Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

ilovesmybrick

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I think you are kind of ignoring the significance of a hard border. I'm old enough to remember being taken from a car at gun point as a boy with my family for a search. And I'd imagine that's a fairly tame memory in comparison to many. In addition to that, I think it would be political suicide to be the party that agrees to partition the country again.

Similarly my earliest memory of crossing the border was the car being surrounded at one of the check points by armed soldiers and my dad pointing out the snipers up in a bluff, and this was around the early to mid-1990's. And that wasn't even the high point of the troubles. I don't think anyone who experienced what the border actually was would be so flippant as to say the issues can be solved by technological solutions or that it's all in the past. Giving my age away a small bit, but I remember in fifth class we were talking about the IRA break in the cease fire around 97/98 in the bloody playground, and this was down in west Munster. Omagh was a particularly vivid memory as we had recently gotten cable so it was non stop on the TV. My younger brothers don't have those memories and I always hoped that the fact that the GFA had at the very least meant that kids in the republic wouldn't have to worry about such things. There are three years between me and the next sibling, and they don't have any such memories.

The house next door to us was used to house Catholics from the North who had to flee due to the violence up there. The last family had a young girl who came into our class in fourth class. She introduced herself by saying she was from Belfast and they had moved down because the previous month a firebomb had been thrown through the sitting room window in the middle of the night. I'm absolutely disgusted with how the UK has been handling this, they're so flippant about the very legitimate concerns and worries people, on both sides of the border, Protestants, Catholics, Republicans, and Unionists (bar the DUP) have about a renewed border.

Imreoir2

Leroy42 wrote: »

So, originally we had the Lanchaster speech with it red lines and no NI border.

Then we had the two options, Max Fac and (jeez I can't even remember what they called the other one).

Then, they ditched both of them and came up with Chequers.

Now they have ditched chequers and haven't come up with any new plan but can't accept the EU one.

All within the space of 18 months. And TM gets offended when she thinks other people don't respect her?

A "Customs Partnership", the basis of which went on to become Chequers, with other stuff thrown in (like security cooperation) to flesh out a white paper.

prawnsambo

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Similarly my earliest memory of crossing the border was the car being surrounded at one of the check points by armed soldiers and my dad pointing out the snipers up in a bluff, and this was around the early to mid-1990's.

I had similar experiences. But the worst I heard was from a friend of mine who used to travel across the border for a sport he was involved in, as did I. He mixed with all sorts including some RUC officers who were also involved and got on fine with them.

One evening coming back towards the border, he was stopped by a B specials checkpoint. They gave him a hard time with identification etc. and then sent him on his way. A few miles further on he was stopped again, by the same lads. More hassle and at this stage he's getting extremely nervous. When they eventually let him go on, he stops at the first pub he can find and phones one of his sporting mates; an RUC inspector. The guy told him to have a cup of coffee and not head back on the road for at least fifteen minutes.

He heads on again and sure enough is stopped by the same guys again. Their first words were to ask him what kept him. But before they can go any further a couple of RUC landrovers pull up and the B specials are divested of their weapons, their landrover and told to walk home. The RUC escort my friend to the border.

It was a terrifying experience and just one of thousands that people encountered every day.

Infini

I'll be honest way thing's are looking were looking at a "no-deal" scenario as a near certainty. The UK government is paralyzed by ideological, narrow minded idiots with zero interest for the common good. If anything the fact that the whole leave campaign investigation is being hit with political meddling show's that those who want this are outright after pure self interests. As for the UK itself too many people over there are too unwilling to accept reality and keep thinking things will be ok and not willing to contemplate the disastrous consequences that a no deal scenario truly entails.

The DUP are foolish to think that the "no surrender" tactic is going to benefit them in any long term plan. If anything a UI campaign might become unstoppable if the economic tanking of the UK become severe not to mention the added effect Scotland breaking away might have on this. This is truly the UK's moment of crowning idiocy.

eire4

prawnsambo wrote: »

I had similar experiences. But the worst I heard was from a friend of mine who used to travel across the border for a sport he was involved in, as did I. He mixed with all sorts including some RUC officers who were also involved and got on fine with them.

One evening coming back towards the border, he was stopped by a B specials checkpoint. They gave him a hard time with identification etc. and then sent him on his way. A few miles further on he was stopped again, by the same lads. More hassle and at this stage he's getting extremely nervous. When they eventually let him go on, he stops at the first pub he can find and phones one of his sporting mates; an RUC inspector. The guy told him to have a cup of coffee and not head back on the road for at least fifteen minutes.

