Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Peregrinus · 06-11-2018 9:42am

Spook_ie wrote: »

The first headline would be an outright lie, I'd say your second has a grain of truth in it, not in that they are forcing you to drink cold coffee but in the fact that you can't drink hot coffee without changing your habits.

Of course you can. Your existing coffee machine, when this regulation is introduced, presumably has an "always on" mode (and if it doesn't, that's not the EU's fault) and you can continue to use it. And when the time comes to replace it, you can replace it with one which has an "always on" mode, and you can engage that mode.

All that the EU regulation prohibits is new coffee machines which have "always on" as the only or default mode. But if you want to buy a coffee machine with an "always on" mode and to operate it in that mode, you are absolutely free do do so. Claims that you are "forced" to accept cold coffee have no grain of truth. They are outright lies.

lawred2 · 06-11-2018 9:52am

Spook_ie wrote: »

The first headline would be an outright lie, I'd say your second has a grain of truth in it, not in that they are forcing you to drink cold coffee but in the fact that you can't drink hot coffee without changing your habits.

People really don't get the difference do they.

The second does not have a grain of truth in it. There is no such coercion to drink cold coffee. It was the simplest of changes in regulation.

Here it is from the horse's mouth

The new rule simply means that coffee machines on the market after January 2015 must have an energy efficient option by having an eco mode that puts the hotplate or element into standby after a certain period (see below): thereby saving on people’s electricity bills. The eco mode will be the default mode of the coffee machine but manufacturers are free to create a non time-limited option alongside the eco mode – thereby leaving choice open to the consumer.

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/hot-coffee/

So really - no such grain of truth at all.

Oh the big bad EU - giving the consumer the choice to save or waste electricity. Ooooooh it's the big bad boogeyman alright.

First Up · 06-11-2018 9:54am

Standards are agreed between EU countries so everyone knows what they are getting. Its part of the logic of a single market.

The Commission doesn't "force" standards on countries. Its role is technical - working with member states to find the most suitable common standards and designing how they can be implemented across all countries. Its a step up from the original EU arrangement of "mutual recognition" to the more advanced system needed for the SM.

There are some in the UK still hoping that "mutual recognition" can be revived for them. Some chance of that.

lawred2 · 06-11-2018 10:02am

My mother in law is over from the UK at the moment - she goes backwards and forwards on leave and remain.. deep down there's a bit of old fashioned anti immigrant in her so she thinks Leave ticks that box but she's aware of the possible personal implications for her with her daughter and grand children living in an EU country...

Well she came out with some trope that Ireland doesn't want the EU either what with us rejecting almost every referendum on the EU.. She said she heard that we even tried to reject the introduction of the Euro.

Obviously I asked her where she heard that - and this was a BBC debate where some leave campaigner was free to claim unchallenged that we've been a reluctant EU member the same as Britain and that we rejected almost all referendums only to be asked again.

Obviously I pointed out that Maastrict was overwhelmingly accepted in 1992 and this what paved the way for the Euro - I pointed out that it was only two referenda that were initially rejected and these were on specific grounds that the Irish government had to renegotiate with the EU on.

Her response was "well that can't be right - sure you can't just say things like that on TV"...

It just goes to show how anything said on TV can become an immediate 'fact' as long as it goes unchallenged at the time and when it's the uninformed that's absorbing it.

Zubeneschamali · 06-11-2018 10:06am

Peregrinus wrote: »

All that the EU regulation prohibits is new coffee machines which have "always on" as the only or default mode.

The other thing to note about these "EU bans British Toast!" stories is that the EU does not actually have a huge office for banning and regulating stuff. These regulations come up as suggestions from national and industry bodies and are then adopted (or not) at European level. You'll hear radio ads here in Ireland from the NSAI calling for people in industry to get their firms involved in setting new standards.

The BSI in the UK publishes thousands of standards every year. Many of the regulations decried by the red-tops were proposed by the UK themselves, and would have been applied by an independent UK in any case.

Kermit.de.frog · 06-11-2018 10:49am

Does the EU support a review mechanism?

Or has Varadkar done a solo run here?

I don't see a problem with it in principle so long as the UK can't withdraw on it's own.

If it's the case UK could withdraw on it's own that would be absurd.

My concern is that Varadkar has played a card too early here.

Tell me how · 06-11-2018 10:53am

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

I don't see a problem with it in principle so long as the UK can't withdraw on it's own.

My concern is that Varadkar has played a card too early here.

That's all that the is saying. There must be agreement.

Given Sabine was tweeting yesterday and Michel Barnier also gave a press conference yesterday (though in French I understand) and neither of them clarified or corrected his remarks, I'd expect they are fine with it.

Hurrache · 06-11-2018 10:55am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

My concern is that Varadkar has played a card too early here.

He hasn't played any card, all he said was that they would consider a review mechanism. It could simply be him being diplomatic without an intention of ever agreeing to one after the consideration being "ha ha, go and ****e".

Varadkar himself said any review mechanism in which unilateral action can be taking is ridiculous.

He's already clarified all the points you raised.

Kermit.de.frog · 06-11-2018 11:08am

By putting it on the table it's red meat to Raab and the likes, something to be negotiated.

That would be my concern.

On a different note - what an education this process has been on the sheer quality of sliced gammon the UK has been sending to the European Parliament for the last 40 years.

https://twitter.com/DavidCoburnUKip/status/1059737048251359232

RobMc59 · 06-11-2018 11:17am

First Up wrote: »

Standards are agreed between EU countries so everyone knows what they are getting. Its part of the logic of a single market.

