Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

BonnieSituation

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You don't think the major European Powers don't suffer from excepionalism? That fact alone would make them exceptional!

It is a feature of almost all post empire states to suffer from excepionalism:
The non exhaustive list includes:
Corkonians
France
Germany
Russia
USA
China
Japan
And of course the UK.

FYP

I never said anything of the sort. But our friend seems to think that the British don't.

MrMusician18

BonnieSituation wrote: »

FYP

I never said anything of the sort. But our friend seems to think that the British don't.

Ah now ok. The British establishment very much does suffer from it. It's a particularly poisonous one that seems to take all non English speakers as fools.

brickster69

Enzokk;108391902

brickster69 wrote: »

Unless the backstop is time limited someone is going to be breaking this treaty that's for certain now.Rees Mogg questioned Verhofstadt on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4w7W-rduZ8

Are you saying that the GFA will be broken regardless? If there is no time limit then surely things should continue as is and I see no threat to the GFA.Possibly i am looking at things too simplistic. Of course it is a very complicated matter.A non time limited backstop probably won't be accepted by the UK, because in the event of  trade talks lasting ten years the UK would effictively not leave the EU for that period. The fact that the political declaration would not be legal could ( not saying it will ) leave the UK in limbo forever. It's pretty obvious that the EU

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Cut out the name calling please. Post deleted.

joe40

As a result to the GFA Northern Ireland residents are allowed to hold republic of Ireland passports (dual citizenship) which is also an EU passport.
In a post brexit world would this be able to continue?

A northern Ireland citizen (ie British citizen) could also be an EU citizen. It is also an difference with the rest of the UK which seem to be an anathema to the DUP.

I just don't know the answer maybe it is not even an issue though.

First Up

MrMusician18 wrote:

You don't think the major European Powers don't suffer from excepionalism? That fact alone would make them exceptional!

I don't think you understand what exeptionalism means.

brickster69

Cannot believe i never copied the whole post.


It's pretty obvious that a trade deal would be of benefit to both parties. You could say well the EU have offered Canada / Japan deal but it has been rejected. The UK wants more than that. 

Could well be better to put a time limit on a trade deal being concluded to the satisfaction of both parties than the Irish border.

BonnieSituation

joe40 wrote: »

As a result to the GFA Northern Ireland residents are allowed to hold republic of Ireland passports (dual citizenship) which is also an EU passport.
In a post brexit world would this be able to continue?

A northern Ireland citizen (ie British citizen) could also be an EU citizen. It is also an difference with the rest of the UK which seem to be an anathema to the DUP.

I just don't know the answer maybe it is not even an issue though.

The 1956 Citizenship Act bestowed the right of Irish citizenship to those born in the north - it technically removed the time limit of the 1935 act.

The GFA ensured that this right was placed into the Constitution.

Winters

joe40 wrote: »

As a result to the GFA Northern Ireland residents are allowed to hold republic of Ireland passports (dual citizenship) which is also an EU passport.
In a post brexit world would this be able to continue?

A northern Ireland citizen (ie British citizen) could also be an EU citizen. It is also an difference with the rest of the UK which seem to be an anathema to the DUP.

I just don't know the answer maybe it is not even an issue though.

They are Irish passports, yes we are a republic like France and others but its not the name of our country.

ambro25

Everyone in the mood for a bit of Friday afternoon Brexit fun?

I haven’t laughed so spontaneously at anything Brexit-related in a long time!

BonnieSituation

Winters wrote: »

They are Irish passports, yes we are a republic like the French Republic France and others but its not the name of our country.

Thank you!

That Republic of Ireland sh1t winds me up something fierce!

seamus

There have been "noises", mostly from the Brexit camp that the EU will drop the Irish border issue if this is allowed to drag on long enough. They're getting noisier at the moment, but the chances of this happening are small.

If you look at the actual figures, 75% of the EU's population is located in 7 members (including the UK). Therefore, the other 21 members are "small" countries. Like Ireland.