He heads on again and sure enough is stopped by the same guys again. Their first words were to ask him what kept him. But before they can go any further a couple of RUC landrovers pull up and the B specials are divested of their weapons, their landrover and told to walk home. The RUC escort my friend to the border.

It was a terrifying experience and just one of thousands that people encountered every day.

I hear you. I am from Dublin but lived in Donegal for a couple of years growing up and I can remember guns beings pointed right in my face as we went through check points and one night especially that got very scary as their soldiers were clearly very nervous and twitchy. As another poster said any body who flippantly dismisses a hard border going back up never had to actually experience what that was.

charlie14

prawnsambo wrote: »

I had similar experiences. But the worst I heard was from a friend of mine who used to travel across the border for a sport he was involved in, as did I. He mixed with all sorts including some RUC officers who were also involved and got on fine with them.

One evening coming back towards the border, he was stopped by a B specials checkpoint. They gave him a hard time with identification etc. and then sent him on his way. A few miles further on he was stopped again, by the same lads. More hassle and at this stage he's getting extremely nervous. When they eventually let him go on, he stops at the first pub he can find and phones one of his sporting mates; an RUC inspector. The guy told him to have a cup of coffee and not head back on the road for at least fifteen minutes.

He heads on again and sure enough is stopped by the same guys again. Their first words were to ask him what kept him. But before they can go any further a couple of RUC landrovers pull up and the B specials are divested of their weapons, their landrover and told to walk home. The RUC escort my friend to the border.

It was a terrifying experience and just one of thousands that people encountered every day.

Showing my years here as they were disbanded in 1970 after the 1969 Hunt report but they were a particularly nasty bunch of bigoted individuals. Hard core catholic hating unionist to a man with not all of them from NI. Quite a few from RoI border counties

ilovesmybrick

eire4 wrote: »

I hear you. I am from Dublin but lived in Donegal for a couple of years growing up and I can remember guns beings pointed right in my face as we went through check points and one night especially that got very scary as their soldiers were clearly very nervous and twitchy. As another poster said any body who flippantly dismisses a hard border going back up never had to actually experience what that was.

Thing is I remember clearly talking to my boss about the North (Italian, Sud Tyrol too which had it's share of issues) and casually mentioning the number of deaths during the troubles and she was shocked. I was quite happy to tell her that was in the past and fortunately I was of the last generation that would ever have such memories. I don't think even in the case of a hard border it will go back the way it was, but even the fact that they could risk the possibility of it again and that we're talking about it is mad.

Leroy42

It is not just that there are a number of zealots. They are also lead by a leader who, at best, is indecisive. She appears to have neither the cunning of the political charm required to bring people with her. That she identified Chequers as the way forward, and seen it completely and systemically torn to shreds should be enough to remove her.

One of the most significant projects undertaken in years and she has added nothing but confusion, about turns and deadends throughout.

On top of that, she allowed the likes of Johnson and Davies to actively work against her, and the governments, plans whilst they were in office. She put this down to wanting an open debate. Another failure.

If that wasn't enough, you have an opposition that it as divided as the government. Most of the parliamentary party do not either want or like the leader of the party. The party cannot agree on what outcome it wants from Brexit, and has now settled on the position that the worse it is the better as it increases their chances of getting into government.

So in effect you have the two main parties each working directly against the long term welfare of the country.

An Ciarraioch

UK Government and business checklists for "No Deal":

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/charts/what-government-needs-do-prepare-no-deal-brexit

Captain Obvious

charlie14 wrote: »

Showing my years here as they were disbanded in 1970 after the 1969 Hunt report but they were a particularly nasty bunch of bigoted individuals. Hard core catholic hating unionist to a man with not all of them from NI. Quite a few from RoI border counties

Didn't they just join the UDR?

joe40

Don't get me wrong, I would hate to see any border infrastructure and I totally detest the DUP. I'm from Donegal, and currently work in Tyrone, and at 48 years old I have vivid memories of the "troubles" and the heavily fortified border.
However I just don't think there is any way we would return to the violence of the past. Border infrastructure would be a target but violence would be limited to destruction of property and rioting. I'm not playing that down but I don't think there is a danger of the near civil war conditions of the past.
That came about by years of a virtual apartheid state, and British heavy handed colonial attitude in the 70s.
Obviously I could be wrong, but I just feel whatever happens we won't go back to widespread, sustained organised nationalist violence. The conditions don't exist anymore.
Protestant/loyalist violence could reignite.

