NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2018-19 Thread

ButtersSuki

Morrison J wrote: »

A turnstile? I just know you haven't watched much of Harden with this take though. His defense the last two years has been really good. Not a weakness whatsoever. A few clips from 3/4 years ago has created a false narrative that he's a liability defensively. If you watch him you'll know he's definitely not.

https://twitter.com/Itamar1710/status/1087401160498135040

That’s pretty good for the 125th ranked defensive player amongst guards.

Gregk961

Morrison J wrote: »

A turnstile? I just know you haven't watched much of Harden with this take though. His defense the last two years has been really good. Not a weakness whatsoever. A few clips from 3/4 years ago has created a false narrative that he's a liability defensively. If you watch him you'll know he's definitely not.

https://twitter.com/Itamar1710/status/1087401160498135040

No way, Harden is still a bad defender. Sure he can 1 on 1 his matchup for a few plays but that's pretty basic stuff for one of the best players in the league. I would be pretty confident in saying he is one of the worst defenders in the paint I have ever seen as a starter. That's not even an exaggeration.

Like BS said he is a turnstile. It comes to light every year in the playoffs, he hates playing D.

K.O.Kiki

https://twitter.com/shamscharania/status/1088496850091626497?s=21

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1088497458576048132

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1088498343972618241?s=09

Looking like 9 months recovery for Dipo...

ButtersSuki

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

https://twitter.com/shamscharania/status/1088496850091626497?s=21

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1088497458576048132

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1088498343972618241?s=09

Looking like 9 months recovery for Dipo...

I'd say more like 12-15months TBH before he's back to starter minutes, and that's assuming a successful surgery and no set-backs during rehab. The Spurs eased Parker back very slowly.

Looked horrible when it happened and when I saw it I feared at first it might have potentially been career ending. They covered his leg pretty quickly so fans/players etc. couldn't see it which is always a very bad sign. His leg went into positions a leg isn't supposed to. I wouldn't advise anyone to watch it. Normally I avoid looking at injuries (I still haven't looked at the Levert ankle twist) but caught this unintentionally this morning.

ButtersSuki

Morrison J wrote: »

A turnstile? I just know you haven't watched much of Harden with this take though. His defense the last two years has been really good. Not a weakness whatsoever. A few clips from 3/4 years ago has created a false narrative that he's a liability defensively. If you watch him you'll know he's definitely not.

https://twitter.com/Itamar1710/status/1087401160498135040

With all due respect, I'd wager I've watched more basketball in my life and watch more basketball day to day than anyone on this thread.

Please tell me how he ranks 125th amongst guards from a defensive stats perspective is he's as good as you claim?

There are 30 teams in the league. There are 2 guards on each starting 5. He can't even break the Top 60 - which would make him technically the worst defensive starting guard in the League. There's a further 64 non-starters with better defensive stats than him - and he leads the league in minutes!

Let's take amongst shooting guards then and use another stat - defensive +/-:
https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1

He's 33rd there. Not bad. Considering there's 30 starting shooting guards in the league.

Let's take another D +/-:
Total League first:
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/7/sort/DRPM

Harden comes in at 253rd.
But let me guess, all these stats are wrong and you're right?
When you think of Harden, you think of D alright.

Celebrate his offence all you like (ugly as it is to me and many others), but stop trying to make out he's a good defender.

Morrison J

Gregk961 wrote: »

No way, Harden is still a bad defender. Sure he can 1 on 1 his matchup for a few plays but that's pretty basic stuff for one of the best players in the league. I would be pretty confident in saying he is one of the worst defenders in the paint I have ever seen as a starter. That's not even an exaggeration.

Like BS said he is a turnstile. It comes to light every year in the playoffs, he hates playing D.

One of the worst defenders in the paint? His biggest strength defensively is his post defense. He's legit well above average with that. His biggest issue is his off-ball defense. His awareness isn't great and he gets caught falling asleep, but his man defense is competent and he defends well in the post.

The idea that he "plays zero D" as mentioned yesterday on this thread is a complete myth and can only come from someone who reads box scores over watching games is all I'm saying.

ButtersSuki

Sure, just ignore all the stats I've provided so.

