Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

flutered

Rhineshark wrote: »

Headshot wrote: »

So what was the story with the DUP and the UK budget today?

They said they'd support it as of 9hrs ago. Not heard any outbursts since.

i believe the critical vote is on thursday

flutered

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I think there is a better than 50\50 chance the DUP may be cast aside after the budget for a deal.

She was never going to make a move before the budget.

there will be no move until during or after the november break

flutered

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I think there is a better than 50\50 chance the DUP may be cast aside after the budget for a deal.

She was never going to make a move before the budget.

there will be no move until during or after the november break

Rhineshark wrote: »

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Dodgy link above. It should be...
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1056831744937213953

Oh the coin!

Yeah, right up there with blue passports and the Brexit street party in terms of silly fripperies to distract from all the really serious issues that need sorting.

So I assume there'll be a Brexit postage stamp next.

methinks this got the cold shoulder, the p.o. has been privitised and not under the wing of the uk gov

ancapailldorcha

I think that it is getting harder and harder to distinguish Brexit from a religion. It's already showing disturbingly similar characteristics and like any decent pathogen, it's quickly acquired resistance to that which might kill it, ie facts.

It has it's Messiah, David Cameron along with his twelve apostles; Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage, John Redwood, Liam Fox, Arron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Gisela Stuart, Kate Hoey, Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell. Ok, I'm sort of stretching a bit there but I think my point holds.

If any awful heretics dare to criticise the one true faith, simply throw out one of several effective tropes such as “Remoaner”, “London liberal elite”, “Naysayer” or “Undemocratic”. We did have a vote after all. The latter needs to be hammered home as much as possible as if the last 2.5 years or so never happened.

Though Brexit has gone from being glorious and great to simply being the banal will of the people, whatever that is, it's still being clung to with all the desperation of an unfortunately climber hanging off a cliff.

I honestly don't know what it'll take. Nothing, even some of the absolute belters from leave politicians like Jacob “50 years to reap the benefits of Brexit” Rees-Mogg have dented this thing when, in a country with a functioning politics it'd have been the killing blow.

Then you have the likes of Tory MP Andrew Bridgen saying that all British people are automatically entitled to an Irish Passport.

I don't know anymore. I really, really don't. It's a disaster which is slowly unfolding. Anyone thinking about it might vote remain in a people's vote but these are the sort of people who are taking the time to read about how the friggin' EU actually works and what the exact nature of Britain's relationship with it is. I get the sense that your average voter is just fed up a lá Brenda from Bristol. In fairness, since 2013 there have been two sets of local elections, two general elections, a referendum which was bitterly divisive with a second for the Scots and elections for the European Parliament.

I attended the People's Vote march earlier this month. There was a refreshing amount of older people at it but I recall a chap at the end with a megaphone who, as I arrived at Trafalgar Square after the march was screaming abuse at some chap who'd had the audacity to ask him to name the Secretary of State for Education. Megaphone man had just been extolling the virtues of democracy at that point and didn't care for been shown to be coming up short. I recall having a bitter row with my London dwelling, property portfolio-owning aunt who'd been wittering on about kids in a local school being unable to speak English and Muslims while her friend whose biggest concern at the time was choosing a set of antique taps for her upstairs bathroom decided to illuminate me on London's “N*gger problem”[sic].

Again, I'm painting with a colossal specimen of a brush there. I believe that most people who voted Leave are neither racist, bigoted or stupid. But I don't think it's fair to say that some of them were misled. I don't think a capacity to be misled makes an individual stupid. Would you say that con artists' victims are all stupid? Take fishermen. I can see why they'd vote leave but now they are in a situation where they might lose access to the market that takes 75% of their catches. Disgruntled steelworkers might be interested in finding out that the Conservative party vetoed attempts by the EU to place tariffs on dumping of Chinese steel.