An Ciarraioch

Faisal Islam is probably the best UK commentator - has truffled out a German report that the EU is offering a longer transition period, while the UK is seeking permanent membership of the CU!

http://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1052259398763114496

Admittedly, I can't read German, so unsure how accurate this is.

flatty

The border was deeply sinister. Being surrounded by clearly nervous heavily armed lads who were not far of being children in truth. I just can't believe it's come to this. I can only think that the UK will have to grit its teeth and cut its cloth until labour get in, then grit and cut further until finally someone in the mainstream offers a centre ground viable political option, but it could easily be a generation.

flatty

joe40 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I would hate to see any border infrastructure and I totally detest the DUP. I'm from Donegal, and currently work in Tyrone, and at 48 years old I have vivid memories of the "troubles" and the heavily fortified border.
However I just don't think there is any way we would return to the violence of the past. Border infrastructure would be a target but violence would be limited to destruction of property and rioting. I'm not playing that down but I don't think there is a danger of the near civil war conditions of the past.
That came about by years of a virtual apartheid state, and British heavy handed colonial attitude in the 70s.
Obviously I could be wrong, but I just feel whatever happens we won't go back to widespread, sustained organised nationalist violence. The conditions don't exist anymore.
Protestant/loyalist violence could reignite.

My worry is that there were actually a surprisingly small number of active terrorists. I think the violence will largely come from the loyalist side who feel more threatened by a united Ireland with each passing year. In truth it's time that bullet was bitten (poor phrase in the circumstance)

Rhineshark

flatty wrote: »

The border was deeply sinister. Being surrounded by clearly nervous heavily armed lads who were not far of being children in truth. I just can't believe it's come to this. I can only think that the UK will have to grit its teeth and cut its cloth until labour get in, then grit and cut further until finally someone in the mainstream offers a centre ground viable political option, but it could easily be a generation.

The country won't survive a generation of deep cutting. It has just come out of the teeth of 8 years of truly badly-handled austerity. As things stand the county councils are in crisis, the NHS is in crisis, transport is getting worse, education is being cut, the emergency services were stripped to the bone a while ago, the universal credit scheme is causing severe deprivation, food bank usage has shot up and there is little to no focus on it because the government is consumed by Brexit.

And this is before Brexit actually happens. And god only knows what will happen if the likes of Johnson and Mogg get their way with removing all protections on British agriculture.

The King Arthur party better arise fast. I'm not sure the UK has a generation to wait.

An Ciarraioch

One doesn't need much French to get the gist of this tweet from their Minister for European Affairs:

http://twitter.com/NathalieLoiseau/status/1052257142026031104

Spook_ie

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I think you are kind of ignoring the significance of a hard border. I'm old enough to remember being taken from a car at gun point as a boy with my family for a search. And I'd imagine that's a fairly tame memory in comparison to many. In addition to that, I think it would be political suicide to be the party that agrees to partition the country again.

The country is already partitioned, its a case of hard, soft or no border

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1051411763680473090

Cam across this thread yesterday explaining what will happen on Brexit day, it's a long one and also terrifying.

prawnsambo

Rhineshark wrote: »

The country won't survive a generation of deep cutting. It has just come out of the teeth of 8 years of truly badly-handled austerity. As things stand the county councils are in crisis, the NHS is in crisis, transport is getting worse, education is being cut, the emergency services were stripped to the bone a while ago, the universal credit scheme is causing severe deprivation, food bank usage has shot up and there is little to no focus on it because the government is consumed by Brexit.

And this is before Brexit actually happens. And god only knows what will happen if the likes of Johnson and Mogg get their way with removing all protections on British agriculture.

The King Arthur party better arise fast. I'm not sure the UK has a generation to wait.

When you think about it, Cameron could not have chosen a worse time for his little exercise in democracy. There is nothing like a prolonged period of hardship to turn an electorate against anything that they perceive to be at fault for their misery. Including their own government. And no matter how illogical it is.