The Commission doesn't "force" standards on countries. Its role is technical - working with member states to find the most suitable common standards and designing how they can be implemented across all countries. Its a step up from the original EU arrangement of "mutual recognition" to the more advanced system needed for the SM.

There are some in the UK still hoping that "mutual recognition" can be revived for them. Some chance of that.

The UK won't suddenly become some 3rd world country without sensible safety standards..Also whose job is it to think up this kind of stuff about the coffee maker-who ever it is must pinch themselves every morning when they wake up and say"am I really getting paid for this!".

lawred2 · 06-11-2018 11:19am

RobMc59 wrote: »

The UK won't suddenly become some 3rd world country without sensible safety standards..Also whose job is it to think up this kind of stuff about the coffee maker-who ever it is must pinch themselves every morning when they wake up and say"am I really getting paid for this!".

You think there's a person or room of people just simply making standards up?

LeinsterDub · 06-11-2018 11:25am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

By putting it on the table it's red meat to Raab and the likes, something to be negotiated.

Nothing is on the table it's simply diplomatic speak

kunst nugget · 06-11-2018 11:30am

Was Varadkar just using conciliatory language to help May get the backstop, with a slightly different language but saying the same thing, through her parliament by giving the brexiteers the feeling they've got a concession and a back down from the EU.

Hurrache · 06-11-2018 11:34am

I see Faisal Islam is leaving Sky News to be economics editor at BBC. Big loss for Sky as he's been great for them on Brexit, and you'd wonder how constrained he'll be at BBC due to their editorial policies.

Leroy42 · 06-11-2018 11:35am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

On a different note - what an education this process has been on the sheer quality of sliced gammon the UK has been sending to the European Parliament for the last 40 years.

https://twitter.com/DavidCoburnUKip/status/1059737048251359232

That can be for real is it? How can an MEP, anybody actually, post something like that?

Hurrache · 06-11-2018 11:37am

Leroy42 wrote: »

That can be for real is it? How can an MEP, anybody actually, post something like that?

Because UKIP, that's why.

Professor Moriarty · 06-11-2018 11:40am

Leroy42 wrote: »

That can be for real is it? How can an MEP, anybody actually, post something like that?

He's a big fan of Trump and Le Pen. Enough said.

Enzokk · 06-11-2018 11:49am

Hurrache wrote: »

I see Faisal Islam is leaving Sky News to be economics editor at BBC. Big loss for Sky as he's been great for them on Brexit, and you'd wonder how constrained he'll be at BBC due to their editorial policies.

That is interesting. I believe current political editor Laura Kuenssberg was the economics editor before she took over at her current post. Seems that the BBC have their next politics editor lined up.

As for the BBC and their editorial policies you suspect that they will change as the mood in the UK changes, we just find ourselves at this moment in time where they have just dropped the ball.

Tell me how · 06-11-2018 11:57am

Enzokk wrote:

As for the BBC and their editorial policies you suspect that they will change as the mood in the UK changes, we just find ourselves at this moment in time where they have just dropped the ball.

Is it really feasible though that a corporation as large as the BBC would be even able to dictate a company wide policy on something as big as Brexit?

If nothing else, if they felt they had to do it, it would indicate that some staff wouldn't be of the same opinion and thus if they were being silenced or manipulated, there would surely be leaks that it was happening.

I think they are reflecting the wider society in the UK which is still deeply divided and just wants this to be over.

Knowing something is going to happen and wanting it to happen sooner rather than later is not the same as really wanting it to happen in the first place. (If you get me)

Kermit.de.frog · 06-11-2018 12:00pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/J_Donaldson_MP/status/1059748210271494144

DUP saying heading for no deal.

badtoro · 06-11-2018 12:03pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

On a different note - what an education this process has been on the sheer quality of sliced gammon the UK has been sending to the European Parliament for the last 40 years.

https://twitter.com/DavidCoburnUKip/status/1059737048251359232

That can be for real is it? How can an MEP, anybody actually, post something like that?

Someone should tweet him Varadkars tweet a couple of weeks ago, might take his snout out of the trough long enough to annoy him - I'd say learn something normally but he's Ukip.

Enzokk · 06-11-2018 12:03pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Is it really feasible though that a corporation as large as the BBC would be even able to dictate a company wide policy on something as big as Brexit?

If nothing else, if they felt they had to do it, it would indicate that some staff wouldn't be of the same opinion and thus if they were being silenced or manipulated, there would surely be leaks that it was happening.

I think they are reflecting the wider society in the UK which is still deeply divided and just wants this to be over.

Knowing something is going to happen and wanting it to happen sooner rather than later is not the same as really wanting it to happen in the first place. (If you get me)

Well James O'Brien has commented that he was in line to do some work for I believe Newsnight and they wanted him to temper his opinions on Brexit if he was going to do more work for the BBC so it seems that the policy is out in the open. So it seems that the corporation can and has extended the policy to those working or doing work for the BBC.

Just on the news of Faisal Islam going to the BBC, I think the general view is that he has been very good on his coverage on Brexit. Going to the economics editor job during the time of Brexit should bode well for getting better coverage on the real effects of Brexit, whether they are negative or positive.

BonnieSituation · 06-11-2018 12:06pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/J_Donaldson_MP/status/1059748210271494144

DUP saying heading for no deal.

Gas.

All Dublin's fault eh?

Hurrache · 06-11-2018 12:10pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Is it really feasible though that a corporation as large as the BBC would be even able to dictate a company wide policy on something as big as Brexit?

Not sure what time TV news it was, but for one of their programs yesterday Brexit didn't even feature. Someone on Twitter listed each story, and on a day like yesterday, they never spoke about it.