Like I said, I'd wager I've watched a lot more basketball than you in my life and day to day. I'm not basing it on box score.

Twice yesterday (here's one of them) you said his defence has been really good the last 2 years. "really good". Here you also said "his defence is not a weakness whatsoever"

Morrison J wrote: »

A turnstile? I just know you haven't watched much of Harden with this take though. His defense the last two years has been really good. Not a weakness whatsoever. A few clips from 3/4 years ago has created a false narrative that he's a liability defensively. If you watch him you'll know he's definitely not.

https://twitter.com/Itamar1710/status/1087401160498135040

Now today it's:

Morrison J wrote: »

One of the worst defenders in the paint? His biggest strength defensively is his post defense. He's legit well above average with that. His biggest issue is his off-ball defense. His awareness isn't great and he gets caught falling asleep, but his man defense is competent and he defends well in the post.

The idea that he "plays zero D" as mentioned yesterday on this thread is a complete myth and can only come from someone who reads box scores over watching games is all I'm saying.

They sound like weaknesses to me.......

ButtersSuki

Starters just in for the All Star Game. What a surprise, LeBron (who's missed a third of the season) and whose team isn't even in the Play Offs gets a start. :rolleyes: Almost every pod I've listened to this past week said he can't start considering how many games he's missed and where the Lakers are positioned, but the NBA found a way to not just get him to start, he's a Captain!


Here are the five starters for each conference:

WEST
LeBron James — F (Los Angeles Lakers) CAPTAIN
Kevin Durant — F (Golden State Warriors)
Stephen Curry — G (Golden State Warriors)
James Harden — G (Houston Rockets)
Paul George — F (Oklahoma City Thunder)

EAST
Giannis Antetokounmpo — F (Milwaukee Bucks) CAPTAIN
Kyrie Irving — G (Boston Celtics)
Kawhi Leonard — F (Toronto Raptors)
Joel Embiid — C (Philadelphia 76ers)
Kemba Walker— G (Charlotte Hornets)

Morrison J

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Sure, just ignore all the stats I've provided so.

Like I said, I'd wager I've watched a lot more basketball than you in my life and day to day. I'm not basing it on box score.

Twice yesterday (here's one of them) you said his defence has been really good the last 2 years. "really good". Here you also said "his defence is not a weakness whatsoever"




Now today it's:


They sound like weaknesses to me.......

Well, for a start I think using stats to rate individual defense is madness. Wayy too many variables to take them as gospel. Any GM will tell you that. To judge a defender you've got to actually watch them. Pretty sure Kawhi had a negative +/- on the Spurs a few years back. Does that mean he plays zero D too?

The likes of DRtg really measures team defense when that player is on the floor. None of these stats clearly isolate bad individual defense from bad team defense do they? Also if they did, how do they take into account switching etc? The Rockets switch more than probably any team in the league. Bottom line, I'd rather use my eyes than rely on stats. Anyone who uses their eyes to watch Harden will see the notion that he plays "zero D" is a myth.

Well off-ball defense is only one facet. Doesn't mean he automatically plays zero D. Ben Simmons can't shoot but he's a very good offensive player, Klay can't really dribble but he's a very good offensive player etc. One weakness doesn't define a player.

If he played "zero D" he'd be holding back the team as much as aiding them. The effort is definitely there if you watch him. Not saying he's ever going to make an All-Defense team, because he's definitely not, but he because of a few gifs that were floated around a few years back people still see him as a total liability defensively. Thats nonsense.

K.O.Kiki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Starters just in for the All Star Game. What a surprise, LeBron (who's missed a third of the season) and whose team isn't even in the Play Offs gets a start. :rolleyes: Almost every pod I've listened to this past week said he can't start considering how many games he's missed and where the Lakers are positioned, but the NBA found a way to not just get him to start, he's a Captain!


Here are the five starters for each conference:

WEST
LeBron James — F (Los Angeles Lakers) CAPTAIN
Kevin Durant — F (Golden State Warriors)
Stephen Curry — G (Golden State Warriors)
James Harden — G (Houston Rockets)
Paul George — F (Oklahoma City Thunder)

EAST
Giannis Antetokounmpo — F (Milwaukee Bucks) CAPTAIN
Kyrie Irving — G (Boston Celtics)
Kawhi Leonard — F (Toronto Raptors)
Joel Embiid — C (Philadelphia 76ers)
Kemba Walker— G (Charlotte Hornets)

Wasn't the All-Star Captain position based on last year?

