Poppy

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

A flower supports British army objectives?

What they wave it at the Russians do they?

It is always possible to tell when someone is all out of argument.

Mookie Blaylock

Sidenote.. but I see that Martin O'Neill is concerned about the abuse James McLean may receive if he's picked to play against the North in Belfast because of his anti poppy stance.
I'm all for the poppy... but I respect anyone's decision not to wear it and won't question that....just wish some of our fellow countrymen would follow suit.

Odhinn

Aegir wrote: »

A flower supports British army objectives?

What they wave it at the Russians do they?

It goes towards ex BA personnell. Therefore its helping the british state look after its vetereans. As these would mostly be vetereans of various colonial efforts at this stage, its unacceptable to many of us.

FrancieBrady

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

just wish some of our fellow countrymen would follow suit.

Why would you ever expect an Irish man or woman to support the British Army?

They are quite capable of remembering without doing that and without virtue signalling that they are doing it.

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

It goes towards ex BA personnell. Therefore its helping the british state look after its vetereans. As these would mostly be vetereans of various colonial efforts at this stage, its unacceptable to many of us.

Only if you buy one from the RBL. As far as I’m aware, you can get poppies anywhere.

Most of the service personnel you talk of are long gone now. I’ve only ever met one person who served in the Mau Mau uprising and he died twenty years ago. Similarly with Cyprus, the old boys I worked with (who were all on national service) are dead and buried.

Odhinn

Aegir wrote: »

Only if you buy one from the RBL. As far as I’m aware, you can get poppies anywhere.

Most of the service personnel you talk of are long gone now. I’ve only ever met one person who served in the Mau Mau uprising and he died twenty years ago. Similarly with Cyprus, the old boys I worked with (who were all on national service) are dead and buried.

Most of them are probably dead by now, but - as an example - there are still plenty alive that served in the second gulf war.

corner of hells

Odhinn wrote: »

It goes towards ex BA personnell. Therefore its helping the british state look after its vetereans. As these would mostly be vetereans of various colonial efforts at this stage, its unacceptable to many of us.

What colonial efforts would you be talking about ?
I think the BA contribute significantly to UN peacekeeping nowadays as well the more recent conflicts.

Would you begrudge a UN soldier support ?

Edgware

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

Sidenote.. but I see that Martin O'Neill is concerned about the abuse James McLean may receive if he's picked to play against the North in Belfast because of his anti poppy stance.
I'm all for the poppy... but I respect anyone's decision not to wear it and won't question that....just wish some of our fellow countrymen would follow suit.

Well I suppose its a change from giving him abuse for playing ****e

Edgware

Odhinn wrote: »

It goes towards ex BA personnell. Therefore its helping the british state look after its vetereans. As these would mostly be vetereans of various colonial efforts at this stage, its unacceptable to many of us.

Would you exclude the R.A.F. rescue teams that fly hundreds of miles out to sea to rescue Irish fishermen in trouble seeing as our own crowd cant fly once it gets dark

The Rape of Lucretia

It looks like a deal done on Brexit, and with the UK having done all the heavy lifting it wont be long until southern Ireland launches moves to have a bit of the same action by Brejoining the UK.

The kind of anti British venom on display in this thread about a peaceful and respectful simple symbol like wearing a poppy is going to have to be toned down.

As Ireland moves into its own transition period, next year's poppy season would be a great way to show how Ireland has moved on from the past, is part of British culture and heritage, and is moving towards all of the British Isles working together towards its shared future, prosperity, cooperation, and integration. Wearing a poppy in 2019 could truly be a turning point for the maturity of the Irish, and I think we will see a marked increase in its observance south of the border.

Odhinn

corner of hells wrote: »

What colonial efforts would you be talking about ?
I think the BA contribute significantly to UN peacekeeping nowadays as well the more recent conflicts.

There's rather a lot of them - Greece, Cyprus, Kenya, Mayalasia, Burma, Aden. I provided more detail here for just a few examples

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108578816&postcount=504



The money isn't ringfenced around specific campaigns or duties.

Edgware

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It looks like a deal done on Brexit, and with the UK having done all the heavy lifting it wont be long until southern Ireland launches moves to have a bit of the same action by Brejoining the UK.

The kind of anti British venom on display in this thread about a peaceful and respectful simple symbol like wearing a poppy is going to have to be toned down.

As Ireland moves into its own transition period, next year's poppy season would be a great way to show how Ireland has moved on from the past, is part of British culture and heritage, and is moving towards all of the British Isles working together towards its shared future, prosperity, cooperation, and integration. Wearing a poppy in 2019 could truly be a turning point for the maturity of the Irish, and I think we will see a marked increase in its observance south of the border.