An Ciarraioch

The trade stats for August continue the trend of the year to date - diversification of exports, but also imports - big jump for Germany in the latter:

https://cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gei/goodsexportsandimportsaugust2018/

flatty

Rhineshark wrote: »

flatty wrote: »

The border was deeply sinister. Being surrounded by clearly nervous heavily armed lads who were not far of being children in truth. I just can't believe it's come to this. I can only think that the UK will have to grit its teeth and cut its cloth until labour get in, then grit and cut further until finally someone in the mainstream offers a centre ground viable political option, but it could easily be a generation.

The country won't survive a generation of deep cutting. It has just come out of the teeth of 8 years of truly badly-handled austerity. As things stand the county councils are in crisis, the NHS is in crisis, transport is getting worse, education is being cut, the emergency services were stripped to the bone a while ago, the universal credit scheme is causing severe deprivation, food bank usage has shot up and there is little to no focus on it because the government is consumed by Brexit.

And this is before Brexit actually happens. And god only knows what will happen if the likes of Johnson and Mogg get their way with removing all protections on British agriculture.

The King Arthur party better arise fast. I'm not sure the UK has a generation to wait.

It'll have to. It'll be like Ireland in the eighties only violent.

road_high

I the U.K. (English) underestimate the level of apathy and indifference the Europeans have towards them and their trade with them. It appears to me the EU 26 are more than willing to take on the chin any individual damage trade disruption may cause rather than selling out the principles of EU membership and also Ireland as a committed member. They haven’t got their head around this and at this stage most likely won’t. Huge disruption at Dover etc it is and closure of associated industry interdependent on continental trade. Might (a big might) take to bring them to their senses, just a shame we will get caught in the cross fire.

charlie14

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Didn't they just join the UDR?

Quite a few of them, but after the Hunt Report the worst of them were either weeded out or there was stricter control of their "activities"

Kermit.de.frog

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

One doesn't need much French to get the gist of this tweet from their Minister for European Affairs:

http://twitter.com/NathalieLoiseau/status/1052257142026031104

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/french-give-may-a-glimmer-of-hope-over-irish-border-problem-3q9gpj7gb?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1539706887

Ooops

road_high

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The trade stats for August continue the trend of the year to date - diversification of exports, but also imports - big jump for Germany in the latter:

https://cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gei/goodsexportsandimportsaugust2018/

Likely very currency related- UK Ireland trade has always been hugely influenced by these movements and fall/rose accordingly.
But still very encouraging. You have to laugh at the “Global Britain” bollix they go on with. For all their ****e talk they actually export more to little ole us than we buy from them!

Roanmore

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1051411763680473090

Cam across this thread yesterday explaining what will happen on Brexit day, it's a long one and also terrifying.

Read it yesterday, it's available on a pdf format rather than 47 individual tweets plus about 6 or 7 add ons. It is crazy what could happen but reading some of the replies are worse, "you lost, get over it", etc.

Capt'n Midnight

Rhineshark wrote: »

The King Arthur party better arise fast. I'm not sure the UK has a generation to wait.

Worry ye not, the prophecies foretell of a saviour

Will Meghan Markle’s Child Be Born In Time To Stop Brexit?


In reality if there isn't a deal Meghan and the chisler will be able to travel to the EU for up to 90 days without a visa while hubby stays at home.

Imreoir2

joe40 wrote: »

However I just don't think there is any way we would return to the violence of the past. Border infrastructure would be a target but violence would be limited to destruction of property and rioting.

I don't think anyone expects things to return to the height of the troubles on day one. At first there would be destruction of property and civil disorder.

This sets back the peace a little bit.

This would require the deployment of additional security forces to control the situation.

This sets back the peace a little bit.

Frustrated protesters square up to security forces, injuries on both sides. Repeated destruction of infastructure, first a ceamra pulled down, then a checkpoint surrounded, then a few shots fired at customs agents, next a bomb planted, at some point security forces have to be deployed to protect the infastructure and the customs agents. If (when?) the police are attacked, should a member of the PSNI be seriously injured or killed, will the army be deployed? What about after the second or third, or fourth?

Each step chips away at the peace settlement bit by bit, each step brings a reaction, and further escalation. This summer might see riots, and for the rest of the UK that might be all there is, but in NI it won't stop there. We will be lucky to get past the 12th without serious violence.

joe40

Isn't there a german word for taking some pleasure in someone else's misfortune?
If this didn't affect me personally and also have really dire consequences for a lot of irish businesses and their workers, I would enjoy watching the Brits tie themselves up in knots.