ButtersSuki

Morrison J wrote: »

Well, for a start I think using stats to rate individual defense is madness. Wayy too many variables to take them as gospel. Any GM will tell you that. To judge a defender you've got to actually watch them. Pretty sure Kawhi had a negative +/- on the Spurs a few years back. Does that mean he plays zero D too?

The likes of DRtg really measures team defense when that player is on the floor. None of these stats clearly isolate bad individual defense from bad team defense do they? Also if they did, how do they take into account switching etc? The Rockets switch more than probably any team in the league. Bottom line, I'd rather use my eyes than rely on stats. Anyone who uses their eyes to watch Harden will see the notion that he plays "zero D" is a myth.

Well off-ball defense is only one facet. Doesn't mean he automatically plays zero D. Ben Simmons can't shoot but he's a very good offensive player, Klay can't really dribble but he's a very good offensive player etc. One weakness doesn't define a player.

If he played "zero D" he'd be holding back the team as much as aiding them. The effort is definitely there if you watch him. Not saying he's ever going to make an All-Defense team, because he's definitely not, but he because of a few gifs that were floated around a few years back people still see him as a total liability defensively. Thats nonsense.

Re. point in bold - at least you concede that. The way you were talking yesterday (that his defence was "really good") was like he was way above average at NBA level, and he most definitely is not.

Ah the great stats don't count for defence but they mean everything on offence line - I was wondering when that would come out! :rolleyes:

Any GM will tell me that? Do you talk to many GMs?

I can imagine at a GM meeting the conversation being the following:
Danny Ainge: We need a defensive 2 guard because we're not happy with Marcus Smart's effort levels.
Daryl Morey: We were actually looking for shoot first 2 guard as Harden plays so much D he's tiring himself out.
Ainge + Morey (simultanesouly): Wait a minute......what if....

Yeah, when you think of Harden you think D first.

Again, stop assuming I don't watch basketball. You're seeing what you want to see if you think Harden is even an average defender in the league.

Last time I checked switching was part of defence. Defence also means being able to defend the player you're switched on to.

"Klay can't really dribble"?, now I have to ask how much basketball do you watch?

As for your comment about how his D affects/doesn't affect the team D etc. Houston don't emphasise D. Their system is heavily weighted towards offence. They want to run and gun, they think even if you score 145, they'll score 150. I can't recall the exact stat and I don't have time to look for it now but there was some stat going around before Christmas that they were something like 2-20 when they and the opposition score less than 100, i.e.e in defence dominated games. So naturally they play to their strengths and push the pace and run, run, run, and overcompensate by shooting more 3s than the opposition to make up for any defensive liabilities. They're the basic tenets of Moreyball - 3s, dunks, FTs (no medium or long 2s) and shoot early to generate more possessions per game in the hope of over the entire game you'll hit more 3s than they hit 2s etc.

Now contrast that with teams like SA or Boston who strategically plan defensive schemes and place a much higher emphasis on defence (relative to Houston) and you see how things differ. You think Harden would be playing like he is under Popovich? Do you think James Harden would be allowed go 1-17, 2-18 etc. from 3 under Popovich? Does that make Popovich a bad coach?

It's all going to fall apart for Harden again come the Play Offs but I can see the vacuum created by LeBron's injury had to be filled somehow so I guess this is where the fanboys have gone.

Paully D

Skip is such a brilliant troll :pac:

https://twitter.com/realskipbayless/status/1088656523427864576?s=21

ButtersSuki

Paully D wrote: »

Skip is such a brilliant troll :pac:

https://twitter.com/realskipbayless/status/1088656523427864576?s=21

:pac:

Trolling aside, he’s probably the best of the “controversial talking head” types. I tend not to watch those type of pundits very often but on occasion I’d watch him wind up Stephen A or Shannon, esp. on the topic of LeBron. He’s a master at it in fairness.

Morrison J

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Re. point in bold - at least you concede that. The way you were talking yesterday (that his defence was "really good") was like he was way above average at NBA level, and he most definitely is not.

