Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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hill16bhoy wrote: »

What you very much are saying is that the result of a referendum should never be revisited

More lies, never said such a thing.

There may well be another one (to rejoin) after a significant, or reasonable period of time has passed. If the UK can't survive and thrive on it's own, they can always seek to return.

How long would their test period be, it's hard to say, likely would need to be at least 4-6yrs, I.e. a reasonable span of time to see of they can trade with the rest of the world. All they have to do is ask to come back, after the dust settles.

Any update on the Scottish Inde Ref you're working on?
It's been over 4yrs now, 4 long years.

Strazdas

MEP on Ch.4 News tonight pointed out that if Britain went for No Deal, it would mean it was tearing up the GFA and effectively becoming a rogue state.

I'm not sure that the Brexiteers realise (or care maybe) just how much they are trashing their country's reputation.

hill16bhoy

Douglas Thoughtless Headache wrote: »

More lies, never said such a thing.

There may well be another one (to rejoin) after a significant, or reasonable period of time has passed. If the UK can't survive and thrive on it's own, they can always seek to return.

How long would their test period be, it's hard to say, likely would need to be at least 4-6yrs, I.e. a reasonable span of time to see of they can trade with the rest of the world. All they have to do is ask to come back, after the dust settles.

Any update on the Scottish Inde Ref you're working on?
It's been over 4yrs now, 4 long years.

You've lost me with the last part. I'm not sure why you think I'm "working" for the Scottish Independence movement, but sure if you want to argue against a straw man, argue away.

The rest of the post bears out my assessment of your stance re democracy and referendums.

Your earlier lies about me weren't appreciated, by the way.

prawnsambo

Douglas Thoughtless Headache wrote: »

There may well be another one (to rejoin) after a significant, or reasonable period of time has passed. If the UK can't survive and thrive on it's own, they can always seek to return.

How long would their test period be, it's hard to say, likely would need to be at least 4-6yrs, I.e. a reasonable span of time to see of they can trade with the rest of the world. All they have to do is ask to come back, after the dust settles.

Yeah, you could do that. Only have to convince 27 countries that you pissed off a few years back, that you'd be good partners.

judeboy101

TM is looking to get the EU to agree to a legally binding clause to never use the backstop. Isn't that like saying "I have car insurance, but I'm never allowed to claim off it?"

Dyr

hill16bhoy wrote: »

No. I didn't say the bolded bit at all, and the only reason you'd claim such is because you can't debate honestly.

What you very much are saying is that the result of a referendum should never be revisited, even if it's obvious that the consequences of that result will be disastrous and polls show a change in opinion (which they do).

That's fundamentally undemocratic.

Anyway, none other than Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nigel Farage were saying before the 2016 referendum that there could and should be a second referendum.

The second referendum started out as a concept of the Leave campaign.

Why the change of heart?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3rX4nJ0snc

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

Right so, if and when there's a successful border poll, you're going to be supporting the inevitable calls that will emanate from the DUP to rerun it? Just on democratic principles alone.

Professor Moriarty

judeboy101 wrote: »

TM is looking to get the EU to agree to a legally binding clause to never use the backstop. Isn't that like saying "I have car insurance, but I'm never allowed to claim off it?"

That's the same as not having a backstop.

john9876

Is May gambling that the sooner we get to the end of March the more likely MPs are to support her deal when faced with the alternative of a no-deal brexit?

tuxy

Well Tusk has made his position clear on how this will no play out (as if he hadn't many times already)

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/st...863669248?s=12

john9876

Tuxy, your link isn't working.

hill16bhoy

Bambi wrote: »

Right so, if and when there's a successful border poll, you're going to be supporting the inevitable calls that will emanate from the DUP to rerun it? Just on democratic principles alone.

I wouldn't support holding a border poll in the first place unless opinion polls consistently showed 55% or more in favour of it, because the consequences of a 51-49 unification vote would likely be appalling and lead to a return to bloodshed.

Peace is much more important to me than a united Ireland.

However a successful unification vote of 55% or more would likely be much easier to implement than Brexit. A united Ireland is a more workable outcome on a legal level. It's not difficult to understand. The process of countries unifying (and splitting up) has already happened successfully in modern Europe.

Brexit has proved to be an unworkable project.

Leavers can't agree on what they want because they voted for an abstract fantasy in a referendum which was all about abstract fantasy.

One version of Brexit has effectively been delivered and rejected. There are only two other versions of it that are feasibly available - Norway, which looks likely to be a no go, and no deal, which is a catastrophe which nobody voted for.

An abstract fantasy is not a basis for going forward.

The situation has now changed to one where a second referendum with defined, properly explained choices is by far the most sensible and logical proposition.

briany

john9876 wrote: »

Tuxy, your link isn't working.

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1072190546863669248

tuxy

Thanks!

LeinsterDub

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/10/day-of-brexit-drama-ends-with-mp-grabbing-the-ceremonial-mace


The pantomime continues. I mean there are some who are more outraged about this than the actual brexit farce.

Infini

hill16bhoy wrote: »

I wouldn't support holding a border poll in the first place unless opinion polls consistently showed 55% or more in favour of it, because the consequences of a 51-49 unification vote would likely be appalling and lead to a return to bloodshed.

Peace is much more important to me than a united Ireland.

However a successful unification vote of 55% or more would likely be much easier to implement than Brexit. A united Ireland is a more workable outcome on a legal level. It's not difficult to understand. The process of countries unifying (and splitting up) has already happened successfully in modern Europe.

Brexit has proved to be an unworkable project.

Leavers can't agree on what they want because they voted for an abstract fantasy in a referendum which was all about abstract fantasy.