This situation is very serious for us, catastrophic for the UK.

FrancieBrady

joe40 wrote: »

Isn't there a german word for taking some pleasure in someone else's misfortune?
If this didn't affect me personally and also have really dire consequences for a lot of irish businesses and their workers, I would enjoy watching the Brits tie themselves up in knots.

This situation is very serious for us, catastrophic for the UK.

We have a route to recover though. And we have recovered before. This time we will be better off as we will have rid ourselves of our dependence.

road_high

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We have a route to recover though. And we have recovered before. This time we will be better off as we will have rid ourselves of our dependence.

The Irish economy has made enormous strides in the past 3 decades in moving away from over dependence on the U.K. market. Our state agencies such as IDA Ireland, trade reps deserve enormous credit in this regard and their performance and hard work since the crash is to their credit and helped us recover very rapidly indeed. As well as hugely expanding our trade network around the globe.
We are a resilient bunch whatever happens and I fully support the government in endeavoring to protect Irish interests.

Water John

Schadenfreude

L1011

Asmooh wrote: »

Sure? Think the idea will target everyone and everything non Irish.
UK could still charge Ireland for using UK outlets, rhd cars, UK style busses etc

Not one of those things is something the UK owns the idea of.

The NTA buy most city buses from Wright in Northern Ireland, but at such a high volume that they would almost inevitably go bankrupt if we stopped. We are starting to source buses from elsewhere anyway; and its not like we haven't completely changed city bus manufacturer before, and recently - went from Alexander to Wright in about 2009.

If the UK tries any silly buggers stuff we can put Northern Ireland in to the 19th century almost instantly - we own the gas and electricity networks. Irish state-owned companies, not even Irish PLCs.

Anthracite

Asmooh wrote: »

Sure? Think the idea will target everyone and everything non Irish.
UK could still charge Ireland for using UK outlets, rhd cars, UK style busses etc

Wait, what??

road_high

joe40 wrote: »

In terms of northern Ireland economy, it is totally false. The % working in the public sector is ridiculously high compared with private sector.
Money was thrown at the province during the troubles. Revolution and poverty/unemployment go hand in hand.
That is slowly but significantly drying up. I work in education for over 20 years and the money available is a lot less, including salaries.
Without British support/handouts there would be a strong economic argument for a united Ireland. It is amazing how many even northern nationalists don't seem to realise that

Pull the plug on that subsidy and the place would collapse. Would make Greece look like a cake-walk really- the Greeks were used to lower quality public services anyhow whereas NI is a kind of narnia that bears no relation to its own productivity or output!
This kind of lavish false spending destroys the real economy long term and this is where NI is at now.
This farce can’t really continue especially if there was a UI. Everyone would have to pay their way

road_high

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. A lot of what we buy from the UK, we buy for convenience sake. It's closer and quicker to get. But it's not because they have a monopoly.

Inertia and familiarity also huge selling points with British trade. In reality very little that can’t be sourced cheaper or better elsewhere really.

Leroy42

road_high wrote: »

Pull the plug on that subsidy and the place would collapse. Would make Greece look like a cake-walk really. This kind of lavish false spending destroys the real economy long term and this is where NI is at now.
This farce can’t really continue especially if there was a UI. Everyone would have to pay their way

It won't continue to long after Brexit. If any of the projections are right, even if the economy simply stays at the current state, TM has already promised the end of austerity and they need £350mpw for the NHS. That is before they start having to pay for the new power stations, the new Trident fleet and loads more.

That is a lot of money that has to be found and there are significant additional costs that will have to be funded.

Inevitably, the people of GB are going to start asking why NI is getting such a large amount of money whilst the rest of the UK is struggling.

badtoro

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1051411763680473090

Cam across this thread yesterday explaining what will happen on Brexit day, it's a long one and also terrifying.

Is he right on 36/47 where he says basically the UK can unilaterally withdraw A50? Do the other members, or anyone else, get a say were that to happen? Whether they do or do not the UK has seriously damaged itself as a nation with these "negotiations".

ilovesmybrick

Anthracite wrote: »

Wait, what??

I'm presuming that the poster means that Ireland wouldn't be able to source right hand drive cars anymore since UK car manufacturers make most right hand drive cars. Manufacturers like Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mazda..../s

In terms of plug sockets their point is even more nonsensical.

