Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Rhineshark

Folkstonian wrote: »

When people voted to take back control of borders I don’t think they meant to pull the drawbridge up and cut themselves off completely.

I’m sure you probably knew that though. The French have always had a unique way of doing diplomacy amongst their European neighbours anyway. Let’s not forget that there are many more French citizens than Irish citizens living in London nowadays, so cutting Britain adrift would cause hardship hundreds of thousands of their own citizens in England. It’s just silliness and won’t happen

Unfortunately for that theory, many of not all countries involved will actually follow the rules/trading laws.

The alternative is complaints lodged with the WTO and/or economic sanctions in the end.

Yes, it is silly. Unfortunately, the UK as a sovereign nation can exercise it's rights to be extremely silly. The rest of us, due to having a passing acquaintance with reality, will have to deal with it. We won't be dealing with it by joining the UK in fantasy land.

If the UK cut themselves adrift that is their own fault. It's a problem for all of us, but we can't solve their current dreamstate. We can only protect ourselves.

(And the way things are going, possibly organise humanitarian food drops.)

Leroy42

Folkstonian wrote: »

When people voted to take back control of borders I don’t think they meant to pull the drawbridge up and cut themselves off completely.

I’m sure you probably knew that though. The French have always had a unique way of doing diplomacy amongst their European neighbours anyway. Let’s not forget that there are many more French citizens than Irish citizens living in London nowadays, so cutting Britain adrift would cause hardship hundreds of thousands of their own citizens in England. It’s just silliness and won’t happen

What did they mean so? Taking back control means what?

They want to have full control over their borders, immigration etc is the Brexiteer line. But it fine for the UK to use EU citizens as bargaining chips, but the French as being unique in applying the law?

prawnsambo

Folkstonian wrote: »

When people voted to take back control of borders I don’t think they meant to pull the drawbridge up and cut themselves off completely.

I’m sure you probably knew that though. The French have always had a unique way of doing diplomacy amongst their European neighbours anyway. Let’s not forget that there are many more French citizens than Irish citizens living in London nowadays, so cutting Britain adrift would cause hardship hundreds of thousands of their own citizens in England. It’s just silliness and won’t happen

The 'story' is nonsense. It's kind of a chinese whisper that's grown out of the expected delays to freight with new customs controls. The French are currently working on expanding the holding areas at Calais and are advertising to have new infrastructure built. But because the government is considering 'acquiring' Ro-Ro ferries to help with the flow of freight (and I really don't know how that's going to work) it's now been conflated to some sort of blockade by the French.

seamus

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Shame they weren't so enthusiastic about doing their actual jobs.

This is so brass-necked I can barely get my head around it.

I think it's fair to say that there's a strong crossover between those who are anti-EU, and those who would complain about social welfare, "hard pressed middle classes", "idle layabouts on the dole".

And then UKIP attend the European Parliament, which they basically never bother doing, and their order of business is how much taxpayers money the EU will give them after Brexit.

They are the very embodiment of the work-shy leeches that they vilify to their base, and they are shameless about it.

Mc Love

PMQ's is fairly packed to the rafters

Mc Love

JRM with a Brexit question regarding the ECJ and TM saying the ECJ has no jurisdiction in the UK.

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1055059806573289472

Tories proposing nationalization, labour supporting policies that will harm workers rights. Left is right, right is left. Open racist in both parties. If all this is confusing remember all one thing remains constant. Brexit means brexit.

lawred2

Folkstonian wrote: »

When people voted to take back control of borders I don’t think they meant to pull the drawbridge up and cut themselves off completely.

I’m sure you probably knew that though. The French have always had a unique way of doing diplomacy amongst their European neighbours anyway. Let’s not forget that there are many more French citizens than Irish citizens living in London nowadays, so cutting Britain adrift would cause hardship hundreds of thousands of their own citizens in England. It’s just silliness and won’t happen

really?

all rhetoric and actions since attest to the opposite

Nody

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1055059806573289472

Tories proposing nationalization, labour supporting policies that will harm workers rights. Left is right, right is left. Open racist in both parties. If all this is confusing remember all one thing remains constant. Brexit means brexit.

I'm sorry but how stupid and into lala land are the UK government? I mean I know they have acted like complete pot heads with their ideas but seriously to suggest a state run flotilla for JIT deliveries? Did they miss the part where items must return to EU somehow (the whole crossing the border multiple times which was a key issue raised multiple times by the manufacturers in the first place)? Or are they so flipping incompetent that they think JIT only matters for what goes into the UK and if there's a big build up at the border that's ok because it's an EU country problem then because the UK factory could get it's stuff? This is stuff I can explain to a 10 year old and have them grasp why this would never work for crying out loud...

keane2097

How is this real life?

Infini

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It gets worse for UKIP:

https://twitter.com/juliegirling/status/1054769926106501121

Shame they weren't so enthusiastic about doing their actual jobs.

Dear UnitedKIP: Your all fired!

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1055059806573289472

Tories proposing nationalization, labour supporting policies that will harm workers rights. Left is right, right is left. Open racist in both parties. If all this is confusing remember all one thing remains constant. Brexit means brexit.

