Landlords agent let themselves in

stinkbomb

No, plumber does not have permission to enter: from the tenant, who is the only one to give permission. Permission from Landlord is not the permission necessary.

stinkbomb

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You don't get it. It's not the plumbers job to ring the tenants. Plumbers contract is with the landlord and not a third party.

When booking in jobs you will deal with either the tenant or landlord, not both.

Did you miss the part where the landlord (the person paying him) handed him keys. What do you suppose he was supposed to be doing with the keys?

It looks like the plumber was given keys and told to let himself in. What other reason would he have keys but to let himself in?

No, you do not get it. I have rented for many years and also been a landlord. Tradespeople ALWAYS contact the tenant to gain access to the property, because they are the only ones who can give permission to enter, the landlord cannot legally do that.
This is a simple concept that you clearly do not understand.The landlord handing him the keys is madness, he shouldn't be giving the keys to anyone and a tradesperson should not take them if they are aware the property currently has a tenant. He should not have the keys and should not let himself in.

Sleeper12

Ray Palmer wrote:

He is telling you he wouldn't bother as a plumber. I am telling you as a landlord dealing with tradesmen this is how they behave. You don't want accept that and want to say how they should act. They don't have to and can still get work so you can't get a plumber down.

It's not that I wouldn't bother. I give you a two hour window where you sit in and wait for me. Why w I ring anyone when you are waiting for me anyway?

If there is a teenager inside I don't think it's asking too much that they be out of bed before you get there. I do get that maybe OP's teenager was sick and this is a different case.

On OP's original question, landlord can enter if he believes that the plumbing problem is dangerous or leaking.

Sleeper12

Pelvis wrote:

a. Call when they're on their way b. Use a doorbell

I ring doorbell

stinkbomb wrote:

No, you do not get it. I have rented for many years and also been a landlord. Tradespeople ALWAYS contact the tenant to gain access to the property, because they are the only ones who can give permission to enter, the landlord cannot legally do that. This is a simple concept that you clearly do not understand.The landlord handing him the keys is madness, he shouldn't be giving the keys to anyone and a tradesperson should not take them if they are aware the property currently has a tenant. He should not have the keys and should not let himself in.

I do deal with tenants. Deal with them several times a day. I give them a two hour window for the day of their choice inc Saturday. I don't ring them. If they don't answer the door I move on to the next job

Ray Palmer

stinkbomb wrote: »

No, you do not get it. I have rented for many years and also been a landlord. Tradespeople ALWAYS contact the tenant to gain access to the property, because they are the only ones who can give permission to enter, the landlord cannot legally do that.
This is a simple concept that you clearly do not understand.The landlord handing him the keys is madness, he shouldn't be giving the keys to anyone and a tradesperson should not take them if they are aware the property currently has a tenant. He should not have the keys and should not let himself in.

Tradesmen do not ALWAYS do anything. Been doing this for 20 + years and very standard to hand the keys to plumber before the agreed day of arrival. Normally nobody has a problem with it but some tenants get all paranoid and want to be there. I let them hang around all day waiting if they want.
In my own home I leave the key somewhere for them to pick up to gain entry when I am not there. Like most people do who have to go to work. Had plumbers arrive at night when they said they would be there first thing in the morning. Landlords don't have magic wands to make tradesmen act a particular way

Ray Palmer

Pelvis wrote: »

I've never had a tradesman who was unable to do at least 1 of the following.

a. Call when they're on their way
b. Use a doorbell

I would have thought this was normal. Never would I give a total stranger a key to my home, in fact I would have thought that was abnormal.

Not my experience and I have been doing this a long time. Must have hired well over 100 tradesmen how many have you?

You still assume the plumber remembered and was told somebody might be there.

stinkbomb

Tenants "get paranoid"? No, they simply don't want complete strangers accessing their homes when they are not there, which is a perfectly normal way to live. Most people are the same.
It's a shame you can't understand that and I hope you are not taking keys from landlords and entering peoples homes without their permission, because if you are then you are acting both illegally and immorally.

lawred2

GarIT wrote: »

Complain to the RTB and contact your solicitor, €10,000 payouts have been made in similar circumstances.

