Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Rhineshark

Leroy42 wrote: »

This is just another TM promise to whomever she happens to be speaking to at the time. She has so many condradictory positions I doubt even she knows what she is supposed to be saying.


My read from that is TM trying to buy a bit of time from the business community. Thats it.

It literally means nothing.

Might be an attempt to get the EU to agree to a November summit too.

Doesn't solve anything but bigod if there's an inch of road ahead, the can is being kicked to it.

Mr.Nice Guy

Potential direction of travel...?

https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1053297961508261888

RobMc59

Rhineshark wrote: »

Scoondal wrote: »

Why would UK MPs take any account of the UK border in Ireland. If May thinks she can get an agreement to a transition phase, her own MPs will vote against her and it will not happen. They want out of EU on 29 March. It seems everything is agreed except the border.
I see a no deal Brexit. And I think that is the best thing for Ireland. We need to learn that we can survive without UK. It will be tough, but we need to accept this. Let's move forward in Ireland without this reliance on UK. We are a good country of hard working people. We can survive and do well with less UK influence over our trade, culture and society.
I hope there is no deal.

And to hell with the border counties? If it's a hard border, those counties will suffer, much like they did before the GFA.

We don't need to rely on the UK. But given our geographic proximity, we could do with co-operation.

You should be careful what you wish for,Ireland and Britain are closely intertwined and do  rely on each other.

Scoondal

Enzokk wrote: »

Unfortunately we aren't only talking about how this would effect us economically. You have the past history on the island that needs to be considered. Now you may not see an immediate return to the height of the troubles if there is no deal and a border, but you can be sure there will be a rise in tensions that will make a return to violence more possible. To allow that to happen is not acceptable from the two countries that have signed the treaty. It is up to the UK to realize this and if they want to leave they are going to have to jettison NI by having different regulations and tariffs or they will need to stay in the EU. David Cameron should have known this and probably did but he gambled with other people's lives.

As for other news, we have this statement from Toyota. More project fear from those experts people are tired of hearing from.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1053242539468296192

David Cameron held a democratic vote.
UK citizens voted to leave EU.
All independant polls have indicated no significant shift in the opinion of UK citizens.
That's democracy, unfortunately.

Leroy42

Rhineshark wrote: »

Might be an attempt to get the EU to agree to a November summit too.

Doesn't solve anything but bigod if there's an inch of road ahead, the can is being kicked to it.

I really wouldn't read much into it. She is trying to tell the audience what she thinks they want to hear. And business wants to hear that everything will stay close to how it is now.

She told HoC only Monday that separate NI from UK is unthinkable.

The only consistent thing about TM is that she is prepared to say whatever she has to to get past the next question. Thats it. No big plan, no cunning scheme.

An Claidheamh

RobMc59 wrote: »

You should be careful what you wish for,Ireland and Britain are closely intertwined and do  rely on each other.

That sort of talk is the same nonsense the UK claim about themselves and the US.
It appears to be one way.

We don't have that much in common, they're a monarchy, post Imperialist jingoistic and unhappy divided country, still upset about the Vatican.

Clearly, they don't like Ireland.
We can't be expected to like them.

If they sent a nuclear bomb our way, you'd have someone on here or the Indo telling us we should thank them for free heating.

We rely on credit, the markets, the beef industry, Fdi, the EU - but we don't 'rely' on them.

The North on the other hand, needs their subsidies and our facilities, Dublin airport for instance.

Kermit.de.frog

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Potential direction of travel...?

https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1053297961508261888

Germany will never allow that.


That's cake and eat it.

An Claidheamh

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Potential direction of travel...?

https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1053297961508261888

If that's true, then the Germans would be encouraging other countries to leave.

Tories are using the Irish backstop as an excuse to either get concessions or, actually stay in the EU - they're just afraid to admit it.

An Ciarraioch

The EU has just signed an FTA with Singapore - if that's the size of an agreement with a city-state, imagine the UK version!

http://twitter.com/jurilaas/status/1053304705403764736

lawred2

The UK must be looking forward to negotiating the exact same document..

There must be a few from the UK who were negotiators of that deal.

I doubt they'd have the heart to do it all over again.

Brexit is the dumbest thing ever.

flutered

Folkstonian wrote: »

I think Johnny Mercer would have an excellent leader of the conservatives one day. He’s not the most polished speaker in the party quite yet but he comes across as far more honest, passionate and connected to ordinary Tory voters (traditionally) than any of the current contenders for leadership.