An while their economic figures are small, the coherency, purpose and vision of the EU requires these member states. From a Brexiteer's point of view, they may feel that the EU can and should just serve the "greater good" and disregard the needs of the smaller, from the EU's point of view, this is a test of union. That if the EU doesn't stand by its small members, then it may as well start dissolving the union. If Ireland gets burned, nobody else is going to join the EU and others are going to leave.

Barnier's statement this morning that the deal is 90% done - except for the border - has been interpreted in some camps as meaning that the EU is tired of holding the line about this border nonsense and will let it go. When realistically it's more likely the opposite - the EU is telling the UK that that they're tired of the UK stonewalling over this small issue and the UK needs to concede, because their prize is right there for the taking.

charlie14

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You don't think the major European Powers don't suffer from excepionalism? That fact alone would make them exceptional!

It is a feature of almost all post empire states to suffer from excepionalism:
The non exhaustive list includes:
France
Germany
Russia
USA
China
Japan
And of course the UK.

Exceptionalism to me is like kids in a school yard at break. There may be one that feels exceptional to the rest in their own mind. While the kid keeps such thoughts to his or her self it is not a problem. Where it becomes a problem for the other kids is when this kid voices or displays that feeling.


The present attitude by many in the UK too the Brexit situation in many ways I feel can be related to exceptionalism. Frank Skinner the English comedian when he first took an interest in politics was amazed that his father a factory worker voted Tory. A party at it`s top level he saw as being that of Eton toffs a million miles removed from his fathers position in life. When he asked him why he blindly voted for them he was told that it was because these people knew best because they were a class of people raised and educated to run the country.
He didn`t mention it then but the line of "lions led by lambs" in relation to WW1 for me came to mind then as it has quite a few times recently looking at the present UK government.

joe40

Winters wrote: »

They are Irish passports, yes we are a republic like France and others but its not the name of our country.

Fair point, duly noted. It is just all this this differentiating between North and south, gets cumbersome. (as a Donegal person I actually dislike the north and south distinction)

Anyway the point about the passports, is like the CTA, it was agreed before the EU existed. An agreement between two sovereign countries, no one else involved.

Since we are now fully fledged members of the EU, agreement with us are also now agreements with the EU. (I'm not saying that is a bad thing) just does it not add a layer of complication, that did not exist when agreements were made in pre - EU times

As I said I'm not expert on these things just posing a question

judeboy101

seamus wrote: »

There have been "noises", mostly from the Brexit camp that the EU will drop the Irish border issue if this is allowed to drag on long enough. They're getting noisier at the moment, but the chances of this happening are small.

If you look at the actual figures, 75% of the EU's population is located in 7 members (including the UK). Therefore, the other 20 members are "small" countries. Like Ireland.

An while their economic figures are small, the coherency, purpose and vision of the EU requires these member states. From a Brexiteer's point of view, they may feel that the EU can and should just serve the "greater good" and disregard the needs of the smaller, from the EU's point of view, this is a test of union. That if the EU doesn't stand by its small members, then it may as well start dissolving the union. If Ireland gets burned, nobody else is going to join the EU and others are going to leave.

Barnier's statement this morning that the deal is 90% done - except for the border - has been interpreted in some camps as meaning that the EU is tired of holding the line about this border nonsense and will let it go. When realistically it's more likely the opposite - the EU is telling the UK that that they're tired of the UK stonewalling over this small issue and the UK needs to concede, because their prize is right there for the taking.

News at one reports same, from merkl she said maybe eu/ireland rethink Ni approach.

Hurrache

ambro25 wrote: »

Everyone in the mood for a bit of Friday afternoon Brexit fun?

I haven’t laughed so spontaneously at anything Brexit-related in a long time!

This lad sums up the guy who they're rumouring to take Britain through Brexit
https://twitter.com/RichardBentall/status/1053211427652227073

judeboy101 wrote: »

News at one reports same, from merkl she said maybe eu/ireland rethink Ni approach.

They're reporting that it's being reported she said that. Analysis suggested that based on her subsequent comments that she's fully behind Ireland and that the initial reports are either wrong, or she has been misunderstood.