Which border? The one between Armagh and Louth or between Chelsea and Kensington?

FrancieBrady

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It looks like a deal done on Brexit, and with the UK having done all the heavy lifting it wont be long until southern Ireland launches moves to have a bit of the same action by Brejoining the UK.

The kind of anti British venom on display in this thread about a peaceful and respectful simple symbol like wearing a poppy is going to have to be toned down.

As Ireland moves into its own transition period, next year's poppy season would be a great way to show how Ireland has moved on from the past, is part of British culture and heritage, and is moving towards all of the British Isles working together towards its shared future, prosperity, cooperation, and integration. Wearing a poppy in 2019 could truly be a turning point for the maturity of the Irish, and I think we will see a marked increase in its observance south of the border.

Sammy Wilson wants to borrow my St Patrick's hat.
The times they are a changing alright!

RandomName2

Deleted User wrote: »

That includes your historical observations too btw, in case you think it didn’t.

There is a difference between fact and opinion. You're basically peddling Trump style nationalism of alternative facts, diluting complicated things into a simple goodies and baddies perspective: the deliberate adoption of anachronism to support a nationalist mythos.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah yes the classic “hey look over there” distractive comment.

I mean you're looking to cherry pick for ideological framing, so a broad picture would probably be distracting, not to mention inconvenient.

Spook_ie

Spook_ie wrote: »

Wonder if we can keep a poppy thread running until next November, save restarting it?

We need a poppy thread sticky lest we forget how this thread has been the best craic in years. They're getting more hilariously unhinged as the Brexit stuff gathers pace. There definitely is a relationship between their increasing use of "British Isles" and their increasing awareness of British decline.

I sense that the spirit of the, eh, Fallen from previous threads will remain with us forever under various names.

con___manx1

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It looks like a deal done on Brexit, and with the UK having done all the heavy lifting it wont be long until southern Ireland launches moves to have a bit of the same action by Brejoining the UK.

The kind of anti British venom on display in this thread about a peaceful and respectful simple symbol like wearing a poppy is going to have to be toned down.

As Ireland moves into its own transition period, next year's poppy season would be a great way to show how Ireland has moved on from the past, is part of British culture and heritage, and is moving towards all of the British Isles working together towards its shared future, prosperity, cooperation, and integration. Wearing a poppy in 2019 could truly be a turning point for the maturity of the Irish, and I think we will see a marked increase in its observance south of the border.

The poopy is a symbol for the briitish soldier's who sacrificed there lives in all armed conflicts. How can an irish person wear a poppy when some of our historical heros were shot down by brittish forces. We should have our own symbol that we wear to remember our own heros.Also there is the 2 bloody sundays and the shoot to kill policy the brittish govermnet brought in against the Ira.
I respect the irish who fought in the world wars but we should have our own symbol for them.
Do you think the briitish would wear a symbol that represented the german soldiers that died in armed conflicts ?
The brittish were our germans dont ever forget that.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

We need a poppy thread sticky lest we forget how this thread has been the best craic in years. They're getting more hilariously unhinged as the Brexit stuff gathers pace. There definitely is a relationship between their increasing use of "British Isles" and their increasing awareness of British decline.

I sense that the spirit of the, eh, Fallen from previous threads will remain with us forever under various names.

Definitely true. The rise of poppy fascism and the malaise in the concept of the UK are directly linked imo.

I said at the time of the Scot \Ind ref that we were looking at the 20 year breakup of the UK.

Never thought it would be this far down the line so quickly.

Cue; increased jingoism and size of the poppy.

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

Most of them are probably dead by now, but - as an example - there are still plenty alive that served in the second gulf war.

And you’ll find most of them were pretty angry about it as well. They didn’t sign up to get sent out on a politicians personal crusade.

Timberrrrrrrr

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It looks like a deal done on Brexit, and with the UK having done all the heavy lifting it wont be long until southern Ireland launches moves to have a bit of the same action by Brejoining the UK.

The kind of anti British venom on display in this thread about a peaceful and respectful simple symbol like wearing a poppy is going to have to be toned down.

As Ireland moves into its own transition period, next year's poppy season would be a great way to show how Ireland has moved on from the past, is part of British culture and heritage, and is moving towards all of the British Isles working together towards its shared future, prosperity, cooperation, and integration. Wearing a poppy in 2019 could truly be a turning point for the maturity of the Irish, and I think we will see a marked increase in its observance south of the border.

