Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Mr.Nice Guy

Thatnastyboy wrote: »

I see, but for the country or the "people" - There are little to no benefits?

I am well aware of the drawbacks, I just find it hard to believe that the good people of the UK are just allowing this ****show to continue.

It really does seem there are now 2 options on the table - no deal, or cancel the lot.

A no deal brexit will be an unmitigated disaster, cancelling brexit will cause serious unease - that won't go away. I doubt it could reach civil war levels but there would be a perpetual resounding "this wouldn't have happened if we'd left the EU" every time something less than perfect happens...


And it pretty much all stems from the signwriting on the side of a bus

You're forgetting the big one...freedom of movement. That's what is underpinning all of this for Joe Soap on the street. Their big concern is not empire or the inner wranglings of the Tory hierarchy or sovereignty. They don't like hearing foreign languages and accents when they go down to the market. They want to bring it back to the 'good old days'. I've listened to radio shows with James O'Brien where he asks them to spell out the advantages and it always comes back to this.

And for May this has been her reddest of red lines. She has not deviated from this demand and whenever she spells out the advantages of Brexit this is the first point she raises. "We will end freedom of movement..."

Thatnastyboy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You're forgetting the big one...freedom of movement. That's what is underpinning all of this for Joe Soap on the street. Their big concern is not empire or the inner wranglings of the Tory hierarchy or sovereignty. They don't like hearing foreign languages and accents when they go down to the market. They want to bring it back to the 'good old days'. I've listened to radio shows with James O'Brien where he asks them to spell out the advantages and it always comes back to this.

And for May this has been her reddest of red lines. She has not deviated from this demand and whenever she spells out the advantages of Brexit this is the first point she raises. "We will end freedom of movement..."

I guess there is no need to point out the fallacies of that entire notion in this thread

Water John

TM's performance on immigration should have seen her gone as PM. She never used the rules on immigration available to her, but let Rudd take the flack for her and her Windrush scandal.
Her saying it's about immigration is totally disenginous by her.

CrabRevolution

There's clearly a large number of Tory MPs who are convinced that:

1. The UK can force the EU to give them a better (i.e.more cake) deal.

2. Theresa May is the one best placed to do this.

Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the numbers we're seeing in the votes.

These seem sort of contradictory, since they want a harder brexit than May is offering, but want May to deliver brexit. In my mind you can't both want May as PM and want a harder brexit.

They either hold an earnest belief that the EU will capitulate to their demands before March no matter who is PM, or just want a no deal brexit and think this is the best way to achieve it.

Hurrache

Remember Andrew Ridgen on Stephen Nolan claiming that the British were entitled to Irish passports, amongst other clangers, and hung up during the ad break and wouldn't answer his phone? Seems like he's a nice bloke to work with
https://twitter.com/scottygb/status/1072811633788010497

And I caught this the other day, look how petulant and childish he is when someone dares deconstruct his argument.
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1072444378231255040

robinph

CrabRevolution wrote: »

There's clearly a large number of Tory MPs who are convinced that:

1. The UK can force the EU to give them a better (i.e.more cake) deal.

2. Theresa May is the one best placed to do this.

Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the numbers we're seeing in the votes.

These seem sort of contradictory, since they want a harder brexit than May is offering, but want May to deliver brexit. In my mind you can't both want May as PM and want a harder brexit.

They either hold an earnest belief that the EU will capitulate to their demands before March no matter who is PM, or just want a no deal brexit and think this is the best way to achieve it.

Apart from the handful of fringe loons I don't think they particularly believe either of those statements. It's just that holding an anonymous ballot enables them to claim they voted whatever way works best for them once the whole thing is over.

They then get to say "I told you so" forever more and come out looking good, despite them knowing it was all a disaster from the outset.

Enzokk

Laois_Man wrote: »

David Cameron did not do the cowardly thing - He did the respectable thing! It might not be saying much, but he was a more honorable PM than May is

He is a coward. He called the referendum, he said he would see the result through whatever it is, but when it came down to it he ran away as fast as he could. He lit the paper that is burning down the house, turned around and whistled his way out of No 10. He deserves nothing more than contempt.