Strazdas

Hurrache wrote: »

They're reporting that it's being reported she said that. Analysis suggested that based on her subsequent comments that she's fully behind Ireland and that the initial reports are either wrong, or she has been misunderstood.

It was almost certainly a complete misinterpretation of Merkel's comments. There is no way she would be putting pressure on Barnier to change his negotiating stance.

20silkcut

Hurrache wrote: »

This lad sums up the guy who they're rumouring to take Britain through Brexit
https://twitter.com/RichardBentall/status/1053211427652227073



They're reporting that it's being reported she said that. Analysis suggested that based on her subsequent comments that she's fully behind Ireland and that the initial reports are either wrong, or she has been misunderstood.

Mind bending logic kind of like saying let’s forfeit the game now because if we lose it will be forfeited anyway.

Zubeneschamali

Peregrinus wrote: »

Brexiters thinking that they can just magic away problems that no other country has ever been able to deal with are just engaging in more of the wishful thinking on which the project is largely built.

I don't think they really believe this open border talk.

They want to Brexit and will say anything to get it done, and then afterwards say "Well, new information has come to our attention which means we have to have a border, immigration controls, customs, hardened crossing points, the army back on the streets" etc.

They know this but don't care, because setting fire to NI is a small price to pay to be free of the EU.

Just like the 10 year depression they are pretending won't happen.

ancapailldorcha

Is the Conservative party really so detached from reality that it needs to hit a brick wall before it sees what a calamitous state it's in? I know that the electoral system gives it a highly privileged position but even with that, it's plain to see that in its current state it'll crash either at the next election or at the one after. It's so far removed from the electorate that it has barely any members. There are would be modernisers like Ruth Davidson but she's recently said she doesn't want to be leader. Anyone centrist isn't going to try anything until the right wing of the party gets a bloody nose.

In the meantime, the Conservatives have shattered their covenant with the British public. They are party of McJobs, obscene house prices, skyrocketing economic inequality and protecting privilege. Their image of being the party that would protect the economy that provided you with your home, your children with schools and your ill with hospitals. All of this has been replaced with Brexit, uncertainty and a very ugly sort of nationalism that elements of the party have helped to grow and unleash.

There is nobody I can see who can both replace May and win back the electorate's faith and trust. I suspect that the electoral pendulum will swing to Jeremy Corbyn before it settles back into the centre for a while. I can't imagine him mismanaging the country as badly as May is at the moment. He might even build a few houses.

Folkstonian

I think Johnny Mercer would have an excellent leader of the conservatives one day. He’s not the most polished speaker in the party quite yet but he comes across as far more honest, passionate and connected to ordinary Tory voters (traditionally) than any of the current contenders for leadership.

I do agree that the current leadership options are about as wretched as it gets. It’s actually quite baffling that they have done the legs of the police, the military, business large and small, the elderly, young ambitious professionals, Northern Ireland etc... almost every section of society who would normally be relied upon to support them has been completely betrayed, but for who?

Leroy42

There is no way that the EU can give in on the border issue, even if they wanted to.

If they allow a no border between Ireland and the UK, then Switzerland will be on the phone the next second. And Turkey. And Norway.

It has nothing to do with Ireland per se, or that somehow the EU love us and feel sorry for us. This is purely about protecting the EU.

Drop the border, essentially dropping one of the key parts of the EU, and the EU will be gone in a matter of years. The costs to remain would far outweigh the benefits.

And that is the position that the UK cannot seem to understand. They seem to believe the EU are trying to bully and hurt the UK for voting to leave. Instead, the EU is trying to protect itself for other countries wanting to exit and thus damage the EU.

Brexit is a serious knock to the standing and power of the EU in the world. What they cannot let happen is the damage to spread.

Seth Brundle

Leroy42 wrote: »

There is no way that the EU can give in on the border issue, even if they wanted to.

Of course they could.
But it would show a lack of unity within the union and would start the eventual breakup of the EU.

Leroy42 wrote: »

If they allow a no border between Ireland and the UK, then Switzerland will be on the phone the next second. And Turkey. And Norway.