Ah the great stats don't count for defence but they mean everything on offence line - I was wondering when that would come out! :rolleyes:

Any GM will tell me that? Do you talk to many GMs?

I can imagine at a GM meeting the conversation being the following:
Danny Ainge: We need a defensive 2 guard because we're not happy with Marcus Smart's effort levels.
Daryl Morey: We were actually looking for shoot first 2 guard as Harden plays so much D he's tiring himself out.
Ainge + Morey (simultanesouly): Wait a minute......what if....

Yeah, when you think of Harden you think D first.

Again, stop assuming I don't watch basketball. You're seeing what you want to see if you think Harden is even an average defender in the league.

Last time I checked switching was part of defence. Defence also means being able to defend the player you're switched on to.

"Klay can't really dribble"?, now I have to ask how much basketball do you watch?

As for your comment about how his D affects/doesn't affect the team D etc. Houston don't emphasise D. Their system is heavily weighted towards offence. They want to run and gun, they think even if you score 145, they'll score 150. I can't recall the exact stat and I don't have time to look for it now but there was some stat going around before Christmas that they were something like 2-20 when they and the opposition score less than 100, i.e.e in defence dominated games. So naturally they play to their strengths and push the pace and run, run, run, and overcompensate by shooting more 3s than the opposition to make up for any defensive liabilities. They're the basic tenets of Moreyball - 3s, dunks, FTs (no medium or long 2s) and shoot early to generate more possessions per game in the hope of over the entire game you'll hit more 3s than they hit 2s etc.

Now contrast that with teams like SA or Boston who strategically plan defensive schemes and place a much higher emphasis on defence (relative to Houston) and you see how things differ. You think Harden would be playing like he is under Popovich? Do you think James Harden would be allowed go 1-17, 2-18 etc. from 3 under Popovich? Does that make Popovich a bad coach?

It's all going to fall apart for Harden again come the Play Offs but I can see the vacuum created by LeBron's injury had to be filled somehow so I guess this is where the fanboys have gone.

Right, but do you concede the idea he plays "zero D" is just hyperbole?

He's above average in certain aspects of defense especially in the post but overall he's closer to average I'd say, not a liability. Last two years his defense has genuinely been good.

Stats are obviously far more relevant to rate an offensive players ability. Scoring is a direct contribution to the team. Defense is way more subjective and relative to a tonne of variables.

GM's do interviews to be fair. Here's Daryl Morey himself saying that there isn't one publicly available defensive stat worth paying attention to https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/898d3j/nba_general_manager_and_advanced_statistical/

Klay doesn't regularly beat guys off the dribble. It's not a strength of his. The Warriors to go a great job of playing to his strengths. He had four total dribbles in his 43 point game the other week.

Well, Harden has a lot more .400+ shooting games from 3 than he does 1/17 etc which are anomalies. He'd put big numbers up for any team in the league right now without question. The way he has mastered his skillset means he's pretty much unstoppable. Is there any player in the league (or even any of the greats) you'd take to beat this version of Harden 1 v 1? I don't think so. Thats all the Rockets do. Get him into iso and get him into those situations. Any coach worth his salt would do the same.

ButtersSuki

Morrison J wrote: »

Right, but do you concede the idea he plays "zero D" is just hyperbole?

He's above average in certain aspects of defense especially in the post but overall he's closer to average I'd say, not a liability. Last two years his defense has genuinely been good.

Stats are obviously far more relevant to rate an offensive players ability. Scoring is a direct contribution to the team. Defense is way more subjective and relative to a tonne of variables.

GM's do interviews to be fair. Here's Daryl Morey himself saying that there isn't one publicly available defensive stat worth paying attention to https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/898d3j/nba_general_manager_and_advanced_statistical/

Klay doesn't regularly beat guys off the dribble. It's not a strength of his. The Warriors to go a great job of playing to his strengths. He had four total dribbles in his 43 point game the other week.

Well, Harden has a lot more .400+ shooting games from 3 than he does 1/17 etc which are anomalies. He'd put big numbers up for any team in the league right now without question. The way he has mastered his skillset means he's pretty much unstoppable. Is there any player in the league (or even any of the greats) you'd take to beat this version of Harden 1 v 1? I don't think so. Thats all the Rockets do. Get him into iso and get him into those situations. Any coach worth his salt would do the same.

