Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

hill16bhoy · 10-12-2018 9:32pm

Douglas Thoughtless Headache wrote: »

So a GE and referendum on EU membership are the same thing? Ooo..k.

The only country to leave the EU, after more than 40yrs, creating such upheaval and debate perhaps would give you the slightest clue as it it's significance, perchance.

I asked you did you view the 2017 UK General Election as undemocratic.

I also asked you whether you viewed the 2016 EU membership referendum as undemocratic, given that there had already been one previously.

You didn't answer either question.

An Claidheamh · 10-12-2018 9:34pm

devnull wrote: »

Theresa May is going to do a tour of European Capitals to try and get them to change their minds.

Does she still not get the concept of what the EU is and how it is a union and not just a place where she can go from country to country to try and place pressure on the EU.

What does she want them to change?

Britain decided this.

There, I've saved her the trip.

hill16bhoy · 10-12-2018 9:35pm

road_high wrote: »

So Tessie is off to Holland in the morning for more begging. How likely are the EU chiefs to give them even more concessions?

If she's looking for a bunch of tulips she should have looked behind her to where the ERG members sit in parliament.

4068ac1elhodqr · 10-12-2018 9:38pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

I asked you did you view the 2017 UK General Election as undemocratic.

I also asked you whether you viewed the 2016 EU membership referendum as undemocratic, given that there had already been one previously.

You didn't answer either question.

I asked you whether you consider both to be of equal comparable status. (I.e. there is no need for anyone to anwser silly non-comparable questions).

You didn't answer this question.

Which is faster: something going very fast, or something that isn't going slow?

Water John · 10-12-2018 9:39pm

Nick Robinson giving Tory Cabinet Minister an easy ride but cutting the Labour contributor, BBC hasn't changed even on this disastrous day.

hill16bhoy · 10-12-2018 9:47pm

Douglas Thoughtless Headache wrote: »

I asked you whether you consider both to be of equal comparable status. (I.e. there is no need for anyone to anwser silly non-comparable questions).

You didn't answer this question.

Which is faster: something going very fast, or something that isn't going slow?

The exact same logic applies to both.

The only question is whether they were democratic. They were. As would be another referendum.

Earlier on you talked about general elections "within a normal cycle" being democratic.

Loads of general elections have taken place outside of a "normal cycle", both here and in the UK.

In the UK's case, 1951 (20 months after the previous one) 1966 (17 months), October 1974 (8 months) and 2017 (25 months) all took place outside the "normal cycle".

We had three general elections in 20 months here in 1981/82.

Presumably you feel all those elections were undemocratic.

They weren't.

Hurrache · 10-12-2018 9:47pm

Water John wrote: »

Nick Robinson giving Tory Cabinet Minister an easy ride but cutting the Labour contributor, BBC hasn't changed even on this disastrous day.

You watching Brexit, What Next? on BBC? A 2 minute piece on 6.1 News with Tony Connolly has more bite, insight and analysis.

Call me Al · 10-12-2018 9:50pm

Katya Adler on BBC just now reporting from (i think) Brussels. Quite blunt in her assessment and observations. The EU want a comprehensive trade deal and to that end the EU 27 leaders will come together this weekend to see what way they can do or say reassure to UK govt about. But the UK government cannot expect the EU to favour a leaving nation over an existing member i.e. Ireland.

4068ac1elhodqr · 10-12-2018 9:53pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

The only question is whether they were democratic. .

Zzzz, yes, both democratic, so then respect the decision maybe?

The actual question was regarding the time periods for difference election classifications and ultimately scales of mass significance.

By your logic, every country in the EU should have a membership ref vote roughly every 2yrs. Messy times I forsee, sure you'd wreck the place.

Not being funny, but maybe have a nice cup of coco and a rest, else get to work on the (now overdue) 2014 Scotish Inde Ref, thanks kindly.

funkey_monkey · 10-12-2018 9:57pm

Does anyone thing NI will get its own referendum on remaining in the custom Union?

Tony Connelly tweeted about a reunification vote, but I think a separate deal for us, similar to what was originally proposed until DUP panicked last December might be revisited.

Also, C4 news stated that the cost of NI annually was less that cost of EU membership. I've never heard that one before.

A Dub in Glasgo · 10-12-2018 9:59pm

badtoro wrote: »

Just on Scotland, how may they get another indy ref if they wish for one? Are there time limits from the last or other conditions?

The Scottish Parliament have already voted to allow the First Minister to request one but the Tories have stated they will not allow to take place (Labour have said the same)

Beechwoodspark · 10-12-2018 10:01pm

The hard brexiteers will not be satisfied until they cause themselves and their country deep harm and then of course it will be “Brussels” fault.

road_high · 10-12-2018 10:05pm

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Also, C4 news stated that the cost of NI annually was less that cost of EU membership. I've never heard that one before.

But EU membership is good value as you get huge market access and free trade in return etc etc.With the dead weight that is NI all you get an is a welfare black hole and ungrateful meddling from Arlene and co

Professor Moriarty · 10-12-2018 10:06pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

The hard brexiteers will not be satisfied until they cause themselves and their country deep harm and then of course it will be “Brussels” fault.

Or Ireland's.

MarkHenderson · 10-12-2018 10:08pm

Getting so bored of this now. The people have voted for Brexit. Just get on with it.

What an absolute disaster May has been.

tuxy · 10-12-2018 10:09pm

MarkHenderson wrote: »

Getting so bored of this now. The people have voted for Brexit. Just get on with it.

What an absolute disaster May has been.

What kind of brexit did they vote for?