Inquitus

1/10 on now for May to survive, that implies she'll win with a healthy enough margin to take resignation off the table.

briany

Enzokk wrote: »

He is a coward. He called the referendum, he said he would see the result through whatever it is, but when it came down to it he ran away as fast as he could. He lit the paper that is burning down the house, turned around and whistled his way out of No 10. He deserves nothing more than contempt.

David Cameron did not believe in Brexit. He was one of the Remain's biggest advocates. I don't really understand how he was supposed to stay on as Prime Minister when his party and country were going in a direction that he fundamentally did not agree with.

It's not that he's above contempt, though. His decision to boil a complex question down to an either/or choice definitely makes him deserving of jeers, imo.

Laois_Man

Enzokk wrote: »

He is a coward. He called the referendum, he said he would see the result through whatever it is, but when it came down to it he ran away as fast as he could. He lit the paper that is burning down the house, turned around and whistled his way out of No 10. He deserves nothing more than contempt.

The promise of a referendum was in the Tory manifesto of the 2015 General Election which is the manifesto that the British people voted for - he didn't just call it out of the blue. I don't remember him saying he would stay on regardless of the Brexit result - perhaps he did - I suspect he was very cocky he would win as it did seem a slam dunk until late on. But his leaving was the right thing. You cant spend months going around the country saying Brexit would be a disaster, impossible, and then take charge of Brexit afterwards. And I do remember him saying he was going to resign if the Scottish independence referendum went against him too. Although I think that was after the event. See, he couldn't say he was going to go BEFORE the vote as it may have attracted more votes to Brexit from people who just wanted rid of him

Laois_Man

May is apparently going to tell the Tory parliamentary party that she will not contest the next General Election.

ancapailldorcha

briany wrote: »

David Cameron did not believe in Brexit. He was one of the Remain's biggest advocates. I don't really understand how he was supposed to stay on as Prime Minister when his party and country were going in a direction that he fundamentally did not agree with.

It's not that he's above contempt, though. His decision to boil a complex question down to an either/or choice definitely makes him deserving of jeers, imo.

Cameron is a Eurosceptic, albeit one that knows that actually leaving the EU is unwise. He was happy to use it as a scapegoat for years never thinking that it might come back to bit him in the posterior.

Then came Indyref 2014 where he was able to successfully employ all manner of scare tactics to coax the Scots into staying in the UK. However, in 2016 he found that he was unable to rely on either his oligarch press baron accomplices or the Labour party and thus, Brexit.

If I ever meet him, I intend to tell him to go back to his shed and think about what he did.

Tell me how

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Cameron is a Eurosceptic, albeit one that knows that actually leaving the EU is unwise. He was happy to use it as a scapegoat for years never thinking that it might come back to bit him in the posterior.

Then came Indyref 2014 where he was able to successfully employ all manner of scare tactics to coax the Scots into staying in the UK. However, in 2016 he found that he was unable to rely on either his oligarch press baron accomplices or the Labour party and thus, Brexit.

If I ever meet him, I intend to tell him to go back to his shed and think about what he did.

I am sure you are being somewhat facetious but even so, I'd imagine he has heard that and worse many times in the last 2 years.

He got out of a car on Monday night and clarified that he regretted nothing. When you get over the fact that there is always going to be someone in your face saying that you did the wrong thing, no matter how well you have performed, I imagine it is quite easy to rest with what ever decisions you did make.

Enzokk

briany wrote: »

David Cameron did not believe in Brexit. He was one of the Remain's biggest advocates. I don't really understand how he was supposed to stay on as Prime Minister when his party and country were going in a direction that he fundamentally did not agree with.

It's not that he's above contempt, though. His decision to boil a complex question down to an either/or choice definitely makes him deserving of jeers, imo.

