It would be simply adhering to the rules and regulation of a union we freely agreed to become a member off.

Junkyard Tom

Could we move the border back to hardened air/sea exit points where anything from the north/Britain heading for the EU gets queued for paperwork and/or inspection?

Bob24

charlie14 wrote: »

If because of a hard Brexit we are bordering either land or sea a country that is not an EU member state, either land or sea, then it would have nothing to do with being forced to do anything. It would be simply adhering to the rules and regulation of a union we freely agreed to become a member off.

We want two international agreements: one with the EU to be a member state and one with the UK to not have a formal border. If being part of one agreement means breaching the other deal, that is a choice we have to make. So choosing to remain in the EU single market would also be choosing to reintroduce a border on the island. And choosing to keep a borderless ireland would be choosing to leave the single market.

Kermit.de.frog

Brexit seems to have turned Irish politics on it's head.

Fine Gael exhibiting Nationalist credentials no one knew they had that make even Sinn Fein blush and the Irish Times now seems like a daily publication of the Republican "War News" from the 70's.

Bizarre.

nc6000

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Could we move the border back to hardened air/sea exit points where anything from the north/Britain heading for the EU gets queued for paperwork and/or inspection?

I believe the DUP won't agree to that.

Imreoir2

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Brexit seems to have turned Irish politics on it's head.

Fine Gael exhibiting Nationalist credentials no one knew they had that make even Sinn Fein blush and the Irish Times now seems like a daily publication of the Republican "War News" from the 70's.

Bizarre.

I don't prticulrly like FG because of their right wing economic policies, but the idea that they are a "West Brit" party has always been essentially baseless. They grew out of War of Independance era Sinn Féin just like FF and modern day SF. They have always been a nationalist party even if they did not feel the need to beat the drum through the years.

You have a point about the Irish Times though. They were an explicitly unionist paper once upon a time.

Junkyard Tom

nc6000 wrote: »

I believe the DUP won't agree to that.

It wouldn't be any of their business.

blackcard

Apologies as I imagine this has been answered somewhere in this thread. What happens if there is a soft brexit and as part of that there is a border in the Irish sea. Is it known if there would be tariffs on Irish Exports to the UK or would that be decided as part of the future relationship between the EU/UK? Is it likely that there would be a FTA between between the EU/UK. Would there be delays at ports and airports? What would be the economic implications for Ireland?

An Ciarraioch

blackcard wrote: »

Apologies as I imagine this has been answered somewhere in this thread. What happens if there is a soft brexit and as part of that there is a border in the Irish sea. Is it known if there would be tariffs on Irish Exports to the UK or would that be decided as part of the future relationship between the EU/UK? Is it likely that there would be a FTA between between the EU/UK. Would there be delays at ports and airports? What would be the economic implications for Ireland?

A soft Brexit would require the whole UK to at least remain in the Customs Union, so no tariffs either West-East or East-West, but potential regulatory checks at ports and airports.

Nody

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Could we move the border back to hardened air/sea exit points where anything from the north/Britain heading for the EU gets queued for paperwork and/or inspection?

Think of a truck you've seen in the last week; can you tell if that got goods coming from NI or UK? Of course not which means every truck leaving Ireland would need to be checked for everything on every item. In short you might as well ask Ireland to leave EU because that's what it would mean in practice.

flutered

Sam Russell wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

So yeah sorry, I was a bit too liberal with interchanging CTA and borderless ireland as the former is a key intreument to deliver the later.

Having said that, the point remains that on the first day of a no-deal Brexit the pressure would be on the Republic (and not on the UK) to be the first one to introduce border checks, as the EU would be telling us that as a common market member we can’t not check vehicles and people crossing our border and potentially importing goods into the single market.  

And even going back to the CTA, it is very possible that some of our commitements as an EU member would lead us to be in breach with the CTA. For exemple if for whatever reason there was a decision to ban some British citizens from the EU even that that person has done nothing wrong in the UK or Ireland, could we not be in a situation whereby we have to prevent that British citizen from crossing our border, which would question our commitment to the free movement of people between the UK and Ireland?

So with a no-deal we could be in an ackward position whereby we are forced to chose between being the ones effectively ending borderless Ireland or breaking our EU commitments.

This is what I think is underestimated. As I mentioned before the Republic of Ireland is essentially planning to remain in two international agreements (one with the EU, another with the UK) which might become mutually exclusive.

We can’t behave as if this potential contradiction has nothing to do with us and it is all the fault or the UK or the EU (both have their own legitimate reasons not to be wishing to compromise, on the territorial unity of the UK, and the integrity of the single market).