I'll be honest with the way thing's are going when talk's collapse and they will with this bunch of idiot's because they would be that stupid, the only way this will end is with a 2nd referendum. It's more likely now than at any point in the past and it's the only thing that can end this fiasco run by idiot's, muppet's and Gobshítes. If this doesn't happen we will probably be seeing a UI and Republic of Scotland sometime in the next decade otherwise.

prawnsambo

Nody wrote: »

I'm sorry but how stupid and into lala land are the UK government? I mean I know they have acted like complete pot heads with their ideas but seriously to suggest a state run flotilla for JIT deliveries? Did they miss the part where items must return to EU somehow (the whole crossing the border multiple times which was a key issue raised multiple times by the manufacturers in the first place)? Or are they so flipping incompetent that they think JIT only matters for what goes into the UK and if there's a big build up at the border that's ok because it's an EU country problem then because the UK factory could get it's stuff? This is stuff I can explain to a 10 year old and have them grasp why this would never work for crying out loud...

They're actually missing the step where the freight dwindles to match the capacity of the borders to process it.

Enzokk

Mc Love wrote: »

JRM with a Brexit question regarding the ECJ and TM saying the ECJ has no jurisdiction in the UK.

It's one step forward then Theresa May opens her thoughts to the world and we are two steps back again. Then later this week Olly Robbins will be negotiating a deal that will mean the ECJ will, naturally, have a say if the UK wants an integrated deal and then when it is leaked the ERG can get all upset again, all because May wants to keep herself in the job for another day/week/month/year.

So we find ourselves at almost exactly the same point as at the start of this sorry mess, the UK has an international treaty that they cannot break. They talk a lot about it but all their actions so far and even the ERG amendment that would have forced a break of the GFA was withdrawn, probably for this reason.

But they cannot get the agreement they need with the EU without those needless red lines from Theresa May. Just when it looks like she will be done for she appears to soften her stance towards one of those red lines to get the EU back on her side. But as soon as that information leaks she walks back on it in an answer like today to JRM or with a speech or article she writes.

And merrily we go towards the cliff, the EU by now have stopped their vehicle and is trying to get the UK to stop but there are forces that are pushing the car towards the cliff and the passengers in the car is stopping May from pushing the brake. And all we can do is stare and shake our heads.

Igotadose

Donald Tusk "clears the air" for those that don't get it: Brexiteers are responsible for 'bringing the border issue problem back.'

Not clear if he meant, "since we'd already agreed in December" or 'lately.' But he lays responsibility exactly where it is - with the Brexiteers

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1055036145501913088

10000maniacs

Folkstonian wrote: »

I’ve never quite understood the focus on this concept of ‘British exceptionalism’. Is it remarkable or distasteful that British PMs have gone to Europe looking for the best possible deal for Britain? Is that his or her primary duty?

There is never any talk of French or German exceptionalism despite the fact they are statistically proven to be among the very worst countries at implementing EU law that they don’t particularly like.

One set of rules for the others, and another for us.. that is surely the very definition of an exceptionalist attitude?

Britain actually does pretty well, for all the grumbling, at implementing and informing European legislation.

Never have I heard the French or Germans attacked for their exceptionalism in the same manner as the British are however.

It just seems like Britain is unfortunately an easy target for that kind of unfounded thing, and maybe that has fed into the mutual suspicion on both sides that got us into this absolute mess

I think the UK government don't get the concept that what they are asking for is a trading deal with the EU that is better than you can get if you are a member of the EU.
It is summed up quite nicely in this German TV comedy clip if you read between the crass bits.

prawnsambo

10000maniacs wrote: »

I think the UK government don't get the concept that what they are asking for is a trading deal with the EU that is better than you can get if you are a member of the EU.
It is summed up quite nicely in this German TV comedy clip if you read between the crass bits.

They've yet to get the fact that a withdrawal agreement does not include a trade deal. I'm actually pretty gobsmacked that nobody has pointed this out. The only thing in A50 that comes remotely close is an agreement on a 'framework' for a future relationship. There's nothing binding in this framework.

10000maniacs

prawnsambo wrote: »

They've yet to get the fact that a withdrawal agreement does not include a trade deal. I'm actually pretty gobsmacked that nobody has pointed this out. The only thing in A50 that comes remotely close is an agreement on a 'framework' for a future relationship. There's nothing binding in this framework.

Yeah, they will be treated as a third country under WTO rules and will have maximum tariffs applied to them and will have no trade deals with anybody.
It is baffling that hard brexiteers like Mogg and Johnson are campaigning for this scenario.

VinLieger

10000maniacs wrote: »

It is baffling that hard brexiteers like Mogg and Johnson are campaigning for this scenario.

Its really not when they are both likely setup to benefit personally through whatever dodgy business deals and arrangements they have organised.

Awesomeness

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1055011779628199937

Reassuring to see this when you hear a lot of talk of 90% and 95 % done.

Bottom line is if border is not sorted nothing is done

Leroy42

prawnsambo wrote: »

They've yet to get the fact that a withdrawal agreement does not include a trade deal. I'm actually pretty gobsmacked that nobody has pointed this out. The only thing in A50 that comes remotely close is an agreement on a 'framework' for a future relationship. There's nothing binding in this framework.