Whether someone wants to call you picky or not what the plumber did was illegal.

wtf?

that aside - I'd have grave concerns as to someone being given a key to my home to freely enter.

Graces7

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I ring doorbell



I do deal with tenants. Deal with them several times a day. I give them a two hour window for the day of their choice inc Saturday. I don't ring them.

If they don't answer the door I move on to the next job

He did not knock at the door. Just walked in.

Graces7

I keep a cell phone by my bed. If i heard anyone in my home without permission ? 999 immediately. Breaking and entering.

Sleeper12

Graces7 wrote:

He did not knock at the door. Just walked in.

No one knows that. Teenager only woke up as he left.

stinkbomb

Sleeper12 wrote: »

No one knows that. Teenager only woke up as he left.

It doesn't matter whether he knocked or not if he let himself in anyway, does it? The point of knocking is to seek permission to enter, if no-one answers you do not let yourself in anyway; that is illegal.

tom1ie

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You don't get it. It's not the plumbers job to ring the tenants. Plumbers contract is with the landlord and not a third party.

When booking in jobs you will deal with either the tenant or landlord, not both.

Did you miss the part where the landlord (the person paying him) handed him keys. What do you suppose he was supposed to be doing with the keys?

It looks like the plumber was given keys and told to let himself in. What other reason would he have keys but to let himself in?

Maybe he was given the keys and told only use these keys to gain access if you can’t reach the tenant on the phone or by using the doorbell, so that it wouldn’t be a wasted journey.

Ray Palmer

stinkbomb wrote: »

Tenants "get paranoid"? No, they simply don't want complete strangers accessing their homes when they are not there, which is a perfectly normal way to live. Most people are the same.
It's a shame you can't understand that and I hope you are not taking keys from landlords and entering peoples homes without their permission, because if you are then you are acting both illegally and immorally.

The only reason to be uncomfortable is you believe they are going to do something other than plumbing work. That is paranoid thinking so I will call it as I see it. I am a landlord and generally people have no issue with it as otherwise they have to wait around while the plumber is there.
Those that want to be there are paranoid somebody is going to do something to their property.
It unreasonable to prevent a tradesman from gaining access while wanting something quickly fixed. My time off is precious and I am not wasting my days off for a plumber to call. If a tenant wants to they can but if the plumber doesn't turn up I am neither surprised nor going to pay compensation as many have asked for.

stinkbomb

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The only reason to be uncomfortable is you believe they are going to do something other than plumbing work. T
Those that want to be there are paranoid somebody is going to do something to their property.

Because tradespeople have never done anything in a property other than the work they were there to do? Yeah, right. IT's not paranoid to not have strangers in your home when you're not there and you are rude as well as wrong.

GreeBo

My understanding is that this Plumber/Tradesman is tied to the property and not just some 3rd party randomer.

So they likely have master key access to all the properties.

In any case, they need express permission to enter, which they did not have, they in fact had the opposite, express refusal.

Forgive the whataboutery, but one can only wonder what would happen if the plumber arrived in to find this teenager naked in the bathroom?
Or perhaps she wakes up to find a strange man in her home and clocks him over the head with a vase.

Now where are we?

Pelvis

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Not my experience and I have been doing this a long time. Must have hired well over 100 tradesmen how many have you?

What? So you're saying it's not normal for a tradesman to either ring in advanced to tell you they're on the way OR just go ahead and ring the bell when they arrive?

You're saying that it's more common that a tradesman will have a key and just walk into your home?

Wuuut? That is patently nonsense.

Sleeper12

stinkbomb wrote:

It doesn't matter whether he knocked or not if he let himself in anyway, does it? The point of knocking is to seek permission to enter, if no-one answers you do not let yourself in anyway; that is illegal.

I never said otherwise. I responded to a poster saying that he didn't knock. I said no one knows that. If I have keys I still knock first. I also announce myself loudly or call hello as I go through the door, just in case someone is home unexpectedly

Ray Palmer

Pelvis wrote: »

What? So you're saying it's not normal for a tradesman to either ring in advanced to tell you they're on the way OR just go ahead and ring the bell when they arrive?

