Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

RobMc59

Scoondal wrote: »

If UK citizens voted for border control, Ireland or EU cannot prevent that. They want borders, not Ireland and not EU. Give it to them. And then those people should just go away and stop bothering us.

It will be hilarious if Britain eventually stay in the EU as some people appear to have extreme anglophobia here and will be devastated!-how does that fit into the European ideal?

Enzokk

Rhineshark wrote: »

Oh for heaven's sake, again? I thought the ERG already did that anyway?

I guess they didn't if they are trying to do this now. The rest of that thread is very interesting. Basically Steve Baker is the head of the ERG group and with this amendment he is trying to force Theresa May to choose between getting a negotiated deal or keeping the integrity of the UK together.

Someone noted in one of the comments, it was the Brexiteers that was warning the EU would make NI into a weapon to be used in the negotiations, and yet what are they doing now?

LeinsterDub

Enzokk wrote: »

I guess they didn't if they are trying to do this now. The rest of that thread is very interesting. Basically Steve Baker is the head of the ERG group and with this amendment he is trying to force Theresa May to choose between getting a negotiated deal or keeping the integrity of the UK together.

Someone noted in one of the comments, it was the Brexiteers that was warning the EU would make NI into a weapon to be used in the negotiations, and yet what are they doing now?

They voted to make the Irish sea border illegal. Nothing to do with the backstop

LeinsterDub

RobMc59 wrote: »

It will be hilarious if Britain eventually stay in the EU as some people appear to have extreme anglophobia here and will be devastated!-how does that fit into the European ideal?

That's hardly anglophobia its just one of the consequences of ending freedom of movement

kunst nugget

RobMc59 wrote: »

It will be hilarious if Britain eventually stay in the EU as some people appear to have extreme anglophobia here and will be devastated!-how does that fit into the European ideal?

It's not Angloohobia - the UK pulling out of the EU is going to have major consequences for us and people here are rightfully pissed off about it. We're getting directly caught in the blast of the bomb our neighbours are setting off.

Rhineshark

kunst nugget wrote: »

It's not Angloohobia - the UK pulling out of the EU is going to have major consequences for us and people here are rightfully pissed off about it. We're getting directly caught in the blast of the bomb our neighbours are setting off.

It's even more annoying when it's a bomb that's going to destroy them and really has no upsides at all. If they were actually en route to milk and honey, it would still be an unfriendly act, but one could understand it as just selfish me-firstness. Being collateral damage to wanton self-destruction is even more aggravating.

Not really anglophobia to object, although Scoondal is a bit over the top, more well-founded angloirritation.

charlie14

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Well a border is likely with the way things are going at the moment. This way NI and Ireland get a second say.
I'd expect NI to vote to join Ireland. I don't think it's going to go great for them after Brexit.

Unfortunately even after 20 years of relative peace NI is still deeply divided along sectarian lines and that is how in the main they vote. In the UK referendum vote nationalists voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. Some quite possibly because they felt they wished to be members of the EU, but I would suspect most did so because they felt in would bring a UI closer.
Unionists by and large voted leave as a means of preventing that, even if it meant the house burning down around their ears. Some unionists voted remain which somewhat distorted the usual voting pattern because they believed they were better off as members. But that has to be viewed imo in the context that they voted for the UK to remain.
If anytime in the foreseeable future there was a vote on NI staying in the EU by means of a UI then in all honesty from knowing just how divided a society it is, I could see nothing other that those unionist remain voters en masse taking up residency in the burning house.

Enzokk

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They voted to make the Irish sea border illegal. Nothing to do with the backstop

Is that not the same thing? The backstop will, if the UK doesn't agree to be in the customs union and single market, have an Irish sea border, or am I missing something?

MrMusician18

RobMc59 wrote: »

It will be hilarious if Britain eventually stay in the EU as some people appear to have extreme anglophobia here and will be devastated!-how does that fit into the European ideal?

If someone had extreme abglophobia, if say they'd be delighted that this little Englander project totally failed by not happening.

Charles Babbage

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The biggest problem with the idea is that even in five years time, there would still be a pro-union majority (albeit narrow) in NI, but unionists themselves don't want a hard Border.