I could go on but it seems that a lot of the problems facing this country are either of its own making like neoliberalism-driven inequality, food bank use caused by austerity, a glut of McJobs or rampant poverty in the North of England, the Midlands, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland which incidentally are some of the poorest regions in the EU. Some aren't like automation eliminating many low skilled jobs or the demands of an ageing population. Working through the EU and better government, starting with a functioning electoral system would have yielded much better results than Brexit but sadly that's what the upper caste of British society wants and what oligarchs, Lords and shadowy hedge-fund managers want, they get. And that is the biggest obstacle facing an informed vote by the public on the biggest diplomatic challenge facing this nation since the second World War.

McGiver

charlie14 wrote:

Russia would not be alone in that.

And the Chinese as well but they go about it by buying assets rather than hybrid war a la Russia or economic pressure a pa Trumpist USA.

Capt'n Midnight

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Take fishermen. I can see why they'd vote leave but now they are in a situation where they might lose access to the market that takes 75% of their catches. Disgruntled steelworkers might be interested in finding out that the Conservative party vetoed attempts by the EU to place tariffs on dumping of Chinese steel.

Two important facts

Grove will shaft the fishermen. It's too depressing to look up. There's a dingy in a harbour on the south coast that has a bigger quota that the entire UK inshore fleet. Grove has said that foreign boats will continue to be allowed in because the UK fleet is too small. No prizes for guessing why the UK fleet is so small when foreign trawlers don't , contrary to existing rules, land their catch in the UK. And those caught overfishing don't get banned or have their quota removed. Just like immigration THE EXISTING RULES AREN'T BEING USED.
“We do not intend to change the method for allocating existing quota.”

Small-scale coastal fishermen, who operate 80% of Scottish boats, have to make do with 1% of quotas



It was necessary to shaft the EU steel industry, because doing so could save the average UK household FOUR POUNDS EIGHTY on shoes over the course of an entire year.

Bonus points for guessing which European country faces a €2.7Bn fine over China dumping textiles and FOOTWEAR into the EU.

It's farcical.

briany

charlie14 wrote: »

Russia would not be alone in that.

The present US administration would also love to see the EU fracture and they do not appear to give a toss for NATO either.
As to history and WW2. Russian soldiers killed or missing 11,000,000. USA killed or missing 400,000.
Without Russia in WW2 the Allied invasion of Europe would have been either impossible or would have resulted in massive casualties.
Sometimes like the present situation in Syria and ISIS, Russia can actually be the lesser of two evils.

Fair enough that the U.S. and Russia want to see the EU fracture in the sense of this is how the game of global dominance is played, ugly as it can be.

But there is a huge blindside in their propaganda to this end in that their countries are massive unions themselves, and are far more integrated than the EU is. You can bet their governments do not look kindly on the idea of secession for any of their own constituent states/republics. They're so transparent in their true reasoning behind their rhetoric that a bit of old-fashioned colonial candour would be quite welcome.

Enzokk

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It has it's Messiah, David Cameron along with his twelve apostles; Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage, John Redwood, Liam Fox, Arron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Gisela Stuart, Kate Hoey, Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell. Ok, I'm sort of stretching a bit there but I think my point holds.

You missed out a few more vocal and much more Brexit ministers than Corbyn and McDonnell if you were looking for people that believe in Brexit. You forgot Daniel Hannan, David Davis and Ian Duncan Smith who all seem much more focused on getting a hard Brexit than the Labour leaders.

I hope that Corbyn and McDonnell knows that even if they have reservations about Brexit they would be selling the workers they claim to represent down the river ultimately if it proceeds. They are also in the awkward position that most of their members and voters don't care for Brexit. Yes there is a Leave Labour vote out there, but it isn't nearly as big as those who oppose it. Then again the low depths politicians will stoop to these days means it will not be a surprise to me if Labour actually pursue a hard Brexit themselves against the wishes of the PLP or the members.

Just as an aside, the Remainiacs podcast had an interesting point where they picked up that the UK has always had a different perspective on peace in Europe. While people dies and suffered, they were the only country in Europe to actually see both the wars as victories and not as something to never happen again. They would actually be happy to have those feelings of victory repeated while those on the continent seem much more focused on ensuring it never happens again, or something like that. You can see it in the songs they sing at football matches. Two wars and one world cup I believe. It shows some disconnect from reality that they think this is appropriate to sing and actually be proud of.

charlie14

briany wrote: »

Fair enough that the U.S. and Russia want to see the EU fracture in the sense of this is how the game of global dominance is played, ugly as it can be.