I do agree that the current leadership options are about as wretched as it gets. It’s actually quite baffling that they have done the legs of the police, the military, business large and small, the elderly, young ambitious professionals, Northern Ireland etc... almost every section of society who would normally be relied upon to support them has been completely betrayed, but for who?

here is part of his cv, taken from elsewhere
Does it all for expenses too, gives his wife £30,000 a year for being his 'secratry'. Always maxes out his travel and accomodation expenses, 2 years runnings he's spent nearly £14,000 on hotels in London. Hits nearly £20,000 on travel for himself and his 'staff'. He is a staunch Tory doesn't speak up about the shower that is Universal Credit, voting to cut welfare funding etc etc

Scoondal

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/british-expats-in-ireland-you-can-t-be-a-stuck-up-brit-1.2739028
This is a good example of the stupidity of UK Brexit voters.
They really think that Ireland is not a totally independant country. Lovely people of course, but living in some deluded reality.
THIS is what we are dealing with regarding UK citizens' vote to leave EU.

Enzokk

Scoondal wrote: »

David Cameron held a democratic vote.
UK citizens voted to leave EU.
All independant polls have indicated no significant shift in the opinion of UK citizens.
That's democracy, unfortunately.

Well all polling seems to show that staying in the EU would win now if a vote was held. This is before the arguments on the economic benefits and this time there would be no lying like they did last time. The likes of Farage and Rees Mogg and Davis will have to tell the truth about the single market and whether they would have access to it and not pay for it (Johnson in case you didn't know who said that).

But you are correct that a vote was held. There is also the quite large matter that the Leave campaign massively overspent and you can be sure there would be other breaches of laws to be found if only people wanted to look for them.

But this is neither here nor there. The problem has always been and will always be the border between the EU and the UK. Yes, the only land border shared. Unfortunately this can only be settled in one of two ways. Break an international treaty, or have different regulatory and customs tariffs if the UK wants to leave the EU. We could have 50 votes but these facts will not change and they will not be solved by magical solutions.

Brexit: Remain would be ahead in fresh EU referendum, new polls tracker suggests

Remain would be ahead in a fresh referendum on Britain’s EU membership, according to a poll-of-polls tracker headed by the elections expert Professor Sir John Curtice.

Research by the National Centre for Social Research claims that a majority (52 per cent) of British people currently want to stay inside the bloc while 48 per cent would opt to leave.

Scoondal

Enzokk wrote: »

Well all polling seems to show that staying in the EU would win now if a vote was held. This is before the arguments on the economic benefits and this time there would be no lying like they did last time. The likes of Farage and Rees Mogg and Davis will have to tell the truth about the single market and whether they would have access to it and not pay for it (Johnson in case you didn't know who said that).

But you are correct that a vote was held. There is also the quite large matter that the Leave campaign massively overspent and you can be sure there would be other breaches of laws to be found if only people wanted to look for them.

But this is neither here nor there. The problem has always been and will always be the border between the EU and the UK. Yes, the only land border shared. Unfortunately this can only be settled in one of two ways. Break an international treaty, or have different regulatory and customs tariffs if the UK wants to leave the EU. We could have 50 votes but these facts will not change and they will not be solved by magical solutions.


Brexit: Remain would be ahead in fresh EU referendum, new polls tracker suggests

The UK / EU border was foremost in the minds of UK citizens voting to leave EU. They said that they wanted to "control our borders". So UK citizens voted to have controls on the border in Ireland. They want controls on the border. They voted for it and there absolutlely nothing that the Irish government or EU can do about the wishes of the UK people to have "Control of our borders".
This "backstop" agreement is nonsense and not what those people voted for. They want to control their borders.

Rhineshark

Scoondal wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/british-expats-in-ireland-you-can-t-be-a-stuck-up-brit-1.2739028
This is a good example of the stupidity of UK Brexit voters.
They really think that Ireland is not a totally independant country. Lovely people of course, but living in some deluded reality.
THIS is what we are dealing with regarding UK citizens' vote to leave EU.

Which one, the first couple? Most were pretty reasonable people giving an outside-inside perspective, and a lot of it we'd admit ourselves! It's interesting though that a few mentioned how little they has been taught or picked up about Irish history before moving here. The first pair were the ones I rolled my eyes most at, although there was the one talking about Catholicism in Ireland too.

I don't recall any of them that didn't seem to realise it was an independent and seperate country though? No-one specifically references it, only mentioning it context of "another country" or comparing to their home country.

None of them seem particularly concerned about Brexit but it is generally accepted that due to the CTA, RoI and UK citizens in each other's countries don't need to be too worried.