Imreoir2

badtoro wrote: »

Is he right on 36/47 where he says basically the UK can unilaterally withdraw A50? Do the other members, or anyone else, get a say were that to happen? Whether they do or do not the UK has seriously damaged itself as a nation with these "negotiations".

It's before the ECJ for decision at the moment. The current EU position is that it can only be withdrawn with agreement on all sides.

road_high

Leroy42 wrote: »

It won't continue to long after Brexit. If any of the projections are right, even if the economy simply stays at the current state, TM has already promised the end of austerity and they need £350mpw for the NHS. That is before they start having to pay for the new power stations, the new Trident fleet and loads more.

That is a lot of money that has to be found and there are significant additional costs that will have to be funded.

Inevitably, the people of GB are going to start asking why NI is getting such a large amount of money whilst the rest of the UK is struggling.

It’s a double whammy for NI as I see it. All this has brought the economy to a hugely uncompetitive state and place- why work and be lean when you can effectively get money for nothing?
You never hear of the likes of google or Facebook setting up in Belfast or any of the future/present world economy is at. Anyone I know or meet up north seems to work in the public service or low paid service jobs, unsurprisingly. Or else they move to Dublin or the “mainland”!

Kermit.de.frog

FT reporting EU to offer 1 year extension to transition period.

In return UK must accept 2 backstops including a Northern Ireland only backstop for CU and SM with no timelimit.

An Ciarraioch

FT reporting Barnier offering a "two-tier backstop" - UK in CU, while NI in SM, transition would be extended to December 2021.

trellheim

FT also reporting the backstop is a mistake lol https://www.ft.com/content/0df6434e-d12c-11e8-a9f2-7574db66bcd5


Make no mistake the UK is trying for all it is worth here there is literally no downside to them running down the clock as the alternative is no deal and they reckon someone will ask them to ease up

road_high

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I'm presuming that the poster means that Ireland wouldn't be able to source right hand drive cars anymore since UK car manufacturers make most right hand drive cars. Manufacturers like Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mazda..../s

In terms of plug sockets their point is even more nonsensical.

I was trying to find that posters original posts- must have been deleted but I gather some ****e about how we couldn’t buy third rate expensive buses from Wrights (one of the few places that actually make and sell anything for money up there). Presumably our public transporters must likely bought them as a goodwill gesture. Nothing that can’t be sourced and bought more cheaply from Europe or the globe!

briany

The "GET. AHT. NAHHH." crowd won't be pleased if this comes to pass.

Leroy42

An extension to the transition makes perfect sense for the EU. Basically nothing changes for them (which is what we all want). The UK leave, but there is no actual impact except they don't have to listen to them anymore. And in return the EU gets everything it wants.

The transition period is a wholly made up process anyway.

Is there a downside to the EU from a move like this?

Enzokk

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Thing is I remember clearly talking to my boss about the North (Italian, Sud Tyrol too which had it's share of issues) and casually mentioning the number of deaths during the troubles and she was shocked. I was quite happy to tell her that was in the past and fortunately I was of the last generation that would ever have such memories. I don't think even in the case of a hard border it will go back the way it was, but even the fact that they could risk the possibility of it again and that we're talking about it is mad.

I don't know whether a hard border will lead to the exact violence there was before but just the idea that any violence could be returned to for a decision the people in NI didn't vote for boggles the mind to be honest.

What would happen with NI in the future would be interesting. I read a tweet where it was mentioned that NI has a very right wing tax policy but left wing spending. I guess this is only possible when you don't really have to worry about deficits and such things.

During the RHI inquiry one of the questions was why the scheme was set up initially to be so generous and the answer was basically that because the initial cost was from the Treasury and the assumption was any overspend would be paid from the Treasury as well they could make the scheme very generous.

A lot of thinking on how things should be done will need to change in NI. The £1b bribe will not have helped them come to this realisation though, but the time has come for their politicians to start living in the real world and not one where they are subsidized and can spend to their hearts content.

Kermit.de.frog

Nice from Elmer Brock to the Tory on Prime Time explaining how hopelessly dependent Ireland is on "the rest of the UK"

"I'll take my view of Ireland from Dublin, not from London"

joe40

In terms of the north and violence, I thought the DUPs use of the term "blood" red lines was a thinly veiled threat.
I heard very little commentary on the use of that particular term, but to me it was a bit reminiscent of carson and the signing of the ulster covenant in blood.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but
they really are a despicable party.