Oh Jesus.



The John Wall Fan Boy comments a few years back I thought were the craziest this thread could get. That was beaten by some of the LeBron stuff, but this, this is the best yet.

Morrison J

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Oh Jesus.

I was actually listening to the Bill Simmons podcast this morning and they made that point that he'd be near impossible to beat 1 v 1. Who easily beats him? How does someone stop him without the use of help? It's a legit arguement if you look past your hate for him.

ButtersSuki

Morrison J wrote: »

I was actually listening to the Bill Simmons podcast this morning and they made that point that he'd be near impossible to beat 1 v 1. Who easily beats him? How does someone stop him without the use of help? It's a legit arguement if you look past your hate for him.

Where's the hate? I don't hate him. I just think he's currently being overhyped and that has now extended into you saying repeatedly that he's a "really good defensive player" on multiple occasions.

To answer: Jordan, LeBron (who I also "supposedly" hate btw), Kareem, Wilt...I could give more, Kobe for example.

Kareem and Wilt (in particular) athletically would smother him. Even if he beats them off the dribble the shot is getting blocked. And it'd be a lot harder shooting step back 3s over either's wing span.

Simmons had an off the cuff far from 100% serious conversation about him and didn't actually say Harden would beat Jordan btw - which of course you know having listened to it. I think peak Jordan beats him for a number of reasons:
1. Jordan has a killer instinct we haven't ever seen from Harden
2. Jordan's defence was infinitely better than Harden's
3. Jordan's 1v1 game was different than Harden's, but equally unstoppable - and especially against a defender of Harden's calibre

What Simmons said was Jordan gets frustrated with the flopping and it ends up in a fight, which Jordan wins. I know because I listened to it.

Likewise, peak LeBron has an edge physically over Harden from height, strength and weight perspectives.

Kobe? Mentally 1 million times stronger than Harden, better defensively and cut throat when game is on the line.

I'm guessing you saw little or nothing of Kareem in his prime, and less of Wilt?

Harden would also have to play defence in . these 1 v 1 games btw, which you seem to forget. And he's not stopping any of the guards/forwards named above. As for the centres, it depends what version of 1 v 1 you're playing and where they start with the ball. If you're starting at the FT line, maybe he can stop them occasionally. If you're starting v Wilt or Kareem at the post, game over.

And if Harden is having one of his 1-17 nights he ain't beating sh*t.

Morrison J

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Where's the hate? I don't hate him. I just think he's currently being overhyped and that has now extended into you saying repeatedly that he's a "really good defensive player" on multiple occasions.

To answer: Jordan, LeBron (who I also "supposedly" hate btw), Kareem, Wilt...I could give more, Kobe for example.

Kareem and Wilt (in particular) athletically would smother him. Even if he beats them off the dribble the shot is getting blocked. And it'd be a lot harder shooting step back 3s over either's wing span.

Simmons had an off the cuff far from 100% serious conversation about him and didn't actually say Harden would beat Jordan btw - which of course you know having listened to it. I think peak Jordan beats him for a number of reasons:
1. Jordan has a killer instinct we haven't ever seen from Harden
2. Jordan's defence was infinitely better than Harden's
3. Jordan's 1v1 game was different than Harden's, but equally unstoppable - and especially against a defender of Harden's calibre

What Simmons said was Jordan gets frustrated with the flopping and it ends up in a fight, which Jordan wins. I know because I listened to it.

Likewise, peak LeBron has an edge physically over Harden from height, strength and weight perspectives.

Kobe? Mentally 1 million times stronger than Harden, better defensively and cut throat when game is on the line.

I'm guessing you saw little or nothing of Kareem in his prime, and less of Wilt?

Harden would also have to play defence in . these 1 v 1 games btw, which you seem to forget. And he's not stopping any of the guards/forwards named above. As for the centres, it depends what version of 1 v 1 you're playing and where they start with the ball. If you're starting at the FT line, maybe he can stop them occasionally. If you're starting v Wilt or Kareem at the post, game over.

And if Harden is having one of his 1-17 nights he ain't beating sh*t.

