The Expanse

breezy1985

beauf wrote: »

No one is safe around him. Family, friends, allies never mind enemies. The reverse is also true. Everyone sees him as a threat, and will take him out at the first opportunity.

That's said the Expanse is rarely predictable.

He does have some good points and is bloody charismatic about getting them across. Definitely mad though and

made comments in the latest episode that he would be willing to go to soviet famine extremes to win

pixelburp

That's certainly the nature of the character, both broadly as leader of the Free Navy, and as the former lover of Naomi: he's a quintessentially "toxic" figure in being both disarmingly magnetic, yet an utterly destructive element in the lives of those he touches. He's not exactly wrong with the conclusions he draws about the shifting power structure of the solar system, but he pulls a lot of lost souls into his orbit.

beauf

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but I don't find the Mars story arc that credible. Or the belter population being so large. But I'll suspend any disbelief and just go with it. But its the foundations of Marcos current story arc. So it nags.

pixelburp

Which part of the Mars arc do you find lacking credibility out of curiousity? I thought it was one of the more understandable, logical ones that fell out from the Ring Gate appearance.

beauf

People don't lose their cultural identity that fast, and you wouldn't give up a tech/military advantage that fast, and to you one of your main threats. Not on the scale required in this story arc.

It would make more sense to find a new habitable world, then move en-masse to that, with like minded people. At least stake claim and enforce with your tech/military advantage. New Mars as such. But if there are such planets isn't clear. Also there are risks that the planet may have dormant dangers. Also that the route to the planet could close at any time. So you wouldn't put all your eggs in one basket like that. You'd hedge your bets.

The other problem is the population of the belt. There only a tiny % on the stations we've seen. Yet they are the most important stations in the belt. Where is the other 99.9% of the population and how are they being fed and surviving.

Maybe this is explained in the books (which I've just stated reading) better. Anyway its a niggle. I'm not going to think about it too hard.

pixelburp

I haven't watched this week's episode yet, so not sure where exactly the Mars plot is going on-screen versus the novels - but I'm 2 books ahead of the show overall, so a bit cautious about spoiling too much.

The series hasn't always done a great job showing the extent of the Martian mindset though: just how militarised the entire planet is - almost cult-like - all working lockstep towards a single goal of turning an inhospitable planet into a garden. That everyone had bought into the need for planetary unity above personal desires, and the acceptance that even the grand-kids won't see the rewards of the work. Culturally, Martian identity had bought into an idea of working towards a very abstract, lofty goal; Mars is their home - but in the middle of the biggest renovation project ever undertaken. Accepting the reality that Earth was the only planet with an atmosphere; then the ring-gate came along and was like a coldwater shock to the system for a lot of Martians; suddenly generations of effort and sacrafice felt like a total waste.

Now, there's more to the fallout than this, but to say more is to spoil major threads from books 6 (ish) and 7.

As to the Belt; again the TV series has shown its limitations of budget & perspective. There are hundreds of stations across the belt, mostly based upon the smaller moons of the planets, and especially the various random Asteroids dotted about the system (usually for mining purposes IIRC). Tyco etc. are the major "cities" by dint of size but the Belt is thinly spread out, which is why it has always been so difficult to "rule" - and for The Belt to coalesce around a centralised voice or figurehead.

Re. food, the belt exists via hydroponics (see Season 3, where we visited the breadbasket of the belt on *checks notes* Ganymede) and various Soy/reclamation foods IIRC. Again, not really touched upon by the TV series but the Belt is broadly self-sufficient, if not especially rich on luxuries like fresh fruit & vegetables. It's why they're big into noodles and rice, and other foodstuffs that don't necessarily need a tonne of water...

beauf

The series implies the belt is not self-sufficient. At least that was my understanding. Hence any issues around Ganymede etc. Have far reaching implications.
If the belt is self- sufficient there is no reason to be dependent on earth. Which is a core premise of the TV show. Which then has implications for Marcos strategy and his future plans, whatever they are.

With Mars its just a too simplistic that its culture just vanishes. We know from human history that rarely does a cultural identity just disappear so fast even after massive events.

saneman

beauf wrote: »

The series implies the belt is not self-sufficient. At least that was my understanding. Hence any issues around Ganymede etc. Have far reaching implications.
If the belt is self- sufficient there is no reason to be dependent on earth. Which is a core premise of the TV show. Which then has implications for Marcos strategy and his future plans, whatever they are.