You're saying that it's more common that a tradesman will have a key and just walk into your home?

Wuuut? That is patently nonsense.

When they have the keys this is completely normal behaviour. There has already been a plumber here tell you they do not ring to say they are coming. I am telling you that they don't ring from my experience.

But no you are telling us they act in a completely different way and you know better. Never had a tradesman ring when on their way. I have lots not answer their phone and arrive at different times to when they said. According to you none of this happens. I'll go with my experience

Lux23

Ray Palmer wrote: »

When they have the keys this is completely normal behaviour. There has already been a plumber here tell you they do not ring to say they are coming. I am telling you that they don't ring from my experience.

But no you are telling us they act in a completely different way and you know better. Never had a tradesman ring when on their way. I have lots not answer their phone and arrive at different times to when they said. According to you none of this happens. I'll go with my experience

So you would have no problem having a tradesperson letting themselves into your home without your prior knowledge or consent?

Graces7

Ray Palmer wrote: »

When they have the keys this is completely normal behaviour. There has already been a plumber here tell you they do not ring to say they are coming. I am telling you that they don't ring from my experience.

But no you are telling us they act in a completely different way and you know better. Never had a tradesman ring when on their way. I have lots not answer their phone and arrive at different times to when they said. According to you none of this happens. I'll go with my experience

diversions rarely work. The issue here is that the tenant well within their rights stipulated not to arrive without prior timed notice and said why. A young girl asleep?

Sleeper12

Graces7 wrote: »

diversions rarely work. The issue here is that the tenant well within their rights stipulated not to arrive without prior timed notice and said why. A young girl asleep?

I'll be honest here, I don't understand why teenage daughter wasn't awake & waiting to let the plumber in. If it was 7 or 8am I'd understand.



OP expected the plumber to phone him/her so he/her could phone teenage daughter to wake her up. Does no one else find this odd? It's not in my job description to be anyone's alarm clock or babysitter.


I'm not saying the landlord had a right to tell the plumber to let himself in but how is it the plumbers job to wake the teenager?


I said it earlier, I wouldn't have touched this job with a barge pole. Far too messy for me.

DubJJ

I think the biggest shock from this thread is that some people don't seem to think it's an issue that a strange man let himself into a property without permission whilst a teenage girl was alone in bed.
Whether it was the plumbers fault or the landlords this is completely unacceptable and I have to doubt the decency of any man who thinks otherwise.

This is somebody's daughter, forget about the whole LL v Tennant argument (I have been both sides in my time), this is not acceptable and I am absolutely disgusted with anybody who says otherwise.

GreeBo

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'll be honest here, I don't understand why teenage daughter wasn't awake & waiting to let the plumber in. If it was 7 or 8am I'd understand.

As the hired tradesman, that is absolutely none of your concern.

Sleeper12

GreeBo wrote: »

As the hired tradesman, that is absolutely none of your concern.

You are perfectly correct. This is why I never would have done the job. There is nothing in my trade description about getting someone else's teenager out of bed!


It's because of this nonsense that most tradesmen wont phone. We give you a time slot & you have to be there. Not there & I move to the next job. You'll never hear from me again. I wont phone asking are you far away. I'll just be gone. Time is money & my time is much more valuable than the homeowner. It's the way of the world

Ray Palmer

Lux23 wrote: »

So you would have no problem having a tradesperson letting themselves into your home without your prior knowledge or consent?

You know that didn't happen here. The guy knew the plumber was coming and wanted to have it done a particular way. That is the issue and making it out as some special creepy element as opposed to a communication error is overblowing it.
There is no indication the landlord/plumber agreed they would ring just the OP had said it.

Making it sound sinister doesn't change what happened. Shouldn't have happened but equally unreasonable expectation for conditions to enter the property. Plumbers don't work like that as stated here by a plumber and my own experience.