Is there any need for this inflammatory sh/te? Seriously?

kingchess

Wearing the poppy thread reminds me of the book-Catch 22-and Captain black with his glorious loyalty oath crusade,where he had his men sign loyalty oaths before they could do anything,sign loyalty oaths before they could eat etc.the poppy lovers are not quite there yet ,but seem to be heading in that direction with wearing the poppy,

corner of hells

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sammy Wilson wants to borrow my St Patrick's hat.
The times they are a changing alright!

His head couldn't be as big as yours.

Odhinn

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Is there any need for this inflammatory sh/te? Seriously?

Ignore is the best course of action, tbh.

RandomName2

RandomName2 wrote: »

There is a difference between fact and opinion. You're basically peddling Trump style nationalism of alternative facts, diluting complicated things into a simple goodies and baddies perspective: the deliberate adoption of anachronism to support a nationalist mythos.

Alternative facts? You're extracting the proverbial urine at this stage. Colonialism was unpleasant to those who had to face it. No amount of deliberately obtuse waffling by people such as yourself can avoid this fact.

I mean you're looking to cherry pick for ideological framing, so a broad picture would probably be distracting, not to mention inconvenient.

More of the same guff out of you. There's a David Irvingnesque vibe coming off your posts re this whole subject.....

Spook_ie

con___manx1 wrote: »

The poopy is a symbol for the briitish soldier's who sacrificed there lives in all armed conflicts. How can an irish person wear a poppy when some of our historical heros were shot down by brittish forces. We should have our own symbol that we wear to remember our own heros.Also there is the 2 bloody sundays and the shoot to kill policy the brittish govermnet brought in against the Ira.
I respect the irish who fought in the world wars but we should have our own symbol for them.
Do you think the briitish would wear a symbol that represented the german soldiers that died in armed conflicts ?
The brittish were our germans dont ever forget that.

There us one thing I dislike hearing and that's about the BAs shoot to kill policy, what happened to all the prisoners the IRA took?

Odhinn

corner of hells wrote: »

His head couldn't be as big as yours.

...are you implying theres rats in his caravan?

RandomName2

Deleted User wrote: »

Alternative facts? You're extracting the proverbial urine at this stage. Colonialism was unpleasant to those who had to face it.

Because that is totally in dispute right?

Deleted User wrote: »

More of the same guff out of you. There's a David Irvingnesque vibe coming off your posts re this whole subject.....

You literally said that history isn't facts, it's what individuals deem it to be. This is literally what you said. No it's not, it's stuff that happened!

You said that if people don't believe something to be so, then it didn't happen.

David Irving says that the Holocaust wasn't perpetrated by the Nazis. It was. This is objective fact. His subjective interpretation is that the Allies were equally responsible for war crimes and that the Third Reich is unfairly blamed. History is inconvenient for him in this regard so he blinkers himself from the 'distractive comments' and looks only at evidence which suits the conclusion he seeks to draw.

Between this, Fuaranach lunging at imaginary imperialists, and TROL heralding a union of and Ireland and Brexit UK, this thread is coming down with a strong case of craziness.

RandomName2

RandomName2 wrote: »

You literally said that history isn't facts, it's what individuals deem it to be. This is literally what you said. No it's not, it's stuff that happened!

History is not 'stuff that happened'. It's the study and interpretation of stuff that happened. Such study leads to differing interpretations, and humans being what they are, highlights the subjective aspect of historical studies.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

History is not 'stuff that happened'. It's the study and interpretation of stuff that happened. Such study leads to differing interpretations, and humans being what they are, highlights the subjective aspect of historical studies.

Had the history of Bloody Sunday been left after Widgery for example and nobody had objected? Pretty clear what you are saying 17-pdr.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Had the history of Bloody Sunday been left after Widgery for example and nobody had objected? Pretty clear what you are saying 17-pdr.

What interpretation would you give Francie?

con___manx1

Spook_ie wrote: »

There us one thing I dislike hearing and that's about the BAs shoot to kill policy, what happened to all the prisoners the IRA took?

The Ira were a terrorist orgainisation. The brittish army was supppsed to be a legitimate and they were far from it.

Timberrrrrrrr

con___manx1 wrote: »

The Ira were a terrorist orgainisation. The brittish army was supppsed to be a legitimate and they were far from it.

Even more reason to shoot them dead so.

klaaaz

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Even more reason to shoot them dead so.