With Mars its just a too simplistic that its culture just vanishes. We know from human history that rarely does a cultural identity just disappear so fast even after massive events.

Belters could be self sufficient (at a basic level anyway) if given the opportunity to govern themselves were they not under the heel of Earth/Mars. From the outset we see they're also beholden to the corporations that own/run the facilities that provide food/air/water and those that process the resources that brought humanity out there in the first place.

With Mars it's not that their culture has just vanished but it has been fundamentally undermined because of the ring gates and its most precious resource, its people, are leaving. Why stay & toil in the hope that your great-grandchildren will experience a world with atmosphere when there are uncolonised planets suddenly available for all to inhabit. And those that do stay suddenly have a much greater & longer challenge ahead.

beauf

saneman wrote: »

Belters could be self sufficient (at a basic level anyway) if given the opportunity to govern themselves were they not under the heel of Earth/Mars. From the outset we see they're also beholden to the corporations that own/run the facilities that provide food/air/water and those that process the resources that brought humanity out there in the first place.

If they are reliant on food and water from the corporations, they are not self sufficient. I don't see how that is possible with 50 billion scattered over a vast area. I'm being pedantic. I realize that. I should just wait and see how the TV series resolves.

saneman wrote: »

With Mars it's not that their culture has just vanished but it has been fundamentally undermined because of the ring gates and its most precious resource, its people, are leaving. Why stay & toil in the hope that your great-grandchildren will experience a world with atmosphere when there are uncolonised planets suddenly available for all to inhabit. And those that do stay suddenly have a much greater & longer challenge ahead.

Take the Irish Diaspora. We didn't lose our culture when vast numbers emigrated around the planet. Our identity and traits didn't evaporate. If anything their success was fed back to Ireland. Same with a lot of other nationalities. I can't think of any that gave away all their crown jewels when they hit a bad spot. I know its perhaps mean to reflect the exploitations of developing nations, third world etc. But even those don't go. here are all our natural resources, we are leaving, we don't need them any more.

But hey I can just accept it as is. I just don't find it creditable thats all.

Still enjoying it. Great show. I've re-watched most of at it least twice if not three times. The books are lot more detailed than I was expecting. Great companion to the show though. Its answering allsorts of questions we had, Like what happened to the guy who invented the Epstein drive. I'm unlikely to over take the show with the books. It will take me a year of reading to get through them.

breezy1985

The belt have no official representative when the show starts and belters don't own anything in the belt other than a few ships. The OPA were threatened only as terrorists and not a government so the main reason the belt can't be self sufficient right now is the inners won't allow it.

The ring is a blessing to an over populated Earth but could be good or bad for the belt and will definitely turn Mars into a backwater

saneman

beauf wrote: »

... I should just wait and see how the TV series resolves.
...

Probably the best answer

And do continue with the books, they flesh out the story so much more. While there have been some changes between book & tv show the overall arc has been consistent.

pixelburp

I suppose when I said "self-sufficient" I was meaning in the sense that given the Belt lack any traditional natural resources you'd need for basic survival (food and water) - it's a civilisation one bad day away from total vacuum death - they're capable of supplying their own water through ice on asteroids or reclamation, coupled with the various hydroponics and artificial farming techniques supplying food. But primarily the issue for them is basic representation of course.

pixelburp

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

In the books they basically imply that there simply not enough ships to depopulate earth, the moon alone has 1bln vs 30bln on earth when series started (and thats a close distance of a days travel, the planets on other side or rings are 1-2 years away one way),
not that it matters much those falling rocks are going to put quite a dent in the population

I dont want to say too much in case spoil it to those just watching the tv series

Yeah, I've said it before but if there's one big flaw with the TV series IMO, is that distances and time just don't feel as vast as they should do. As you say, it takes 1-2 years to travel to these new worlds yet that never feels tangible on-screen. Season 4 in the books took place over the course of months IIRC, yet it felt like a couple of eventful weeks with the adaptation.

I'll give Marco's attack one unspoken advantage; once the ecological damage subsides, Earth won't be so strained by its outsized population anymore

breezy1985

pixelburp wrote: »

Yeah, I've said it before but if there's one big flaw with the TV series IMO, is that distances and time just don't feel as vast as they should do. As you say, it takes 1-2 years to travel to these new worlds yet that never feels tangible on-screen. Season 4 in the books took place over the course of months IIRC, yet it felt like a couple of eventful weeks with the adaptation.