One version of Brexit has effectively been delivered and rejected. There are only two other versions of it that are feasibly available - Norway, which looks likely to be a no go, and no deal, which is a catastrophe which nobody voted for.

An abstract fantasy is not a basis for going forward.

The situation has now changed to one where a second referendum with defined, properly explained choices is by far the most sensible and logical proposition.

The thing is the best chance of a Border Poll resulting in a significant support for a UI would be both a crashout of the UK and severe economic damage on NI for a period of a year or so making the more stubborn voters reevaluate their interests and is a Union to a country with failed leadership and economic misery better than a UI.

Likewise the utter discredited politics of the DUP and how they made a mess of everything might make the penny drop as well expecially when a UI entails better rights and economic oppertunities also.

Strazdas wrote: »

MEP on Ch.4 News tonight pointed out that if Britain went for No Deal, it would mean it was tearing up the GFA and effectively becoming a rogue state.

I'm not sure that the Brexiteers realise (or care maybe) just how much they are trashing their country's reputation.

Lol at this stage their reputation is beyond trashed its a total dumpster fire at this point. Ignorance, idiocy and braindead stupidy.

On a side note when one thinks about it, about a century ago the British press had cartoons of how a Irish Parliment would be some dyscunctional, chaotic drunken mess...... guess whos laughing now lads.

lawred2

Who is this lad on Claire Byrne? An absolute loon..

Fann Linn

lawred2 wrote: »

Who is this lad on Claire Byrne? An absolute loon..

O'Toole.

road_high

briany wrote: »

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1072190546863669248

In other words we’ll politely listen and give you moral support but other than that that’s it.
Like the stepping up the No deal prep at the end, just to reinforce the point

lawred2

Liam Halligan it was... I'll have to dig out some of his other work

briany

hill16bhoy wrote: »

I wouldn't support holding a border poll in the first place unless opinion polls consistently showed 55% or more in favour of it, because the consequences of a 51-49 unification vote would likely be appalling and lead to a return to bloodshed.

Peace is much more important to me than a united Ireland.

However a successful unification vote of 55% or more would likely be much easier to implement than Brexit. A united Ireland is a more workable outcome on a legal level. It's not difficult to understand. The process of countries unifying (and splitting up) has already happened successfully in modern Europe.

Brexit has proved to be an unworkable project.

Leavers can't agree on what they want because they voted for an abstract fantasy in a referendum which was all about abstract fantasy.

One version of Brexit has effectively been delivered and rejected. There are only two other versions of it that are feasibly available - Norway, which looks likely to be a no go, and no deal, which is a catastrophe which nobody voted for.

An abstract fantasy is not a basis for going forward.

The situation has now changed to one where a second referendum with defined, properly explained choices is by far the most sensible and logical proposition.

The roots of the current debacle lies in Cameron promising a simple in-out choice.

If he had to have a simple in-out choice, the least he could have done was offer the same choice but have a double majority on it. That is to say a simple majority among the UK electorate + a majority of constituent countries.

Having the referendum on a simple majority was absolutely crazy. This isn't 'hindsight is 20/20' stuff. This is politics 101. You hold a vote on a highly charged, and possibly irreversible move, and the result is a narrow one, you're inviting disaster, and that's exactly what happened.

road_high

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/10/day-of-brexit-drama-ends-with-mp-grabbing-the-ceremonial-mace


The pantomime continues. I mean there are some who are more outraged about this than the actual brexit farce.

The English really are a breed apart- how we were ever in a Union with this lot defies belief (of course as we all know it wasn’t democratic). Reminds me of the Simpsons episode with Bart in Australia kicking their parliaments sacred boot out the window lol;

https://youtu.be/mSckdiTOvUo

amacca

lawred2 wrote: »

Liam Halligan it was... I'll have to dig out some of his other work

O'Toole fairly stomached him with the if technology can solve the border issues then why should the backstop be such a problem at all tack

Headshot

It really annoys me that BBC have a debate which involves an ex UKIP representative and they bringing up the WTO and there's no expert on the other side putting them in their place on how the WTO really works

Wheres Me Jumper?

there's more than a tad of irony in watching a nation who colonised the world, commanding other countries how to conduct their affairs, not being capable of governing itself.

tuxy

While claiming they are being bullied

Hurrache

amacca wrote: »

O'Toole fairly stomached him with the if technology can solve the border issues then why should the backstop be such a problem at all tack

He was left momentarily dumbfounded as to how to answer and then got shouty and headless from there on in.

Wheres Me Jumper?

tuxy wrote: »

While claiming they are being bullied

they really have painted themselves into a corner.
there were only ever 3 choices available to them, but now they are down to 2 ie WTO or No Brexit.

my money is on the latter.

swampgas

Rather grim analysis from Ian Dunt. TM may have found a way to avoid any vote by parliament on the deal, or may be able to delay it so long that no deal is inevitable. Scary stuff.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/12/10/another-day-of-shame-may-delays-brexit-vote-as-no-deal-suici

hill16bhoy

lawred2 wrote: »

Liam Halligan it was... I'll have to dig out some of his other work

That would be akin to reading old posts of pro-Brexit fantasists here.

Only do it if you feel like tearing out some of your hair.

Wheres Me Jumper?

swampgas wrote: »

Rather grim analysis from Ian Dunt. TM may have found a way to avoid any vote by parliament on the deal, or may be able to delay it so long that no deal is inevitable. Scary stuff.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/12/10/another-day-of-shame-may-delays-brexit-vote-as-no-deal-suici

lest we forget many Brits still see Dunkirk as a military victory.