Well if you keep saying he plays zero defense and that you hate watching him I'd conclude that you probably aren't a fan. If I've somehow gotten that wrong I apologise.

They didn't say he'd definitely beat Jordan but they didn't say Jordan would win easy either did they? It's a legit conversation just thinking about it logically. Harden is very hard to stop 1 v 1. Not sure why you're making such a big deal out of it. What Harden is doing right now is historic and we've never seen offensive scoring like it. Of course he could keep up with the best 1 v 1.

The only thing I'd say about facing the likes of Wilt or Kareem is that if going against someone that could shoot 3's efficiently like Harden can they'd start to fall behind only shoot 2's. Also when does a game of 1 v 1 ever start in the post lol. Obviously from the top of the key is the conversation where Harden would likely make mince meat of them.

The best guys for a conversation like this are guys who can score inside as well as outside. Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, even Dirk in his prime would've been incredibly difficult to stop. Harden absolutely in the conversation with the best of them and I wouldn't back against him beating any of them to be honest. Nothing ridiculous about it.

Also: you do realise even Jordan had nights where he went 2/18 etc? You can say the same for any player. Obviously if they don't shoot well they won't win. We're talking peak v peak.

ButtersSuki

Morrison J wrote: »

Well if you keep saying he plays zero defense and that you hate watching him I'd conclude that you probably aren't a fan. If I've somehow gotten that wrong I apologise.

They didn't say he'd definitely beat Jordan but they didn't say Jordan would win easy either did they? It's a legit conversation just thinking about it logically. Harden is very hard to stop 1 v 1. Not sure why you're making such a big deal out of it. What Harden is doing right now is historic and we've never seen offensive scoring like it. Of course he could keep up with the best 1 v 1.

The only thing I'd say about facing the likes of Wilt or Kareem is that if going against someone that could shoot 3's efficiently like Harden can they'd start to fall behind only shoot 2's. Also when does a game of 1 v 1 ever start in the post lol. Obviously from the top of the key is the conversation where Harden would likely make mince meat of them.

The best guys for a conversation like this are guys who can score inside as well as outside. Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, even Dirk in his prime would've been incredibly difficult to stop. Harden absolutely in the conversation with the best of them and I wouldn't back against him beating any of them to be honest. Nothing ridiculous about it.

Also: you do realise even Jordan had nights where he went 2/18 etc? You can say the same for any player. Obviously if they don't shoot well they won't win. We're talking peak v peak.

Never played 1 v 1 starting on the blocks? Ok. It’s a pretty standard drill at higher levels. There’s a US practice from last summer online which is guess what? 1 v 1 from the block.

I wasn’t talking about 1-17 from the field (like your Jordan comparison) I’m talking from 3, which which if I’m not mistaken happened in this stretch - which you claim is Harden’s peak.

Garden is a below average defensive player got an NBA starter. Jordan would kill him. Kobe would. LeBron would, and many more. And the centres would kill him if it’s block starting position. Kill him.

Oh and I forgot KD.

Have to dash, will return to this later.

Morrison J

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Never played 1 v 1 starting on the blocks? Ok. It’s a pretty standard drill at higher levels. There’s a US practice from last summer online which is guess what? 1 v 1 from the block.

I wasn’t talking about 1-17 from the field (like your Jordan comparison) I’m talking from 3, which which if I’m not mistaken happened in this stretch - which you claim is Harden’s peak.

Garden is a below average defensive player got an NBA starter. Jordan would kill him. Kobe would. LeBron would, and many more. And the centres would kill him if it’s block starting position. Kill him.

Oh and I forgot KD.

Have to dash, will return to this later.

I think you know well the standard format for 1 v 1 is to start from the top of the key. We're not talking about specific drills.

Right, but who's a better three point shooter between Jordan and Harden? Obviously Harden I presume even you can admit that. Jordan didn't shoot enough of them to go 1-17 on a bad night. Going off their abilities to shoot Jordan would be the more likely to go cold from three as crazy as it may seem to you.

Absolutely none of those players would "kill him". Harden would obviously have his struggles to stop them but all would struggle to stop this current version of Harden too. If they'd get stops so easily on him then I'm pretty sure Harden wouldn't be putting up 50 every night taking on elite defenders who have help to draw on too. He's literally impossible to stop at the moment. One of the most versatile scorers ever.