RobMc59

Scoondal wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/british-expats-in-ireland-you-can-t-be-a-stuck-up-brit-1.2739028
This is a good example of the stupidity of UK Brexit voters.
They really think that Ireland is not a totally independant country. Lovely people of course, but living in some deluded reality.
THIS is what we are dealing with regarding UK citizens' vote to leave EU.

You appear to have issues with the UK which go beyond discussing the pros and cons of brexit,which you are of course entitled to but to be honest,I don`t think the people who voted to leave the EU in 2016 did it to spite Ireland.Like I`ve said earlier people in the UK were lied to by people like boris johnson who said it would be better out of the EU which is obviously untrue.

Scoondal

Rhineshark wrote: »

Which one, the first couple? Most were pretty reasonable people giving an outside-inside perspective, and a lot of it we'd admit ourselves! It's interesting though that a few mentioned how little they has been taught or picked up about Irish history before moving here. The first pair were the ones I rolled my eyes most at, although there was the one talking about Catholicism in Ireland too.

I don't recall any of them that didn't seem to realise it was an independent and seperate country though? No-one specifically references it, only mentioning it context of "another country" or comparing to their home country.

None of them seem particularly concerned about Brexit but it is generally accepted that due to the CTA, RoI and UK citizens in each other's countries don't need to be too worried.

Yes. I meant the lovely people who had lived in France for 19 years. They wanted to move back to the British Isles. They were in favour of Brexit, but would not want to live there. They only wanted to live in EU countries, but suppoerted Brexit. That is what we are dealing with.

Scoondal

RobMc59 wrote: »

You appear to have issues with the UK which go beyond discussing the pros and cons of brexit,which you are of course entitled to but to be honest,I don`t think the people who voted to leave the EU in 2016 did it to spite Ireland.Like I`ve said earlier people in the UK were lied to by people like boris johnson who said it would be better out of the EU which is obviously untrue.

One of the core issues in the Brexit vote was "To control our borders". That is what they want ... border controls.
Now, I could tell you about the time that UK Border Control reluctantly gave my wife a visa to go from Terminal 3 in Heathrow to Terminal 1 but that would be off topic. Ireland cannot be part of the Schengan Agreement because UK will not sign up to it.

Rhineshark

Scoondal wrote: »

Yes. I meant the lovely people who had lived in France for 19 years. They wanted to move back to the British Isles. They were in favour of Brexit, but would not want to live there. They only wanted to live in EU countries, but suppoerted Brexit. That is what we are dealing with.

Well, that was one couple out of a fair number of accounts tbf.

But yeah, there is a very bloody-minded streak in the Brexiter crowd. And they don't mind being self-contradictory either.

Folkstonian

Scoondal wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

You appear to have issues with the UK which go beyond discussing the pros and cons of brexit,which you are of course entitled to but to be honest,I don`t think the people who voted to leave the EU in 2016 did it to spite Ireland.Like I`ve said earlier people in the UK were lied to by people like boris johnson who said it would be better out of the EU which is obviously untrue.

One of the core issues in the Brexit vote was "To control our borders". That is what they want ... border controls.
Now, I could tell you about the time that UK Border Control reluctantly gave my wife a visa to go from Terminal 3 in Heathrow to Terminal 1 but that would be off topic. Ireland cannot be part of the Schengan Agreement because UK will not sign up to it.

That just sounds like you completely failed to plan for the fact that your wife would need to apply for a transit visa in advance to enter the U.K. and the border staff did you a kind favour in all honesty!

Spook_ie

An Claidheamh wrote: »

That sort of talk is the same nonsense the UK claim about themselves and the US.
It appears to be one way.

We don't have that much in common, they're a monarchy, post Imperialist jingoistic and unhappy divided country, still upset about the Vatican.

Clearly, they don't like Ireland.
We can't be expected to like them.

If they sent a nuclear bomb our way, you'd have someone on here or the Indo telling us we should thank them for free heating.

We rely on credit, the markets, the beef industry, Fdi, the EU - but we don't 'rely' on them.

The North on the other hand, needs their subsidies and our facilities, Dublin airport for instance.

Belfast has 2 airports, the only advantage to using Dublin for them is US pre clearence

Enzokk

Scoondal wrote: »

The UK / EU border was foremost in the minds of UK citizens voting to leave EU. They said that they wanted to "control our borders". So UK citizens voted to have controls on the border in Ireland. They want controls on the border. They voted for it and there absolutlely nothing that the Irish government or EU can do about the wishes of the UK people to have "Control of our borders".
This "backstop" agreement is nonsense and not what those people voted for. They want to control their borders.