It is hard to say, because the middle ground voters are now pro UI in a way they never were before. But the main problem with proposal if in 5 years you get 48% favour a UI, then with demographic shifts that would mean a UI majority in 7 years. Yet this proposal would treat that as a mandate for a hard border when everyone knew NI was on the way out anyway.

LeinsterDub

Enzokk wrote: »

Is that not the same thing? The backstop will, if the UK doesn't agree to be in the customs union and single market, have an Irish sea border, or am I missing something?

In effect yes if they agree to the back stop the Irish sea border is the most likely outcome however the UK would argue they have other solutions.

Strazdas

RobMc59 wrote: »

It will be hilarious if Britain eventually stay in the EU as some people appear to have extreme anglophobia here and will be devastated!-how does that fit into the European ideal?

Brexitophobia - those guys only speak for a certain section of British society not the entirety of the UK nation (48% voted to remain in the EU).

An Ciarraioch

The march organisers claim an attendance of 570,000 - will be interesting to see a Met Police estimate.

BonnieSituation

John Calm Ballerina wrote: »

Approx 180 destinations out of Dublin, 50 out of Belfast.

That was my favourite straw man yet.

Dublin Airport has nearly 30m passengers use it every year. It's not comparable to those 2 regional hovels in Antrim.

I'd suggest our partitionist friend check out the aircoaches from glengall st in the early morning and see who's on them...

Madness.

Water John

Brexiteers had to stage an alternative gathering to get Farage on the TV on the same day.

ancapailldorcha

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The march organisers claim an attendance of 570,000 - will be interesting to see a Met Police estimate.

A lot of people here have told me that there's a much bigger turnout than last time for what that's worth.

Kermit.de.frog

How do you all think this ammendment to the NI bill will go in Westminister next week?

Seems like a big dilemma.

If approved by MP's it's effectively the same as saying no deal.

RobMc59

MrMusician18 wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

It will be hilarious if Britain eventually stay in the EU as some people appear to have extreme anglophobia here and will be devastated!-how does that fit into the European ideal?

If someone had extreme abglophobia, if say they'd be delighted that this little Englander project totally failed by not happening.

But would that ultimately be a good thing for Ireland?

Enzokk

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The march organisers claim an attendance of 570,000 - will be interesting to see a Met Police estimate.

Seems that the estimates have gone up to 670 000.

https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_hq/status/1053645920611586049

An Ciarraioch

RobMc59 wrote: »

MrMusician18 wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

It will be hilarious if Britain eventually stay in the EU as some people appear to have extreme anglophobia here and will be devastated!-how does that fit into the European ideal?

If someone had extreme abglophobia, if say they'd be delighted that this little Englander project totally failed by not happening.

But would that ultimately be a good thing for Ireland?

The best thing for Ireland is not just EU membership, but to maintain as close a relationship with the UK as circumstances allow. Most Irish people get on perfectly well with British people, it's the dysfunctionality of the UK political system since the referendum with which they have a problem. As for how it fits into the European ideal, a UK that decided to remain in the EU would serve as a check on federalism, which would be beneficial for smaller pro-European members.

RobMc59

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

MrMusician18 wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

It will be hilarious if Britain eventually stay in the EU as some people appear to have extreme anglophobia here and will be devastated!-how does that fit into the European ideal?

If someone had extreme abglophobia, if say they'd be delighted that this little Englander project totally failed by not happening.

But would that ultimately be a good thing for Ireland?

The best thing for Ireland is not just EU membership, but to maintain as close a relationship with the UK as circumstances allow. Most Irish people get on perfectly well with British people, it's the dysfunctionality of the UK political system since the referendum with which they have a problem. As for how it fits into the European ideal, a UK that decided to remain in the EU would serve as a check on federalism, which would be beneficial for smaller pro-European members.

That is a very good point,although the EU does tend to fire out its edicts which MUST be obeyed-overall though it's been a good thing for Europe.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

That is a very good point,although the EU does tend to fire out its edicts which MUST be obeyed-overall though it's been a good thing for Europe.

Unlike national governments who only ever do what the electorate told them to?

The UK government do even want to give the electorate a say on the final deal, isn't that an edict?