But there is a huge blindside in their propaganda to this end in that their countries are massive unions themselves, and are far more integrated than the EU is. You can bet their governments do not look kindly on the idea of secession for any of their own constituent states/republics. They're so transparent in their true reasoning behind their rhetoric that a bit of old-fashioned colonial candour would be quite welcome.

Both the U.S. and Russia, are as you say massive unions themselves, where both have shown they do not look kindly on secession.
Where they differ greatly from the E.U. though is in their governance and economic policies where their presidents pretty much dictate unhindered.

Kermit.de.frog

Calina wrote: »

https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1057269504047267840

Let's have a look at Mrs Nokes CV

Caroline Nokes - Minister of State for Immigration

Professional background:

She was educated at The Romsey School, La Sagesse Convent in Romsey and then Peter Symonds' College, Winchester, before reading politics at the University of Sussex from 1991 to 1994. After her graduation, Nokes became a policy adviser for her father, then a Member of the European Parliament. Nokes was a Councillor of Test Valley Borough Council from 1999 until 2010. Prior to her election, she was chief executive of the National Pony Society. In January 2018, Nokes was appointed Minister of State for Immigration at the Home Office, a Cabinet position.

And I thought our lot were bad and unqualified.:eek:

J Mysterio

Brexit is, was and always eill be an ugly event, mostly inspired by mean emotion. The damage to the reputation of the UK cannot be understated though.

Stories like the below- and worse- are all too common now.

Home Office blocks US resident from entering UK to see daughter suffering from advanced ovarian cancer

Exclusive: Elderly woman unable to see daughter with advanced cancer because immigration officials ‘not satisfied’ she will leave UK afterwards.

Where is the famous 'fairness'.

Spook_ie

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Good thing our government has the power to raise taxes then.

Think Italy, anything that might imperil the Euro would have to pass the EU

Working class heroes

Enzokk wrote: »

You missed out a few more vocal and much more Brexit ministers than Corbyn and McDonnell if you were looking for people that believe in Brexit. You forgot Daniel Hannan, David Davis and Ian Duncan Smith who all seem much more focused on getting a hard Brexit than the Labour leaders.

I hope that Corbyn and McDonnell knows that even if they have reservations about Brexit they would be selling the workers they claim to represent down the river ultimately if it proceeds. They are also in the awkward position that most of their members and voters don't care for Brexit. Yes there is a Leave Labour vote out there, but it isn't nearly as big as those who oppose it. Then again the low depths politicians will stoop to these days means it will not be a surprise to me if Labour actually pursue a hard Brexit themselves against the wishes of the PLP or the members.

Just as an aside, the Remainiacs podcast had an interesting point where they picked up that the UK has always had a different perspective on peace in Europe. While people dies and suffered, they were the only country in Europe to actually see both the wars as victories and not as something to never happen again. They would actually be happy to have those feelings of victory repeated while those on the continent seem much more focused on ensuring it never happens again, or something like that. You can see it in the songs they sing at football matches. Two wars and one world cup I believe. It shows some disconnect from reality that they think this is appropriate to sing and actually be proud of.

Yes, it’s almost like they feel left out, “where is our war, we want our victory parade”

RobMc59

Working class heroes wrote: »

Enzokk wrote: »

You missed out a few more vocal and much more Brexit ministers than Corbyn and McDonnell if you were looking for people that believe in Brexit. You forgot Daniel Hannan, David Davis and Ian Duncan Smith who all seem much more focused on getting a hard Brexit than the Labour leaders.