If he truly believed in the EU and knew of its importance to the UK he would have stayed away from the referendum as much as possible. So either he is as ancapailldorcha mentions also a Eurosceptic or he is an idiot who played fast and loose with the future of the country. There is no way him walking away from the mess he made is respectful.

Laois_Man wrote: »

The promise of a referendum was in the Tory manifesto of the 2015 General Election which is the manifesto that the British people voted for - he didn't just call it out of the blue. I don't remember him saying he would stay on regardless of the Brexit result - perhaps he did - I suspect he was very cocky he would win as it did seem a slam dunk until late on. But his leaving was the right thing. You cant spend months going around the country saying Brexit would be a disaster, impossible, and then take charge of Brexit afterwards. And I do remember him saying he was going to resign if the Scottish independence referendum went against him too. Although I think that was after the event. See, he couldn't say he was going to go BEFORE the vote as it may have attracted more votes to Brexit from people who just wanted rid of him

It was in the manifesto to placate the lunatic fringe of his party. If you play with fire you will get burned, only in this case other people will get burned. People who cannot afford it will suffer the most but he is a millionaire and he will be fine.

I agree he was in an impossible position after the election result, but he put himself there. There was nothing to respect about any of his decisions in all of this, as you posted.

flatty

Laois_Man wrote: »

May is apparently going to tell the Tory parliamentary party that she will not contest the next General Election.

She said that a good while back. Look, she is a vile backstabbing coward. Her behaviour has been reprehensible. She, out of personal petulance and bigotry, pulled the "three red lines" out of the sky. She shafted Amber Rudd when she perceived a threat. She has dithered and appeased and evaded for two years whilst businesses have upped sticks. She talks about respecting the will of the people, but she won't let them vote on her proposal. She put the proposal to parliament, then pulled it because she was afraid she would look bad. She has attempted at every turn to subvert parliament. She appointed fools and bigots to the highest offices.
I know for a fact that she has one interest only. Being in charge on March 19, as, for whatever reason, she sees it as her place in history. She cares not a whit for the people, the institutions, the border, the violence, nothing.
She cares only about teresa may. Not a single other thing.

Tell me how

Sky News giving a run through of what is happening in Committee room 14 in West Minister.

it is fascinating stuff. They spoke through the sequence of the government whips banging tables within the room as May walks in to project an image that she has a lot of support.

This is the epitome of reality TV if you are in any way interested in current affairs.

tuxy

Tell me how wrote: »

This is the epitome of reality TV if you are in any way interested in current affairs.

While it is current affairs most of this nonsense pantomime belongs in the 1800s
How can the UK expect anyone to take them seriously after this?

devnull

Lots of talk on Twitter about cabinet members set to vote against despite saying otherwise publicly. Since its a secret ballot they want to seem loyal in case she wins it.

Says it all about tory party. Based on numbers declared as supporting her she should win but seems we might not be able to trust that.

Tell me how

tuxy wrote: »

While it is current affairs most of this nonsense pantomime belongs in the 1800s
How can the UK expect anyone to take them seriously after this?

Through rigid and persistent ignorance that anyone eases opinion matters.

Exactly as they have been engaging with everyone over at least the last 2 years but in reality since day dot. (Outside of the Tony Blair / George Bush bromance)

Awesomeness

Theresa May has lied consistently and told everyone what they want to hear.

Shes just told MPs there is a legally binding solution to the backstop coming. She's Lying. Again.

She can say she wont contest the next election but is not giving any dates on when she will step down. Shes probably lying there too. But she will say and do anything to survive this evening.

intellectual dosser

Awesomeness wrote: »

Theresa May has lied consistently and told everyone what they want to head.

Shes just told MPs there is a legally binding solution to the backstop coming. She's Lying. Again.

She can say she wont contest the next election but is not giving any dates on when she will step down. Shes probably lying there too. But she will say and do anything to survive this evening.

Thats news to me?

Edit: A check on twitter shows you're telling truths. Need to restock on popcorn.

Awesomeness

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Thats news to me?