ButtersSuki

Morrison J wrote: »

I think you know well the standard format for 1 v 1 is to start from the top of the key. We're not talking about specific drills.

Right, but who's a better three point shooter between Jordan and Harden? Obviously Harden I presume even you can admit that. Jordan didn't shoot enough of them to go 1-17 on a bad night. Going off their abilities to shoot Jordan would be the more likely to go cold from three as crazy as it may seem to you.

Absolutely none of those players would "kill him". Harden would obviously have his struggles to stop them but all would struggle to stop this current version of Harden too. If they'd get stops so easily on him then I'm pretty sure Harden wouldn't be putting up 50 every night taking on elite defenders who have help to draw on too. He's literally impossible to stop at the moment. One of the most versatile scorers ever.

Yeah, and Jordan would just let him shoot them, not body up at all. :rolleyes: throw in the fact that you wouldn’t have to give him as much space in a 5 v 5 scenario as he uses his passing ability to create space....and yeah, he’d be smothered.

And I keep saying it - but you keep ignoring it - Harden isn’t stopping any of the Jordan, KD, Kobe, LeBron quartet when it’s his turn to play D.

You laughed at the existence of a format that’s standard at higher levels, which begs the question as to how much you actually know about the game other than what you see on tv tbh.

Morrison J

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Yeah, and Jordan would just let him shoot them, not body up at all. :rolleyes: throw in the fact that you wouldn’t have to give him as much space in a 5 v 5 scenario as he uses his passing ability to create space....and yeah, he’d be smothered.

And I keep saying it - but you keep ignoring it - Harden isn’t stopping any of the Jordan, KD, Kobe, LeBron quartet when it’s his turn to play D.

You laughed at the existence of a format that’s standard at higher levels, which begs the question as to how much you actually know about the game other than what you see on tv tbh.

Would you not say Harden is one of the best you've seen at creating his own shots though? None of his scores are off assists which means he creates the space himself and shoots over defenders. If you get too tight he's got the footwork to blow by any of them. His game is literally perfect for a 1 v 1 scenario.

Honestly with more thinking I actually think KD might come out on top of all. He slipped my mind for some reason. He's got the perfect blend of size, shooting ability over contested shots and ability to attack the basket. It's a great discussion though.

I've said before Harden is a very good post defender. Thats what he excels at most defensively. He can get some stops. Realistically though Harden won't be getting loads of stops nor will anyone be stopping Harden too often.

I'm not laughing at the existence of a training drill. I'm laughing at the fact I've to explain that when talking about 1 v 1 I mean from the top of the key. That goes without saying unless stated otherwise surely.

ButtersSuki

Morrison J wrote: »

Would you not say Harden is one of the best you've seen at creating his own shots though? None of his scores are off assists which means he creates the space himself and shoots over defenders. If you get too tight he's got the footwork to blow by any of them. His game is literally perfect for a 1 v 1 scenario.

Honestly with more thinking I actually think KD might come out on top of all. He slipped my mind for some reason. He's got the perfect blend of size, shooting ability over contested shots and ability to attack the basket. It's a great discussion though.

I've said before Harden is a very good post defender. Thats what he excels at most defensively. He can get some stops. Realistically though Harden won't be getting loads of stops nor will anyone be stopping Harden too often.

I'm not laughing at the existence of a training drill. I'm laughing at the fact I've to explain that when talking about 1 v 1 I mean from the top of the key. That goes without saying unless stated otherwise surely.

1v1 from the block:
Drill/competition; as I said it's pretty standard at higher levels - hence for example the US team were doing it as I mentioned. It's considered a more difficult/skillful version than top of the key as you start with your back to the basket (rather than square) and by virtue of the position you have less significantly options and space.

He might be a good post defender for his size but he's not stopping LeBron in particular in the post or I would say Jordan and KD given the size and strength differences. As for Kareem, Wilt etc. please don't say he'd be defending them well too?

You've said neither player will get many stops. I disagree. Everyone I've mentioned is a superior defender to Harden. They'll all get more stops on him than he will on any of them. It's not even close IMO.