Oh they get it alright, and they have worked from Day 1 to try to get the two of them aligned. The December Agreement was signed, IMO, on the basis that it would move the negotiations onto more trade detailed talks.

Since that hasn't, and was never, going to happen, the UK are looking back at the December Agreement and seeing what they actually agreed to.

So whilst it might be a framework, in the UK's view it should be comprehensive and cover the major areas. A50 was never designed that way.

A50 was designed with the view of making things as difficult as possible in order to put off countries from triggering it. The never imagined that a country would not only trigger it but do so without any plan.

Professor Moriarty

10000maniacs wrote: »

Yeah, they will be treated as a third country under WTO rules and will have maximum tariffs applied to them and will have no trade deals with anybody.
It is baffling that hard brexiteers like Mogg and Johnson are campaigning for this scenario.

Not when you consider they are both Old Etonians who never had to worry about money and who never will have to worry about money. They have no understanding of real life and they simply don't care about the proles. Thus they can pursue a nationalistic fantasy without a care in the world.

prawnsambo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Not when you consider they are both Old Etonians who never had to worry about money and who never will have to worry about money. They have no understanding of real life and they simply don't care about the proles. Thus they can pursue a nationalistic fantasy without a care in the world.

I don't think JRM is an Old Etonian. He's a catholic and went to a catholic school iirc.
But they have a lot to gain from brexit. JRM's dad wrote a book called "Blood on the streets" espousing disaster capatilism. Then there's the EU tax dodging legislation coming down the tracks that many of them may have cause to fear.

Professor Moriarty

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't think JRM is an Old Etonian. He's a catholic and went to a catholic school iirc.
But they have a lot to gain from brexit. JRM's dad wrote a book called "Blood on the streets" espousing disaster capatilism. Then there's the EU tax dodging legislation coming down the tracks that many of them may have cause to fear.

Mogg is an Old Etonian, as is Johnson. Mogg's business has opened up an office in Dublin recently so all is well.

BonnieSituation

Awesomeness wrote: »

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1055011779628199937

Reassuring to see this when you hear a lot of talk of 90% and 95 % done.

Bottom line is if border is not sorted nothing is done

Seems like this bus we're meant to be thrown under will never materialise.

Leroy42

Awesomeness wrote: »

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1055011779628199937

Reassuring to see this when you hear a lot of talk of 90% and 95 % done.

Bottom line is if border is not sorted nothing is done

It is funny as the UK are very quick to keep telling everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed but then are also happy to claim that the deal is 80/90/95% done.

As Guy points out, until 100% it doesn't matter.

10000maniacs

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Not when you consider they are both Old Etonians who never had to worry about money and who never will have to worry about money. They have no understanding of real life and they simply don't care about the proles. Thus they can pursue a nationalistic fantasy without a care in the world.

But it's not only them. It seems to be only hard brexiteers the BBC seem to get on their political programmes. Why are these guys not challenged on the BBC?
I think its because the BBC interviewers don't understand what WTO third country tarriffs are and they have no concept of the amount of time in years it takes to iron out a trade deal with countries like the USA or Japan.
The interviewers never seem to have time to ask complicated questions on these issues and forensically quiz the brexiteer on their answer.
My conclusion is a hard Brexit is good for the BBC, the more bad news the better.

An Ciarraioch

Leroy42 wrote: »

Awesomeness wrote: »

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1055011779628199937

Reassuring to see this when you hear a lot of talk of 90% and 95 % done.

Bottom line is if border is not sorted nothing is done

It is funny as the UK are very quick to keep telling everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed but then are also happy to claim that the deal is 80/90/95% done.

As Guy points out, until 100% it doesn't matter.

And Donald Tusk replies in a similar vein:

http://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1055036145501913088

Professor Moriarty

10000maniacs wrote: »

But it's not only them. It seems to be only hard brexiteers the BBC seem to get on their political programmes. Why are these guys not challenged on the BBC?
I think its because the BBC interviewers don't understand what WTO third country tarriffs are and they have no concept of the amount of time in years it takes to iron out a trade deal with countries like the USA or Japan.
The interviewers never seem to have time to ask complicated questions on these issues and forensically quiz the brexiteer on their answer.
My conclusion is a hard Brexit is good for the BBC, the more bad news the better.

I don't think it's that as much as the BBC got a lot of criticism in recent years for being too Right/Left depending on your perspective. Thus they are ultra careful not to be seen to be asking awkward questions lest they be accused of being pro Brexit. Plus their headline news these days is peppered with fluff pieces.

J Mysterio

Hurrache wrote: »

Bleak discussions on the agriculture and food sector going on in the UK at the moment on Connelly's thread
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1055045525005889537

And a Brexiter has Godwin'd the negotiations with the EU. Not content with Soviet Russia comparisons, they've moved onto Nazis

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1055021953533272065

https://twitter.com/AlynSmith/status/1055008327531462657

The ignorance is absolutely mind blowing.

keane2097

J Mysterio wrote: »

The ignorance is absolutely mind blowing.

That's not ignorance it's trolling.