Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Kermit.de.frog

Strazdas wrote: »

Very much so. They voted to leave a mythological EU that they invented themselves - a corrupt bureaucratic dictatorship, 'the EUSSR' etc.

The 40 years of lies are about to catch up with them though. It's going to be a hellish experience having to acknowledge the lies when the edifice begins to collapse around them.

That's the silver lining and maybe it will be for the UK's own good. They are finding out just how exceptional they really aren't and it's on display for the world to see.

The whole thing is demeaning and embarrassing to a nation that ironically had so much going for it in the EU.

As Micheal Moore said speaking on the subject:

"Enoy life on your...eh...island"

Professor Moriarty

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They're not in anyway the same logistical challenges.

You forget why there would be "no hard border" in Ireland.

A hard border between England and Scotland is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Well it's hard to forget why there shouldn't be a hard border in Ireland! By 'logistical' I was thinking only about trade and the consequential flow of goods and people. Of course an Irish border has extra considerations which could also be considered 'logistical'.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Which begs the question-if the conditions you voted on have changed or you were misled,is`nt it reasonable to  think a second vote whether Scotland(remain in the UK) or Britain(remain in the EU) is a sensible option?

Absolutely! The Scots were told by Better Together that remaining in the UK was the only way to keep the pound, trade with the rest of the UK and EU membership. One of those promises was undone only a few years afterwards so, yes I think the SNP have grounds to seek a second Indyref even if it's against the will of so-called sovereignty-obsessed Tories.

Strazdas

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

That's the silver lining and maybe it will be for the UK's own good. They are finding out just how exceptional they really aren't and it's on display for the world to see.

The whole thing is demeaning and embarrassing to a nation that ironically had so much going for it in the EU.

As Micheal Moore said speaking on the subject:

"Enoy life on your...eh...island"

They're still in the denial phase but it's going to be impossible for them to cover up the debacle when it all unravels (very shortly). The whole world and its mother will know they have been greatly diminished by Brexit and no amount of chest thumping will be able to disguise it.

It should be fascinating to watch the national debate in a year or two. I imagine the Brexiteers will be under siege for the first time ever and having to defend themselves for the mess the country finds itself in.

Zubeneschamali

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think the SNP have grounds to seek a second Indyref even if it's against the will of so-called sovereignty-obsessed Tories.

I think the SNP are keeping quiet about a new Indyref the way SF are keeping quiet about a United Ireland.

Wait and see just how bad Brexit turns out to be - and start agitating when it looks worst.

Zubeneschamali

Strazdas wrote: »

They're still in the denial phase but it's going to be impossible for them to cover up the debacle when it all unravels (very shortly).

If there is a no-deal or a rapid transition to a FTA, I agree.

But in practice, I think the Tories will realize that these are far, far too damaging, and will end up in some Norway-with-a-long-transition-to-pie-in-the-sky Brexit.

Russia formally objecting to their WTO terms is significant I think, the first sign of the wolves circling, waiting to cut the UK away from the safety of the EU herd.

Strazdas

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If there is a no-deal or a rapid transition to a FTA, I agree.

But in practice, I think the Tories will realize that these are far, far too damaging, and will end up in some Norway-with-a-long-transition-to-pie-in-the-sky Brexit.

Russia formally objecting to their WTO terms is significant I think, the first sign of the wolves circling, waiting to cut the UK away from the safety of the EU herd.

Keep in mind that even a deal of some description and a transition phase from March onward will leave them worse off economically - this aspect is being largely glossed over. They will be outside the EU with no way back in and economists think they will take a big financial hit even under this scenario, never mind the nightmare scenario of No Deal.

Zubeneschamali

Strazdas wrote: »

Keep in mind that even a deal of some description and a transition phase from March onward will leave them worse off economically - this aspect is being largely glossed over.

I hear this phrased as an objection to Norway all the time - that they will be worse off than they are now.

But that is not an objection to Norway, it is an objection to every kind of Brexit. If they don't want to be worse off, they should remain.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

Which begs the question-if the conditions you voted on have changed or you were misled,is`nt it reasonable to  think a second vote whether Scotland(remain in the UK) or Britain(remain in the EU) is a sensible option?

Absolutely! The Scots were told by Better Together that remaining in the UK was the only way to keep the pound, trade with the rest of the UK and EU membership. One of those promises was undone only a few years afterwards so, yes I think the SNP have grounds to seek a second Indyref even if it's against the will of so-called sovereignty-obsessed Tories.

I agree and so should British voters be given a second chance to vote whether to stay in the EU as they were misled-although I was under the impression the EU has told Nicola Sturgeon that Scotland will remain part of the UK as per the referendum in Scotland.