I hope that Corbyn and McDonnell knows that even if they have reservations about Brexit they would be selling the workers they claim to represent down the river ultimately if it proceeds. They are also in the awkward position that most of their members and voters don't care for Brexit. Yes there is a Leave Labour vote out there, but it isn't nearly as big as those who oppose it. Then again the low depths politicians will stoop to these days means it will not be a surprise to me if Labour actually pursue a hard Brexit themselves against the wishes of the PLP or the members.

Just as an aside, the Remainiacs podcast had an interesting point where they picked up that the UK has always had a different perspective on peace in Europe. While people dies and suffered, they were the only country in Europe to actually see both the wars as victories and not as something to never happen again. They would actually be happy to have those feelings of victory repeated while those on the continent seem much more focused on ensuring it never happens again, or something like that. You can see it in the songs they sing at football matches. Two wars and one world cup I believe. It shows some disconnect from reality that they think this is appropriate to sing and actually be proud of.

Yes, it’s almost like they feel left out, “where is our war, we want our victory parade”

Nobody with a brain wants war,and are these silly chants any more jingoistic than"sent him home tae think again"?

Professor Moriarty

RobMc59 wrote: »

Nobody with a brain wants war,and are these silly chants any more jingoistic than"sent him home tae think again"?

Amhrán Na bhFiann isn't exactly full of peace and love.

swampgas

From the Irish Times ... Barclays looking to move a big chunk of their business to Dublin.

Barclays seeking to move €250bn business to Republic ahead of Brexit
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/barclays-seeking-to-move-250bn-business-to-republic-ahead-of-brexit-1.3680943

Even if Brexit were avoided, I can't see moves like this being reversed all that easily once they have occurred.

lawred2

swampgas wrote: »

From the Irish Times ... Barclays looking to move a big chunk of their business to Dublin.

Barclays seeking to move €250bn business to Republic ahead of Brexit
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/barclays-seeking-to-move-250bn-business-to-republic-ahead-of-brexit-1.3680943

Even if Brexit were avoided, I can't see moves like this being reversed all that easily once they have occurred.

why does it need clearance from the UK's High Court out of interest?

prawnsambo

lawred2 wrote: »

why does it need clearance from the UK's High Court out of interest?

I presume it's because all its existing contracts with clients will be moved to a new corporate entity.

swampgas

lawred2 wrote: »

why does it need clearance from the UK's High Court out of interest?

That isn't spelled out, but I'm guessing that clients are currently protected under UK law and might be able to object to the transfer of jurisdiction?

The hearing will cover corporate banking, investment banking, private clients and customers’ overseas business based in the EEA. Anyone who believes the plan will damage their interests can make their case at the January hearing.

Water John

Davis indicating he thinks May will get a deal through Parliament.

'Terror will win.

The fear of no deal, I think - we haven’t had a chance to talk about it much - but I think that’s an irrational fear of no deal or [a] WTO [World Trade Organisation] deal.

That will win and there will be a deal.

It may take [a] few passes, there maybe a deal passes in Brussels and fails in Westminster.'


Nazler the guy who indicates correct procedure in Parliament should have some interesting comments today.

He says a vote of Parliament is not binding on the Government unless it's legislation.

Zubeneschamali

Water John wrote: »

The fear of no deal, I think - we haven’t had a chance to talk about it much - but I think that’s an irrational fear of no deal or [a] WTO [World Trade Organisation] deal.

Davis talking out of his pants as usual - the fear of a no Deal crashout is not irrational, it would be the worst disaster to hit the UK since WWII.

Leroy42

"We haven't had a change to talk about it much"

Good grief. An Ex minister, never mind the Ex Minister for Brexit, has just admitted that he went into negotiations without any idea what his threat of a No Deal actually meant and they hadn't talked about it.

This was their big threat, the reason why the EU were going to fold and agree to what the UK wanted. And it turns out they didn't even talk about what it meant.

ancapailldorcha

Leroy42 wrote: »

"We haven't had a change to talk about it much"

Good grief. An Ex minister, never mind the Ex Minister for Brexit, has just admitted that he went into negotiations without any idea what his threat of a No Deal actually meant and they hadn't talked about it.