Edit: A check on twitter shows you're telling truths. Need to restock on popcorn.

See tweets below. She cant help herself

https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1072906917809397760

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1072909770817003521

Akrasia

Awesomeness wrote: »

Theresa May has lied consistently and told everyone what they want to hear.

Shes just told MPs there is a legally binding solution to the backstop coming. She's Lying. Again.

She can say she wont contest the next election but is not giving any dates on when she will step down. Shes probably lying there too. But she will say and do anything to survive this evening.

Good old democracy, where a vote based on lies is just as binding as a vote based on the truth, and in the country that insists on calling it's parlimentarians 'right honourable' every 15 seconds, it's much more acceptable to lie blatantly to parliament, than to accuse anyone of being dishonest.

ARNOLD J RIMMER

Brexit has fallen through its arse.

May will easily survive the confidence vote as nobody who the Tories saw as potential replacement put themselves forward before the vote.

They didn’t but themselves forward as they know they can’t get a better deal from the EU.

They also don’t want to be leader on Brexit Day.


Labour won’t call a no confidence vote in the Government for a General Election as they also don’t want to be the party in Government on Brexit Day.

Corbyn will wait until he is sure the General Election vote can’t happen until after Brexit

Labour will then run an Election campaign on cleaning up the Torie mess with no responsibilities UK finds themselves in after Brexit

Leroy42

This is the part where I have no sympathy for TM, which many people in the media and other areas seem to have.

She has either outright lied or hidden the truth throughout the whole process.

She has lied to the DUP, the ERG, Davis said he lied to her, Raab claims she lied to him. Yet we are supposed to believe that throughout all this this is working on the best interests of the country?

She has consistently mislead the EU, missing numerous deadlines and saying one thing to them before saying different at home.

She has never once, until she had the deal, made the fact that the UK would need to make compromises to get a deal. Now she is saying that a backstop is totally necessary, only a few weeks ago she was proclaiming that no PM would ever agree to it!

The UK needed politicians that would tell the truth, hard as it was to hear. We are leaving and these are the costs. But still they are making it out as if there is no costs.

McGiver

Lot of BS and empty phrases from May at her speech:

1. That she will deliver Brexit which hounours the result of the referendum while protecting the economy, jobs and the "precious" Union.
2. That the Conservative Party are moderate, pragmatic, modern party working for everyone.
3. That they are working on resolving housing issues, poverty, improving public services.

Anyone can actually believe that nonsense?
1. Undeliverable, such Brexit doesn't exist. She either knows it and lies or is deluded.
2. Last 3 years have shown that Tories are not pragmatic whatsoever - John Major must be furious (and I think he is). And any talks about modern, oh my, don't get me started. With the lot like JRM?
3. This is frankly insulting. They haven't done any actual goevernance last 3 years, just wasted time and money on undeliverable Brexit. And the UN poverty report is clear on poverty, it's a shame that a European G8 country has this level of poverty.

serfboard

devnull wrote: »

Lots of talk on Twitter about cabinet members set to vote against despite saying otherwise publicly. Since its a secret ballot they want to seem loyal in case she wins it.

There was a great discussion on Sean O'Rourke this morning involving Matthew Parris where they talked about this.

The jist of it was that they can publicly back her all they like - what they do in private is another matter, and no better party than the Tories for doing it.

And cabinet members who don't publicly back her will get the boot if/when she wins.

Hurrache

devnull wrote: »

Lots of talk on Twitter about cabinet members set to vote against despite saying otherwise publicly. Since its a secret ballot they want to seem loyal in case she wins it.

Gove earlier on Sky News wouldn't directly answer if he'd support her, the only thing he'd say was that he'd support here if she won the confidence motion.

tuxy

No choice but support her when she survives. 12 months until the tory party can call this vote again and I doubt he would support a parliament vote called by Labour and the SNP.

Enzokk

This seems important in light of the fact that she said she had a legally binding backstop solution,

https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1072908243154931712

https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1072909377601003521

https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1072911521024495618

https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1072914336602038272