I'll give Marco's attack one unspoken advantage; once the ecological damage subsides, Earth won't be so strained by its outsized population anymore

The trip out to the ring was the only time they showed space travel as being a long journey. It's not easy though to make an hour look like months in a TV show

pixelburp

beauf wrote: »

If they are reliant on food and water from the corporations, they are not self sufficient. I don't see how that is possible with 50 billion scattered over a vast area. I'm being pedantic. I realize that. I should just wait and see how the TV series resolves.



Take the Irish Diaspora. We didn't lose our culture when vast numbers emigrated around the planet. Our identity and traits didn't evaporate.

We didn't, but our identity wasn't explicitly informed by a giant longterm goal that literally instructed every economic and social effort within the country. Again, the books do a better job highlighting how almost nothing on Mars happens (or, happened) without some relationship with the on-going terraforming project. You're born and work only to serve as some cog in a future you're unlikely to live to see; Mars is a unique structure in that its culture is less about nationality, language, religion or whatnot - but a huge planetary project with a generational end-goal.

The prize was something presumed to be rare - another hospitable planet. Strip the promise of a green Mars away and what's left? Not much TBH because they were always the dog chasing a bone. There was a similar scenario, albeit not explored through characters, with the Mormons who put their fortunes in a giant spacecraft - the Nauvoo - that was to take them out into deep space for generations on end (of course it got requisitioned by the OPA and is now Medina Station).

Mars was defined by <Future Green Mars>, energies focused by the belief there was nothing else to work for. Earth was choked and barely hanging on, the belt a series of low-G Death Traps strangled by the corporations. All of a sudden when the Ring Gate opened, a lot of very highly skilled people on Mars had a future they could actually work for themselves & their kids.

Then, of course, there's

Winston Duarte

, which takes all the above into a whole new interesting direction that unfortunately, we won't see if that threat of Season 6 being the last season is true. If they do, they should cast Edward James Olmos for the role

breezy1985 wrote: »

The trip out to the ring was the only time they showed space travel as being a long journey. It's not easy though to make an hour look like months in a TV show

Fair point, and not sure how I'd do it myself either; prodigious use of beards maybe

beauf

breezy1985 wrote: »

The trip out to the ring was the only time they showed space travel as being a long journey. It's not easy though to make an hour look like months in a TV show

Voyager had a two part episode where they traveled for weeks in sector with no stars just darkness. All went a bit stir crazy. It was done well though.

beauf

Too many posts there to reply to each one. But I don't disagree with any of it. All valid. I like the various perspectives.

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

I know he is mad but its hard not to agree with Marcos when he gets going

That's the danger of populists isn't it

beauf

beauf wrote: »

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but I don't find the Mars story arc that credible. Or the belter population being so large. But I'll suspend any disbelief and just go with it. But its the foundations of Marcos current story arc. So it nags.

The soviets lost a lot of frightening equipment, during their pull back out of Europe.
Maybe not subs etc but it's a lot easier to hide something in the blackness of space

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Take the Irish Diaspora. We didn't lose our culture when vast numbers emigrated around the planet. Our identity and traits didn't evaporate. If anything their success was fed back to Ireland. Same with a lot of other nationalities. I can't think of any that gave away all their crown jewels when they hit a bad spot. I know its perhaps mean to reflect the exploitations of developing nations, third world etc. But even those don't go. here are all our natural resources, we are leaving, we don't need them any more.

But hey I can just accept it as is. I just don't find it creditable thats all.

Still enjoying it. Great show. I've re-watched most of at it least twice if not three times. The books are lot more detailed than I was expecting. Great companion to the show though. Its answering allsorts of questions we had, Like what happened to the guy who invented the Epstein drive. I'm unlikely to over take the show with the books. It will take me a year of reading to get through them.

But Ireland is not death to walk outside your door.
If your entire view of self worth (and that of your society) is built around colonising a new world and hundreds of worlds appear which are better than the one you are on, how many would go.

Mars would be losing its engineers, scientists, builders. Everyone of them severely needed where they are and a massive loss to the terraforming project.

beauf

Deleted User wrote: »

The soviets lost a lot of frightening equipment, during their pull back out of Europe.
Maybe not subs etc but it's a lot easier to hide something in the blackness of space

The Russians took the best stuff and left the rest. Much of it junk. Because the only place those new countries were going to get spares was from Russia. A lot of it sat unused for a good few years, because the new countries were broke.

beauf

Deleted User wrote: »

But Ireland is not death to walk outside your door.
If your entire view of self worth (and that of your society) is built around colonising a new world and hundreds of worlds appear which are better than the one you are on, how many would go.