RobMc59

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

Scotland had a referendum to remain part of the UK which as we are constantly being reminded on this forum regarding brexit is a democratic vote which MUST be respected.

Not on this forum, bar the odd 'why are the EU being such difficult bullies' poster.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Which begs the question-if the conditions you voted on have changed or you were misled,is`nt it reasonable to  think a second vote whether Scotland(remain in the UK) or Britain(remain in the EU) is a sensible option?

A referendum based on facts or lies that have changed / been exposed should not be held up as something sacred and immovable. The people should absolutely be offered a second referendum.

You`ve just proved my point-thank you.

Strazdas

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I hear this phrased as an objection to Norway all the time - that they will be worse off than they are now.

But that is not an objection to Norway, it is an objection to every kind of Brexit. If they don't want to be worse off, they should remain.

Some people seem to be assuming that once the transition phase kicks in, everything will be the same and that it will be as if the UK is still a full member of the Single Market and Customs Union. But Britain will now be outside the EU and this will be impacting on many aspects of the UK-EU relationship, even if it is not particularly visible. Economists reckon even full EEA membership would mean the economy taking a considerable hit, never mind anything else.

A Dub in Glasgo

RobMc59 wrote: »

Scotland had a referendum to remain part of the UK which as we are constantly being reminded on this forum regarding brexit is a democratic vote which MUST be respected.

https://twitter.com/uk_together/status/506899714923843584?lang=en

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If there is a no-deal or a rapid transition to a FTA, I agree.

But in practice, I think the Tories will realize that these are far, far too damaging, and will end up in some Norway-with-a-long-transition-to-pie-in-the-sky Brexit.

Russia formally objecting to their WTO terms is significant I think, the first sign of the wolves circling, waiting to cut the UK away from the safety of the EU herd.

In case people haven't seen it, this is well worth reading (originally posted by An Ciarrioch). It's an analysis of how Australia sees Brexit. A few samples:

The UK is likely to be the distressed negotiator, and it should be possible to extract significant concessions. Alternatively, it may be better to allow a major economy to negotiate those first, and then use the result of those negotiations as a baseline.

And:

There may be history between Australia and the UK, but nostalgia should not override trade realities. Australia should draw on recent developments to diversify its trade links with Europe and foster greater connections with EU, and non-EU, countries.

And:

Australia shouldn't get drawn into this Anglosphere British worldview against its interest, and it is possible the UK has both overestimated the desire of third countries to trade with it outside of the EU, and underestimated how long it will take to do meaningful deals.

A Dub in Glasgo

RobMc59 wrote: »

I was under the impression the EU has told Nicola Sturgeon that Scotland will remain part of the UK as per the referendum in Scotland.

The EU will not officially speak to Scotland as Scotland is part of the UK, not an independent state

Spook_ie

joeysoap wrote: »

If I remember correctly Scotland was told that the only way to remain in the EU was vote to stay in the UK?

At the time that would have been correct as if they left they would have had to negotiate their entry to the EU as a separate sovereign state, including monetary alignment and any other bits the EU require before accession.

anotherfinemess

Rhineshark wrote: »

1. The EU
2. Remainers
3. Ireland
4. Corbyn

5. Russia

Spook_ie

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Not really. The English/Scottish border is long established and not contentious like ours.

Might become contentious if it were a hard border.

A Dub in Glasgo

Spook_ie wrote: »

Might become contentious if it were a hard border.

It probably will but I am sure the technology as proposed by the Brexiteers will be ready by then :pac:

Rjd2

https://twitter.com/JamieJBartlett/status/1055362716569878528

Basically Corbyn has lost serious support in the 17-24 age group according to the above poll. The good news is The Tories no matter the leader are probably ****ed next election , however I suspect this age group have watched him try and play both sides regarding Brexit and are understandably fuming no matter how much the likes of Owen Jones etc tries to spin it.

The longer he plays that game, I think unions and young left wingers will get more and more pissed off. The more we learn about how difficult Brexit will be, his stance may be political suicide.

That's one thing I'd love about a second vote, what would Corbyn and May do? Both were soft remainers who were not on the front lines and have tried to keep both sides happy with at best moderate support.

Rhineshark

A note on Scotland and Spanish difficulties: back in 2016 Rajoy was in charge and making an absolute pig's ear of Catalonia. He was pretty hardline and was shaping up that was in Gibraltar. He would have been trouble if he thought it would encourage his unhappy regions. But since then the new guy whose name I've currently forgotten seems to be a lot more conciliatory.