I never said he wasn't good at creating his own shot. What I did say is take away the 5 v 5 Houston spacing and a lot of those options disappear because he has no one to pass to - or even the threat of it, so you can play him differently. That's a very different scenario.

I also think you're ignoring the elephant in the room which is that while his teammates are apparently ok with his gunning now (and it is gunning), this usually never ends well from a team morale and chemistry perspective. These guys are pros and super elite by any standards, having virtually no input into offence becomes very old very quickly. Ever played with a ballhog or a gunner? It's no fun whatsoever. This will manifest itself at some stage. It might not be overt, but it'll be stuff like effort drops etc. Guys won't run the floor or set screens ads they know they're not getting the vall so what's the point?

BTW, Houston are 4-4 over their last 8 games. They beat superpowers like the Knicks, Lakers without LeBron in OT, Memphis (1 win in their last 14 games) and Cleveland. They lost to the mighty Nets, even mightier Orlando, Milwaukee, and Philly by 28.

People are getting majorly carried away with this hype train right now.

I'm saying this now, I'd be shocked if they get out of the first round of the Play Offs playing like this, even with Paul and Capella back. This won't work in the Play Offs. So at the end of the day he's putting up a great January....but for what? He's increased his injury risk profile significantly with this minutes loading and for what really (from a team perspective)? I'm sure Houston fans would rather go to the Play offs with a fresh Harden than one who is boll*xed.

What's disappointing for me too is the man management from D'Antoni. He should be resting him more than he is right now. Morey said they don't want Harden playing more than 32mins (from memory per game. He's averaging over 37 per game this season and over 40+ in this stretch. He's letting Harden stat chase when it's unnecessary in some games.

I just hope this doesn't get him injured.

kmart6

Ah lads c'mon, take it to PM if you're going to continue.

ButtersSuki

@kmart - sure, no problem. Sorry if that got carried away.

Separate to the above (promise):
Just looked at the player scoring betting for tonight. Harden is 41.5. I've never seen anything remotely like that. Not checking it now but I saw it at 35.5 a few weeks back and thought that was the highest I'd ever seen (think I posted on it?) but over 40? Bonkers.

On another note, all of Klay's 44 the other night v the Lakers was assisted. Just an interesting contrast stylistically. For me it's a much more attractive and interesting watch.

Didn't realise Indy were only 2.5 games behind the 1 seed in the East when Oladipo went down. I knew they were 3rd, but thought they were a bit further back than 2.5 games. Really sad for them. The Ringer NBA crew last night said that he hasn't been right all year and some Indiana journalists were suggesting he be shut down for the season prior to the injury. Lots of speculation that the injury hadn't healed and this is a case of coming back too soon and re-injuring. They're not getting out of the 1st round now so what do you do if you're them? Even if you start to tank from here it's the East so you're still likely making the Play Offs and they have so much cap space and contracts expiring this summer that they were poised for a run. Oladipo might not even be back this time next year. Parker in hindsight wasn't right for 18+ months after this injury, and Oladipo's looked a lot worse.nReal shame for him and Indiana.

Morrison J

kmart6 wrote: »

Ah lads c'mon, take it to PM if you're going to continue.

Fair I'll stop now so. Will let Haren do the talking from here now in.

killwill

kmart6 wrote: »

79 FTM over the last 5 games which the run covers so give or take a few maybe.

I read that if you eliminate all free throws taken this season he is still top scorer.
Also if you change all 3 pointers to 2 pointers for the season, Harden is still top scorer.
Now I absolutely detest James Harden. His positioning and effort on D are shocking. His "brand" of basketball is boring as hell but he is a natural scorer.
Give me a Klay Thompson over him every day. Great 2 way player. Movement off the ball is great and I fricking love a catch and shoot baller.

ButtersSuki

Morrison J wrote: »

Fair I'll stop now so. Will let Haren do the talking from here now in.

Classy.

ButtersSuki

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Osmosis Jones

The 3-point shootout looks like it'll be worth a watch this year, Dirk has accepted the invitation (which almost definitely means this is his final year) and both Steph and Seth Curry are in it, the brothers competing in their home town.

EDIT: Damian Lillard just joined in too, lots of star power this year.