This was their big threat, the reason why the EU were going to fold and agree to what the UK wanted. And it turns out they didn't even talk about what it meant.

Is this a surprise though? We now have a modern Western government introducing a shiny new coin to distract the population from the fact that it might have to hire boats to ensure an adequate food supply. And this is the sixth (recently overtaken by California) wealthiest economy in the world.

Tell me how

My brother lives long term in England. He is home at the moment.

I asked him what is the vibe on the street amongst people he meets (he's a vet) and he said none really because most people don't understand what is going on and just think they should get on with it.

He thinks that if there was another vote tomorrow it would likely still pass because most don't think beyond "Brexit means Brexit".

He thinks its very easy for the Brexiteers to appeal to these people and blame the EU for everything.

ilovesmybrick

Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts is now suggesting that remainers need to focus their attention on the potential of rejoining the EU at a later date, rather than a new referendum. He sits on the EU parliaments brexit group. He's not wrong, as far as I'm concerned the large protest for a new referendum should have been at least a year ago to have it run properly, and really they should have been that mobilised from the outset.


EU prepares for a no-deal Brexit amid lack of progress on talks

EKRIUQ

Tell me how wrote: »

My brother lives long term in England. He is home at the moment.

I asked him what is the vibe on the street amongst people he meets (he's a vet) and he said none really because most people don't understand what is going on and just think they should get on with it.

Exactly because that's the sentiment. People presume the government are going to get the best deal and are just carrying on with things and I think the polls reflect this. They voted to leave, they should just leave.

It's only when Joe Public is affected by brexit, will they actually know what the majority of people voted for and at that stage it's going to be in blame the EU mode.

lawred2

Tell me how wrote: »

My brother lives long term in England. He is home at the moment.

I asked him what is the vibe on the street amongst people he meets (he's a vet) and he said none really because most people don't understand what is going on and just think they should get on with it.

He thinks that if there was another vote tomorrow it would likely still pass because most don't think beyond "Brexit means Brexit".

He thinks its very easy for the Brexiteers to appeal to these people and blame the EU for everything.

On a human level - I can see lots of people burying their head in the sand and ignoring reality because to consider that their vote was wrong 2 years ago would be to entertain the concept that they might have been gullible/useful fools duped into doing someone else's bidding.

Not many people have the emotional intelligence to accept when they were wrong!

prawnsambo

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts is now suggesting that remainers need to focus their attention on the potential of rejoining the EU at a later date, rather than a new referendum. He sits on the EU parliaments brexit group. He's not wrong, as far as I'm concerned the large protest for a new referendum should have been at least a year ago to have it run properly, and really they should have been that mobilised from the outset.


EU prepares for a no-deal Brexit amid lack of progress on talks

Yeah. Much as I sympathise with those calling for a second referendum, I think they're wasting their time. The necessary numbers don't seem to be there and it would just drag the same old lies back up into the public consciousness and probably endorse the previous decision. In any event, it's not the answer. The referendum was advisory and it should be left to the governmenmt to call the whole thing off or carry through with it. And commit political suicide either way.

Tell me how

lawred2 wrote: »

On a human level - I can see lots of people burying their head in the sand and ignoring reality because to consider that their vote was wrong 2 years ago would be to entertain the concept that they might have been gullible/useful fools duped into doing someone else's bidding.

Not many people have the emotional intelligence to accept when they were wrong!

I think they genuinely have not thought about it or analysed it enough to determine that they were wrong.

EKRIUQ wrote: »

It's only when Joe Public is affected by brexit, will they actually know what the majority of people voted for and at that stage it's going to be in blame the EU mode.

This is what I think will happen, it will have to wait until those who are impacted are old enough to push for a vote to join. Once they are out, many will not want the pain of talking about rejoining. This is literally life changing.

lawred2

Tell me how wrote: »

I think they genuinely have not thought about it or analysed it enough to determine that they were wrong.

Yeah their heads are firmly buried in the sand. They can't be engaged with reality because to be so would force them to face up to the consequences of their vote.

i.e. "Brexit means Brexit" and "get on with it"