Mars would be losing its engineers, scientists, builders. Everyone of them severely needed where they are and a massive loss to the terraforming project.

Is that why Ireland is a Tech hub, now because all our best people left...

I don't see it.

beauf

saneman wrote: »

Probably the best answer

And do continue with the books, they flesh out the story so much more. While there have been some changes between book & tv show the overall arc has been consistent.

Enjoying the books. I'm impressed with how they translated the books to screen. As was said there's a greater scale to the books. Though the core stuff is much the same, and a lot of differences.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Is that why Ireland is a Tech hub, now because all our best people left...

I don't see it.

Our people left (starved), in droves during a preindustrial period.


Could we, cut off from trading partners, survive as a tech hub if we reduced our population to 1.5million again rapidly?
An Ireland where not being a tech hub equals death

beauf

Deleted User wrote: »

Our people left (starved), in droves during a preindustrial period.


Could we, cut off from trading partners, survive as a tech hub if we reduced our population to 1.5million again rapidly?
An Ireland where not being a tech hub equals death

I was more thinking of the emigration, in the 90's and 80s, even 2000s.
Our continued focus on education, etc.
Even its completely over stated compared to other countries.

beauf

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The Mars dynamic is similar to what happened in America during the westward expansion, people were flooding into Midwest to pursue their dreams and escape overcrowded old world (Europe back then didn’t have agri tech to support much larger populations, and of course constant wars didn’t make for nice place)

But the gold was found in west, and it was mostly those in middle who got pulled west, the country to this day has majority of population not living in middle but sticking coasts

Other good sci-fi books that explore this dynamic would be Commonwealth Saga (gates to new planets) and Long Earth (parallel universe earths)

Good tip thanks.

Did the east or the europe collapse? Did their culture change because so many left. (I'm going to ignore the US fascination with Cowboys).

pixelburp

beauf wrote: »

Good tip thanks.

Did the east or the europe collapse? Did their culture change because so many left. (I'm going to ignore the US fascination with Cowboys).

I don't think any earth culture really digs into a single project as much as Mars does though. Even grand projects like the Pyramids pale in comparison. Wish I had the pertinent pages in the books to hand, as the writers did a great job selling this idea of an entire planet existing for the single purpose of terraforming its surface. A collosal undertaking that relied on a population that was much higher skilled than Earth's (IIRC most on earth don't have jobs and live on universal income), so would struggle to replace skills if they upped and left for the Gates.

Wait, I think we've been here already lol

breezy1985

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The Mars dynamic is similar to what happened in America during the westward expansion, people were flooding into Midwest to pursue their dreams and escape overcrowded old world (Europe back then didn’t have agri tech to support much larger populations, and of course constant wars didn’t make for nice place)

But the gold was found in west, and it was mostly those in middle who got pulled west, the country to this day has majority of population not living in middle but sticking coasts

Other good sci-fi books that explore this dynamic would be Commonwealth Saga (gates to new planets) and Long Earth (parallel universe earths)

Hello Mr. Murtry glad to have you on Boards.ie

beauf

pixelburp wrote: »

...

Wait, I think we've been here already lol

Exactly.

my experience of the books, (Just finished the first one), is they fill in a lot of the back story of why people do what they do in the expanse.
Much of which is implied or never explained in the TV show. So I'm sure it will add a lot more weight to the story in the TV show.

beauf

Maybe you should put spoilers around that??????

Icyseanfitz

Anyone got any recommendations for a series similar to the expanse? I particularly like the hard sci fi, near future, first contact, mystery of an old advanced civilization, ship of interesting people.

Simi

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Anyone got any recommendations for a series similar to the expanse? I particularly like the hard sci fi, near future, first contact, ship of interesting people.

Battlestar Galactica (much darker in tone), and Firefly are probably the most similar. Stargate Universe maybe?

There's nothing quite like it really. It's by far the best space faring show of the last decade.

Icyseanfitz

Simi wrote: »

Battlestar Galactica (much darker in tone), and Firefly are probably the most similar. Stargate Universe maybe?

There's nothing quite like it really. It's by far the best space faring show of the last decade.