We can keep going with the current wishful thinking that the EU will necessarily defend our interest when things go wild and the UK will eventually change its policy, and if we are lucky it might happen.

But it’s far from guaranteed and we have to wonder if we are ok with a potential outcome whereby we are forced by the EU and the UK (none being on our side or against us, and each just defending their interest) to take our responsability and be the ones to choose between reintroducing a border or breaching the the single market. And if we are not ready for that choice, aren’t we sleepwalking into it with the current direction things are heading?

The CTA applies to people.  Most people in Ireland (not all) have the right to travel to the UK, and most people in the UK (not all) have the right to travel to Ireland.  The border will not affect 'most' people.  Those who are not in the 'most' category are very few indeed.  Dublin Airport already does 100% passport checks on people arriving from everywhere.

The UK and Ireland operate a very close coupled immigration and visa regime, that will continue after Brexit.  Neither state in in Schengen,

If there is a crash out Brexit, then the chaos at Dover/Calais will take the majority of that attention, with queues up as far as the M25.  A few mobile customs checks will do our side of the border for the first few weeks.  After that, who knows?  

If the planes are still on the ground, then that will take more of the attention.  It will be chaotic.

it will be chaotic, the very thing devious people need to deal in devious things, all the attention is elsewhere

flutered

Sam Russell wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

So yeah sorry, I was a bit too liberal with interchanging CTA and borderless ireland as the former is a key intreument to deliver the later.

Having said that, the point remains that on the first day of a no-deal Brexit the pressure would be on the Republic (and not on the UK) to be the first one to introduce border checks, as the EU would be telling us that as a common market member we can’t not check vehicles and people crossing our border and potentially importing goods into the single market.  

And even going back to the CTA, it is very possible that some of our commitements as an EU member would lead us to be in breach with the CTA. For exemple if for whatever reason there was a decision to ban some British citizens from the EU even that that person has done nothing wrong in the UK or Ireland, could we not be in a situation whereby we have to prevent that British citizen from crossing our border, which would question our commitment to the free movement of people between the UK and Ireland?

So with a no-deal we could be in an ackward position whereby we are forced to chose between being the ones effectively ending borderless Ireland or breaking our EU commitments.

This is what I think is underestimated. As I mentioned before the Republic of Ireland is essentially planning to remain in two international agreements (one with the EU, another with the UK) which might become mutually exclusive.

We can’t behave as if this potential contradiction has nothing to do with us and it is all the fault or the UK or the EU (both have their own legitimate reasons not to be wishing to compromise, on the territorial unity of the UK, and the integrity of the single market).

We can keep going with the current wishful thinking that the EU will necessarily defend our interest when things go wild and the UK will eventually change its policy, and if we are lucky it might happen.

But it’s far from guaranteed and we have to wonder if we are ok with a potential outcome whereby we are forced by the EU and the UK (none being on our side or against us, and each just defending their interest) to take our responsability and be the ones to choose between reintroducing a border or breaching the the single market. And if we are not ready for that choice, aren’t we sleepwalking into it with the current direction things are heading?

The CTA applies to people.  Most people in Ireland (not all) have the right to travel to the UK, and most people in the UK (not all) have the right to travel to Ireland.  The border will not affect 'most' people.  Those who are not in the 'most' category are very few indeed.  Dublin Airport already does 100% passport checks on people arriving from everywhere.

The UK and Ireland operate a very close coupled immigration and visa regime, that will continue after Brexit.  Neither state in in Schengen,

If there is a crash out Brexit, then the chaos at Dover/Calais will take the majority of that attention, with queues up as far as the M25.  A few mobile customs checks will do our side of the border for the first few weeks.  After that, who knows?  

If the planes are still on the ground, then that will take more of the attention.  It will be chaotic.

it will be chaotic, the very thing devious people need to deal in devious things, all the attention is elsewhere

Bob24 wrote: »

charlie14 wrote: »

As a member state I cannot see how we could refuse to if we did not wish to be treated as a non member state in regards to our exports too other member states

Yes exactly, so we would effectively be forced to make a mutually exclusive choice between the single market and a borderless Ireland. But would any of our politician accept to hold the responsibility for being the one who put an end to borderless Ireland? (by being the one who gave the order to our customs/police forces to re-establish border checks).

on other fourms the thinking is, the uk owns it, therefore they put up the hard border, wto says so

Imreoir2

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1052918890697814017

flutered

lawred2 wrote: »

Why don't they just stay in the bloody EU ffs

There is nothing whatsoever being gained by the UK in all this.

control of their borders, making their own laws, etc, etc all the strawman arguements you could wish for