NI has received special status for a number of reasons:
* existing agreements e.g GFA
* Republic of Ireland will be the only land area in direct contact with the UK
* half the population claim to be Irish
* threat of a return to violence
These don't apply to the other named countries.

Leroy42 wrote: »

It has nothing to do with Ireland per se, or that somehow the EU love us and feel sorry for us. This is purely about protecting the EU.

We're part of the EU don't forget!

Leroy42 wrote: »

Drop the border, essentially dropping one of the key parts of the EU, and the EU will be gone in a matter of years. The costs to remain would far outweigh the benefits.

Nobody wants the border (EU or UK) apart from the lunatics witin the DUP.
However the UK has not decided on what level it wants to leave the union (as a complete standalone entity or as an affiliated member to the EU).
Therefore, the likelihood of a border is there (by both sides) simply because it is a requirement to protect national trade, etc.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Brexit is a serious knock to the standing and power of the EU in the world. What they cannot let happen is the damage to spread.

I don't see how it is "serious knock" to the EU. The EU has stood firm despite the nonsense spouted by the various elements ithin the UK (supported by Moscow and Washington).

A Dub in Glasgo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There are would be modernisers like Ruth Davidson but she's recently said she doesn't want to be leader..

Do not get sucked into the media facade of Davidson - she is rarely put under any scrutiny and when she does, she runs a mile. She used to work for the BBC and gets an easy pass. She has no probelm with sectarian bigots in the party in Scotland and she flip flops quite a bit

EdgeCase

judeboy101 wrote: »

News at one reports same, from merkl she said maybe eu/ireland rethink Ni approach.

Well, they would also have the situation where the most pro-EU member state is put in a position where it ends up vetoing the deal if that were to happen in a way that undermine the GFA.

brickster69

I don't see how it is "serious knock" to the EU
Of course it is a serious knock to the EU. Not that i personally want to see that happen.
It is a big erosion of the EU's power. It will never again reach what it had with the UK as a member and only erode further as other non contributing members join. You can be pretty sure also that any trade deals struck while the UK was a member will be revisited by all parties concerned.
Of course the UK will be significantly worse off also. Sounds like a lose lose situation for everyone.

Zubeneschamali

brickster69 wrote: »

It is a big erosion of the EU's power. It will never again reach what it had with the UK as a member

Well, not until they rejoin, at least. Will take a generation, I suppose, for enough Leavers to die - they will never ever admit they were wrong.

Enzokk

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Do not get sucked into the media facade of Davidson - she is rarely put under any scrutiny and when she does, she runs a mile. She used to work for the BBC and gets an easy pass. She has no probelm with sectarian bigots in the party in Scotland and she flip flops quite a bit

She is also in the position of being the leader of a party that can effectively control the fate of Brexit, they have 13 votes in the HoC, yet they have not stood up for the own constituents who voted to remain by more than 60% and have let Theresa May have her way and the DUP have their way with the party they are supposedly part of.

I would guess the reason she doesn't want to be leader is because uncomfortable questions will be asked on her leadership in Scotland than anything else. It is very easy to be in opposition, you just oppose everything the other party does. When it was time to lead her party dropped the ball completely and it comes back to the party leader.

brickster69

they will never ever admit they were wrong
First they have to find out if they were wrong before they can admit to it.

A Dub in Glasgo

Enzokk wrote: »

She is also in the position of being the leader of a party that can effectively control the fate of Brexit, they have 13 votes in the HoC, yet they have not stood up for the own constituents who voted to remain by more than 60% and have let Theresa May have her way and the DUP have their way with the party they are supposedly part of.

I would guess the reason she doesn't want to be leader is because uncomfortable questions will be asked on her leadership in Scotland than anything else. It is very easy to be in opposition, you just oppose everything the other party does. When it was time to lead her party dropped the ball completely and it comes back to the party leader.

There is an element of PR spin in the way the media has framed the Tory party in Scotland as if they were separate party - they are not and the MPs come under the leadership of May and the Tory whip. Davidson has one policy and that is anti-Scottish independence and that is it really

You are absolutely spot on about those MPs though, all 13 of them should be representing their constituents and they do not