Any books that are similar?

pixelburp

Far thee warned: Firefly is not that similar to Expanse, in the sense that while both follow the underdogs or downtrodden in a galactic civilisation, the tone in Firely was consistently sarcastic and flippant in the manner of Joss Whedon at his best / worst (Delete where applicable)

LLewellen Farquarson

My votes for Battlestar Galactica as well.
Be warned, there are 10 seasons, plus a movie length episode and a few specials.
But the story arc and themes are brilliant and engaging.
My wife even got hooked on it, and she isn't into scifi.

bennyineire

LLewellen Farquarson wrote: »

My votes for Battlestar Galactica as well.
Be warned, there are 10 seasons, plus a movie length episode and a few specials.
But the story arc and themes are brilliant and engaging.
My wife even got hooked on it, and she isn't into scifi.

Yep same as my wife, It is a class show with so many plot twists over the whole series

Mickeroo

I thought there was only 4 seasons of Battlestar Galactica not 10? Or do you mean Stargate?

beauf

Battlestar Galactica a great show also.

In Battlestar Galactica there was too much focus of what was going on in Baltar, head. I get that it was key plot element. Just didn't like it. I suppose we are in Holdens head a bit much also.

beauf

Stargate is fun but its mostly A-Team like.

GreeBo

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Any books that are similar?

You might like Stephen Baxter, especially The Long Earth or Manifold Trilogy.

pixelburp

Mickeroo wrote: »

I thought there was only 4 seasons of Battlestar Galactica not 10? Or do you mean Stargate?

I think they mean Stargate, cos yeah, there were only 4 seasons of the BSG reboot. Not sure there was enough story for 10 seasons!

breezy1985

pixelburp wrote: »

Far thee warned: Firefly is not that similar to Expanse, in the sense that while both follow the underdogs or downtrodden in a galactic civilisation, the tone in Firely was consistently sarcastic and flippant in the manner of Joss Whedon at his best / worst (Delete where applicable)

The crew are very similar especially Cobb and Amos but the shows are pretty different.

BSG is about the only sci-fi outside the Expanse that I have seen in the 21st century that has properly blown me away or has stuck with me beyond a first watch

Icyseanfitz

GreeBo wrote: »

You might like Stephen Baxter, especially The Long Earth or Manifold Trilogy.

Thank you, on book 7 of the expanse so am looking for something to take up when I finish up book 8. Absolutely love this universe. Perfect mix of near enough future with ancient mystery and interesting characters.

LLewellen Farquarson

I do apologise, you are right, there are 4 seasons ( I just dug out the DVDs). There were around 20 episodes per season, so I got a bit confused.

And it is BSG. I haven't watched Stargate that much, a bit to A-team as beauf suggested.

And re books, if you are into naval battles, the Lost Fleet by Jack Campbell is pretty good. It gets a bit samey after a while, but the battle logistics are pretty good.

beauf

I like those books, Lost Fleet by Jack Campbell. Battles are good, does get samey and the non battle stuff is a little simplistic but worth a read. If you like those, Siobhan Dunmoore Series has good ship battles.

pixelburp

breezy1985 wrote: »

The crew are very similar especially Cobb and Amos but the shows are pretty different.

BSG is about the only sci-fi outside the Expanse that I have seen in the 21st century that has properly blown me away or has stuck with me beyond a first watch

The fact BSG is nearly 20 years old and still stands out top of class, kinda reflects poorly on the state of spaceborn Sci-Fi in general. It's a nice sub-genre I suppose, but weirdly BSG never really caused an uptick in copycats or attempts to recreate the recipe.

In fact, even with a proposed Sam Esmail BSG apparently coming, I wouldn't be surprised if it stays grounded on Caprica or whatnot.

hold my beer

Don't think I ever watched an episode of BSG. Went looking to see where I could stream it but it's only available for purchase on SkyStore

pixelburp

hold my beer wrote: »

Don't think I ever watched an episode of BSG. Went looking to see where I could stream it but it's only available for purchase on SkyStore

Make the effort. It's supremely worth it and having recently re-watched, hasn't aged a day. Thematically it remains topical and punchy. Even the FX remain solid; some of the Cylons look a bit ropey but otherwise still looks great.

LLewellen Farquarson

pixelburp wrote: »

Even the FX remain solid; some of the Cylons look a bit ropey but otherwise still looks great.

.
And some of the cylons look Damn Hot!

Ramasun

beauf wrote: »

Stargate is fun but its mostly A-Team like.

I get the comparison but it's a lot more than that especially as it developed long story arcs.