There is nothing more to be done now accept an apology and a promise not to do it again. That is it. You would be laughed out of court for this. The big payments are not from one instance that could easily be a simple misunderstanding

the_pen_turner

DubJJ wrote: »

I think the biggest shock from this thread is that some people don't seem to think it's an issue that a strange man let himself into a property without permission whilst a teenage girl was alone in bed.
Whether it was the plumbers fault or the landlords this is completely unacceptable and I have to doubt the decency of any man who thinks otherwise.

This is somebody's daughter, forget about the whole LL v Tennant argument (I have been both sides in my time), this is not acceptable and I am absolutely disgusted with anybody who says otherwise.

Why
This isn't some random person who walks in off the street.
This person is known to the Tennant and landlord and Was there last week

You seem to think that a tradesman can't be left near a teenager

Sleeper12

From a tradesman's paint of view, we prefer not to let ourselves in at all. It has never happened to me but every time I let myself into an empty home I'm leaving myself open to being accused of theft or just plain snooping. Accused of not locking up properly. I'd prefer that someone was home. We get creaped out a bit too

The reality is time is money. I only enter the rooms I need to, I do my job & i'm gone.

cruizer101

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You are perfectly correct. This is why I never would have done the job. There is nothing in my trade description about getting someone else's teenager out of bed!


It's because of this nonsense that most tradesmen wont phone. We give you a time slot & you have to be there. Not there & I move to the next job. You'll never hear from me again. I wont phone asking are you far away. I'll just be gone. Time is money & my time is much more valuable than the homeowner. It's the way of the world

Just to note the OP's daughter was in bed as they were working the previous night, so not a case of lazy teenager. They were not being asked to get the teenager out of bed they were being asked to be a bit courteous and make a quick call before arriving.

Whether or not you would take the job given those conditions is irrelevant, in this case those conditions were agreed to but not stuck to.

Are you really saying you would rather have wasted your time travelling rather than make a quick phone call. What if I am taking a **** when you call so can't get to the door straight away, or happen to be putting the bin out the back. Just because you have given a 2 hour time-slot doesn't mean I'm going to wait by the door for the two hours.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Tradesmen do not ALWAYS do anything. Been doing this for 20 + years and very standard to hand the keys to plumber before the agreed day of arrival. Normally nobody has a problem with it but some tenants get all paranoid and want to be there. I let them hang around all day waiting if they want.
In my own home I leave the key somewhere for them to pick up to gain entry when I am not there. Like most people do who have to go to work. Had plumbers arrive at night when they said they would be there first thing in the morning. Landlords don't have magic wands to make tradesmen act a particular way

Your lack of empathy and understanding is quite disconcerting.

The law is the law, abide by it or suffer the consequences.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The only reason to be uncomfortable is you believe they are going to do something other than plumbing work. That is paranoid thinking so I will call it as I see it. I am a landlord and generally people have no issue with it as otherwise they have to wait around while the plumber is there.
Those that want to be there are paranoid somebody is going to do something to their property.
It unreasonable to prevent a tradesman from gaining access while wanting something quickly fixed. My time off is precious and I am not wasting my days off for a plumber to call. If a tenant wants to they can but if the plumber doesn't turn up I am neither surprised nor going to pay compensation as many have asked for.

So self righteous. Unbelievable lack of empathy. No wonder people couldn't give a rats arse about landlords when they have grievances. With an attitude like yours, it's no wonder. All you are displaying here is your complete ignorance and disregard for the law.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

When they have the keys this is completely normal behaviour. There has already been a plumber here tell you they do not ring to say they are coming. I am telling you that they don't ring from my experience.

But no you are telling us they act in a completely different way and you know better. Never had a tradesman ring when on their way. I have lots not answer their phone and arrive at different times to when they said. According to you none of this happens. I'll go with my experience

It's not normal behavior to enter a home without the correct permission.

You can bleat on all you want, no amount of whinging from you will change the fact that you are 100% wrong.


OP, lodge a complaint with the PTRB, don't let this scumbag walk all over you. Some landlords think they can do whatever they want and get away with it. Don't enable this ignorance to fester.