I don't think if the UK make a mull of Brexit and Scotland hikes off over it, Spain, France or Italy would put particular difficulties in the way. They all know that the UK has been thoroughly unreasonable since, including to Scotland.

breatheme

Rajoy also stated he would not block Scotland from entering the EU, as long as they got independence in an arranged, constitutional and democratic matter.

Strazdas

Rjd2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JamieJBartlett/status/1055362716569878528

Basically Corbyn has lost serious support in the 17-24 age group according to the above poll. The good news is The Tories no matter the leader are probably ****ed next election , however I suspect this age group have watched him try and play both sides regarding Brexit and are understandably fuming no matter how much the likes of Owen Jones etc tries to spin it.

The longer he plays that game, I think unions and young left wingers will get more and more pissed off. The more we learn about how difficult Brexit will be, his stance may be political suicide.

That's one thing I'd love about a second vote, what would Corbyn and May do? Both were soft remainers who were not on the front lines and have tried to keep both sides happy with at best moderate support.

Corbyn has been an utter disaster on Brexit. The field was wide open for an opposition leader to tear Brexit to shreds for the last 18 months and probably sweep to power, but in an incredible stroke of bad luck for Britain, Labour is led by a left wing Europhobe who hates the EU as much as Rees-Mogg & Co.

judeboy101

Rhineshark wrote: »

A note on Scotland and Spanish difficulties: back in 2016 Rajoy was in charge and making an absolute pig's ear of Catalonia. He was pretty hardline and was shaping up that was in Gibraltar. He would have been trouble if he thought it would encourage his unhappy regions. But since then the new guy whose name I've currently forgotten seems to be a lot more conciliatory.

I don't think if the UK make a mull of Brexit and Scotland hikes off over it, Spain, France or Italy would put particular difficulties in the way. They all know that the UK has been thoroughly unreasonable since, including to Scotland.

We should block their application. Why have another country with a young well educated English speaking country in the club. Text book case of turkeys voting for Xmas.

swampgas

judeboy101 wrote: »

We should block their application. Why have another country with a young well educated English speaking country in the club. Text book case of turkeys voting for Xmas.

I'd prefer to cooperate with our neighbours. Do you even understand why the EU was created in the first place?

BonnieSituation

Rjd2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JamieJBartlett/status/1055362716569878528

Basically Corbyn has lost serious support in the 17-24 age group according to the above poll. The good news is The Tories no matter the leader are probably ****ed next election , however I suspect this age group have watched him try and play both sides regarding Brexit and are understandably fuming no matter how much the likes of Owen Jones etc tries to spin it.

The longer he plays that game, I think unions and young left wingers will get more and more pissed off. The more we learn about how difficult Brexit will be, his stance may be political suicide.

That's one thing I'd love about a second vote, what would Corbyn and May do? Both were soft remainers who were not on the front lines and have tried to keep both sides happy with at best moderate support.

I was embarrassed to be stuck in that embarrassing crowd cheering for Jezza at Glastonbury in 2017. It was horrific listening to them shout for their own demise. Frightening.

Thankfully the truth willed out in the end.

mrbrianj

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think the SNP are keeping quiet about a new Indyref the way SF are keeping quiet about a United Ireland.

Wait and see just how bad Brexit turns out to be - and start agitating when it looks worst.

Or if Brexit is a wonderful success for the UK- it will provide a useful template for the SNP for breaking away from a union. If the UK could step away from the EU, so can Scotland from the UK.

Either outcome of Brexit plays into the SNP's hands.

Rhineshark

judeboy101 wrote: »

We should block their application. Why have another country with a young well educated English speaking country in the club. Text book case of turkeys voting for Xmas.

Because the EU is about strength in unity, not seeking to better ourselves specifically at the expense of our neighbours.

But if it *has* to be "what can Scotland do for us", it would be handy to have that land bridge to the continent.

mrbrianj

swampgas wrote: »

I'd prefer to cooperate with our neighbours. Do you even understand why the EU was created in the first place?

Another voice at the table with regional interests that align with ours.

murphaph

judeboy101 wrote: »

We should block their application. Why have another country with a young well educated English speaking country in the club. Text book case of turkeys voting for Xmas.

Jesus Christ. Yeah they would be a competitor for FDI but for heaven's sake we couldn't countenance doing anything than strongly supporting a country that never wanted to leave our union in the first place. I'd be most ashamed of Ireland caused any problems for Scotland.

lawred2

Rhineshark wrote: »

Because the EU is about strength in unity, not seeking to better ourselves specifically at the expense of our neighbours.

But if it *has* to be "what can Scotland do for us", it would be handy to have that land bridge to the continent.

How would Scotland give Ireland a land bridge to the continent?