And what is the alternative for the EU? At present each of the 27 countries have varying levels of power across certain areas, so decisions made are passed through whatever process has been agreed. Are you suggesting that individual countries should be free to follow or disregard whatever rules they like? That would be chaos

road_high

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That was my favourite straw man yet.

Dublin Airport has nearly 30m passengers use it every year. It's not comparable to those 2 regional hovels in Antrim.

I'd suggest our partitionist friend check out the aircoaches from glengall st in the early morning and see who's on them...

Madness.

Or Dublin airport car parks! Many of them uk bound flights- the irony completely lost on them of course!
Dublin is a major European airport, Belfast’s are small regional ones naively local domestic routes.

lawred2

Enzokk wrote: »

Seems that the estimates have gone up to 670 000.

https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_hq/status/1053645920611586049

In the responses

Check out @mediafriendly’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/mediafriendly/status/1053663155614674945?s=09

Is that met estimate official or bs?

An Ciarraioch

lawred2 wrote: »

Enzokk wrote: »

Seems that the estimates have gone up to 670 000.

https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_hq/status/1053645920611586049

In the responses

Check out @mediafriendly’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/mediafriendly/status/1053663155614674945?s=09

Is that met estimate official or bs?

It said in the Guardian that Scotland Yard no longer estimate the size of protests.

McGiver

Folkstonian wrote:

I’d also argue that in all instances of British exceptionalism, Britain has never actually been wholly exceptional at all in its demands, whether that be opposition to the euro, or schengen, or certain elements of the European constitution etc, often being supported by smaller states who have been close allies to the British

Euro and Schengen are fundamental elements of the club, if you oppose fundamental rules of the club, you can hardly be a serious member.

EU budget contribution rebate - no other EU member state has this, exceptionalism check
Opt-out from the Schengen - no other EU member has that (RoI had to because of the UK/NI), exceptionalism check
Opt-out from the Euro - no other EU member state has that (Denmark has de factor Euro as DKK is pegged to EUR), exceptionalism check
Didn't ratify the Fiscal Compact - no other EU member state did so (Czechia didn't as well but that was more by accident and they will eventually ratify it) - exceptionalism check

Etc. But it's mostly about the attitude as in the UK is entitled to special treatment and shouldn't be treated equally as the other members state because it is... better?

RobMc59

Leroy42 wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

That is a very good point,although the EU does tend to fire out its edicts which MUST be obeyed-overall though it's been a good thing for Europe.

Unlike national governments who only ever do what the electorate told them to?

The UK government do even want to give the electorate a say on the final deal, isn't that an edict?

And what is the alternative for the EU? At present each of the 27 countries have varying levels of power across certain areas, so decisions made are passed through whatever process has been agreed. Are you suggesting that individual countries should be free to follow or disregard whatever rules they like? That would be chaos

I meant to say that overall EU membership is a good thing for the member countries,UK included,but there are drawbacks-I believe the reason a lot of people in the UK voted to leave was lies about how much greener the grass would be and also unchecked free movement of people which has caused concerns in a lot of countries.

tonycascarino

Enzokk wrote: »

Seems that the estimates have gone up to 670 000.

https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_hq/status/1053645920611586049

Marching against democracy in a democratic country, how strange. However, their marching doesn't matter a jot as Brexit is coming whether they like it or not.

Zubeneschamali

tonycascarino wrote: »

their marching doesn't matter a jot as Brexit is coming whether they like it or not.

Ah, democracy!

joe40

tonycascarino wrote: »

Enzokk wrote: »

Seems that the estimates have gone up to 670 000.https:/twitter.com/peoplesvote_hq/status/1053645920611586049

Marching against democracy in a democratic country, how strange. However, their marching doesn't matter a jot as Brexit is coming whether they like it or not.

It's not really marching against democracy. The referendum was advisory and critically it contained no information of the type of Brexit. No one knew if a leave vote neccessarily meant leaving the customs union.It was an extremely complex issue that is now throwing up problems not eve mentioned during the campaign. NI for one.It is perfectly democratic for people to now have an informed vote. We vote for a new government every four years, this vote will define Britain for generations. Real democracy is ensuring people make an informed decision.They are now in a position to do that.