Professor Moriarty · 10-12-2018 10:10pm

road_high wrote: »

But EU membership is good value as you get huge market access and free trade in return etc etc.With the dead weight that is NI all you get an is a welfare black hole and ungrateful meddling from Arlene and co

Get with the program. Britain must unshackle itself from the EU to ensure a glorious economic future full of FTAs all over the world and stuff.

Anthracite · 10-12-2018 10:15pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The Scottish Parliament have already voted to allow the First Minister to request one but the Tories have stated they will not allow to take place (Labour have said the same)

Nothing says 'democracy' like denying people the right to vote on self-determination.

dr.fuzzenstein · 10-12-2018 10:17pm

MarkHenderson wrote: »

Getting so bored of this now. The people have voted for Brexit. Just get on with it.

What an absolute disaster May has been.

Welcome back! I won't bother even learning your name.

4068ac1elhodqr · 10-12-2018 10:21pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The Scottish Parliament have already voted to allow the First Minister to request one but the Tories have stated they will not allow to take place (Labour have said the same)

That explains the embargo on the movie with Mel Gibson, sure it hasn't been broadcast on Channel4 since circa 2015.

Labour will say whatever suits the moment, when they win next year, it'll be free baloons, puppies and whatever else people ask for, until the money pot runs slightly dry.

Anthracite · 10-12-2018 10:27pm

An Claidheamh wrote: »

"Southern Irish government?"

Indeed. A phrase you could live your whole life here without hearing unless listening to British media.

hill16bhoy · 10-12-2018 10:29pm

Douglas Thoughtless Headache wrote: »

Zzzz, yes, both democratic, so then respect the decision maybe?

The actual question was regarding the time periods for difference election classifications and ultimately scales of mass significance.

By your logic, every country in the EU should have a membership ref vote roughly every 2yrs. Messy times I forsee, sure you'd wreck the place.

Not being funny, but maybe have a nice cup of coco and a rest, else get to work on the (now overdue) 2014 Scotish Inde Ref, thanks kindly.

No. I didn't say the bolded bit at all, and the only reason you'd claim such is because you can't debate honestly.

What you very much are saying is that the result of a referendum should never be revisited, even if it's obvious that the consequences of that result will be disastrous and polls show a change in opinion (which they do).

That's fundamentally undemocratic.

Anyway, none other than Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nigel Farage were saying before the 2016 referendum that there could and should be a second referendum.

The second referendum started out as a concept of the Leave campaign.

Why the change of heart?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3rX4nJ0snc

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

joe40 · 10-12-2018 10:30pm

MarkHenderson wrote: »

Getting so bored of this now. The people have voted for Brexit. Just get on with it.

What an absolute disaster May has been.

That is what May has delivered, she has secured a WA and is now ready to enter the next stage of the negotiations.
They have ways said that technology will make border infrastructure unnecessary so the backstop will not need to come into affect.
I'm just presuming the knew what they were talking about and not making fantasy claims.

tipp_tipp_tipp · 10-12-2018 10:31pm

Was watching the debate on channel 4 there, JRM mentioned the head of the WTO stated there would not necessarily need to be hard border with NI in the event of a no deal. Tried googling this but couldn't find a link to it. Can anyone clarify what he was referring to? Apologies if this has been covered already.

hill16bhoy · 10-12-2018 10:35pm

MarkHenderson wrote: »

Getting so bored of this now. The people have voted for Brexit. Just get on with it.

So bored that you've taken the trouble to post on a politics forum about it?

"The problem wiv you lot is you DON'T BELIEVE in unicorns! Admit it, you don't! Heretics!"

trellheim · 10-12-2018 10:37pm

Paddy power offering a decent 9:1 odds on Euro/Sterling being 1:1 before the end of the year and I am grinning while I write this a 5:6 odds of rejoining the EU by 2027

https://www.paddypower.com/politics

that 1:1 eq looks nice tho

DOCARCH · 10-12-2018 10:40pm

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

JRM mentioned the head of the WTO stated there would not necessarily need to be hard border with NI in the event of a no deal. Tried googling this but couldn't find a link to it.

That keeps getting trotted out by Brexiteers, yet, in 2.5 years, not one of them has been able to put forward a credible alternative plan. Just soundbites and fantasy!

tuxy · 10-12-2018 10:41pm

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Was watching the debate on channel 4 there, JRM mentioned the head of the WTO stated there would not necessarily need to be hard border with NI in the event of a no deal. Tried googling this but couldn't find a link to it. Can anyone clarify what he was referring to? Apologies if this has been covered already.

I believe this is both correct and also misleading as it does not explain the full situation.
The UK could decide to have no border with Ireland under WTO.
But WTO also has non-discrimination rules, so every country they trade with could insist that there is also no check for goods coming from their country.

Professor Moriarty · 10-12-2018 10:42pm

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Was watching the debate on channel 4 there, JRM mentioned the head of the WTO stated there would not necessarily need to be hard border with NI in the event of a no deal. Tried googling this but couldn't find a link to it. Can anyone clarify what he was referring to? Apologies if this has been covered already.

Unsurprisingly, Jacob is being disingenuous. What a representative of the WTO said was that the WTO would not force Britain or the EU to erect a border i.e. it is outside their remit. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be necessary. Pascal Lamy the former head said that a border would have to be erected after Brexit.

Mezcita · 10-12-2018 10:44pm

trellheim wrote: »

Paddy power offering a decent 9:1 odds on Euro/Sterling being 1:1 before the end of the year and I am grinning while I write this a 5:6 odds of rejoining the EU by 2027

https://www.paddypower.com/politics

that 1:1 eq looks nice tho

You would need the UK to opt for no deal to make that happen though. That looks unlikely. May has been the master of kicking the can down the road for the last two years.

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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