The backstop agreement is not nonsense, unless you think the GFA is nonsense. If there was no border to be worried about or there was no GFA I think we would have comfortably been on to the future relationship already. But seeing as we are dealing with unique circumstances, it means we are stuck with the problem we have right now. This problem didn't just suddenly crop up, it should have been obvious for any politician from the UK.

A Dub in Glasgo

Spook_ie wrote: »

Belfast has 2 airports, the only advantage to using Dublin for them is US pre clearence

and the amount of destinations surely?

Enzokk

Spook_ie wrote: »

Belfast has 2 airports, the only advantage to using Dublin for them is US pre clearence

You can have as many airports as you like, if they don't provide the same connectivity then you will need to use an airport that has the connections or flights you are looking for. With 2 airports you would think it is possible to have more destinations but there are other factors that determine this.

As an example Dublin Airport offers direct flights to Hong Kong, Dubai, Doha, Istanbul, Frankfurt. They also offer more airline flights, so while you could catch a Easyjet flight from Belfast to Paris and then onto a Air France flight with their many connections if you have a delay and you miss your international flight you will not be helped by the airline. However if your flight is booked with Air France from Dublin and there is a problem on your connecting flight then the airline will help you out to get you to your destination. So Dublin does offer more advantages for air travel unless you fly from Belfast on either British Airways or KLM and then we have to look at what the connections are like for their onward destinations.

Scoondal

UK signed up to "Backstop" last December. More importantly UK signed up to "The Good Friday Agreement", which was internationally recognised. Now they want to change these agreements. Okay UK, let's renegotiate an internationally acclaimed peace agreement. UK are showing themselves as an idiot country. The facts of what they are proposing are laughable on a world stage.

Spook_ie

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

and the amount of destinations surely?

Dunno seems plenty of choice unless you want to go on a direct US flight to Atlanta etc.


https://www.belfastairport.com/flights/our-airlines

https://www.belfastcityairport.com/Flight-Information/Routes

Junkyard Tom

Spook_ie wrote: »

Belfast has 2 airports, the only advantage to using Dublin for them is US pre clearence

The north is one of the poorest regions in all of northern Europe. It would rank 44th on the UN Human Development Index with Ireland coming in at 8th.

Norwegian Air cancelled its Belfast flights to the US and recommended that US bound passengers use its other services in Dublin. Dublin international Airport attracts nearly six times the number of yearly passengers that Belfast does.

The north hasn't had a government for a record period of time. The north lags behind just about everywhere in Europe for rights that are being blocked by unionists.

Really, the north is an utter mess.

Scoondal

Enzokk wrote: »

You can have as many airports as you like, if they don't provide the same connectivity then you will need to use an airport that has the connections or flights you are looking for. With 2 airports you would think it is possible to have more destinations but there are other factors that determine this.

As an example Dublin Airport offers direct flights to Hong Kong, Dubai, Doha, Istanbul, Frankfurt. They also offer more airline flights, so while you could catch a Easyjet flight from Belfast to Paris and then onto a Air France flight with their many connections if you have a delay and you miss your international flight you will not be helped by the airline. However if your flight is booked with Air France from Dublin and there is a problem on your connecting flight then the airline will help you out to get you to your destination. So Dublin does offer more advantages for air travel unless you fly from Belfast on either British Airways or KLM and then we have to look at what the connections are like for their onward destinations.

If there is a "no deal Brexit" the nordies will all suddenly like the Republic for their holiday flights.
They're British when it suits them and Irish when it suits them.

Rhineshark

Spook_ie wrote: »

Belfast has 2 airports, the only advantage to using Dublin for them is US pre clearence

However, one of those does appear to be particularly disliked and is unreliable for evening flights. https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/09/28/to-add-to-belfast-international-airports-woes-what-is-going-on-with-easyjet/

And the other is Belfast International.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/belfast-international-airport-apology-after-chaotic-delays-at-security-checks-37371533.html

https://www.irishnews.com/news/2018/09/25/news/belfast-international-slams-norwegian-air-as-airline-pulls-north-american-flights-1441467/

I can see why a train journey down to Dublin might be appealing from a practical point of view.

Spook_ie

Scoondal wrote: »

If there is a "no deal Brexit" the nordies will all suddenly like the Republic for their holiday flights.
They're British when it suits them and Irish when it suits them.

Interesting how they suddenly become Nordies when it suits instead of part of the GFA

Perhaps the island of Ireland still has a longer way to travel than some people like to think