Harrowing details at the inquest into the murder by the BA of 10 civilians, including a mother of 8. Still waiting for justice while their killers lifestyle is subsidised by the purchase of poppies . https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-46208297

Timberrrrrrrr

klaaaz wrote: »

Harrowing details at the inquest into the murder by the BA of 10 civilians, including a mother of 8. Still waiting for justice while their killers lifestyle is subsidised by the purchase of poppies . https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-46208297

Their killers should be charged and jailed for life if found guilty, I'm talking about terrorists!

Atoms for Peace

The poppy clap trap is straight out of the 'oul populist/fascist playbook, it is sad that so many, even here now, are falling in line.
Here's a wiki piece about somebody with a pair of massive metaphorical balls who refused to play it, hopefully it can give example.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Landmesser

Edward M

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

The poppy clap trap is straight out of the 'oul populist/fascist playbook, it is sad that so many, even here now, are falling in line.
Here's a wiki piece about somebody with a pair of massive metaphorical balls who refused to play it, hopefully it can give example.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Landmesser

For jazus sake will ya shtop it.
There's no one interned for not wearing the poppy.
I have dozens of relatives over there, I never seen any of them wearing them.
I was there myself a few times at this time of year and you can walk the streets and you'll only meet a handful with them on.
We have always had the right to travel, work and indeed collect benefits and such, the same as British citizens.
Britain, England mostly, has always been a second home to the Irish, it kept families and individuals out of the poverty traps here, paid off many a mortgage.
There is a huge Irish community in most cities, republican values are held high within these communities and there is no interference in the main with any of these.

con___manx1

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Their killers should be charged and jailed for life if found guilty, I'm talking about terrorists!

You do realise that there were also brittish terrorists in the north such as the uda and uvf. These terrorists were given information and finances from the brittish govenment.
The briitish govenment had a lot of blood on there hands during the troubles. Infact if you go back though our history they basically commited genocide here and also starved millions of people to death. I Dont no how any patriotic irish person could ever wear a poppy.

prinzeugen

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IglUmgYGxLM

NIMAN

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

The poppy clap trap is straight out of the 'oul populist/fascist playbook, it is sad that so many, even here now, are falling in line.
Here's a wiki piece about somebody with a pair of massive metaphorical balls who refused to play it, hopefully it can give example.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Landmesser

There's plenty of people who don't buy into the poppy nonsense, even in the UK.

As I posted elsewhere, I was in Belfast leading up to the big day. I was shocked at just how few poppies I actually seen being worn. I'd say you'd be talking about 1% of the people I seen on the street and in shops/restaurants etc.

And I spoke to people who have lived in England and they too say don't believe what you see on the BBC or ITV, where people aren't afforded the choice of wearing one or not.

Timberrrrrrrr

con___manx1 wrote: »

You do realise that there were also brittish terrorists in the north such as the uda and uvf. These terrorists were given information and finances from the brittish govenment.
The briitish govenment had a lot of blood on there hands during the troubles. Infact if you go back though our history they basically commited genocide here and also starved millions of people to death. I Dont no how any patriotic irish person could ever wear a poppy.

As i stated, anyone guilty of killing an innocent person should be jailed for life. Also remember that the Gardai gave info to the IRA and Haughey was kniwn to have helped guns/explosives get into ireland for the IRA to use.

Many people from both sides governments and security forces have the blood of innocent people on their hands.

corner of hells

con___manx1 wrote: »

You do realise that there were also brittish terrorists in the north such as the uda and uvf. These terrorists were given information and finances from the brittish govenment.
The briitish govenment had a lot of blood on there hands during the troubles. Infact if you go back though our history they basically commited genocide here and also starved millions of people to death. I Dont no how any patriotic irish person could ever wear a poppy.

How would you know someone's a patriotic Irishman ?

con___manx1

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

As i stated, anyone guilty of killing an innocent person should be jailed for life. Also remember that the Gardai gave info to the IRA and Haughey was kniwn to have helped guns/explosives get into ireland for the IRA to use.

Many people from both sides governments and security forces have the blood of innocent people on their hands.

I agree they should be jailed for life but this thread is about wearing a poppy and i would never wear one. would you ?

con___manx1

corner of hells wrote: »

How would you know someone's a patriotic Irishman ?

Id know if they didnt wear a poppy.

Timberrrrrrrr

con___manx1 wrote: »

I agree they should be jailed for life but this thread is about wearing a poppy and i would never wear one. would you ?

I would and i do.

Edward M

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I would and i do.

I have no problem with that.
Not talking about here in Ireland, but from a British stand point, how do you feel about any British citizen that would refuse to wear one?

Timberrrrrrrr

Edward M wrote: »

I have no problem with that.
Not talking about here in Ireland, but from a British stand point, how do you feel about any British citizen that would refuse to wear one?

I have no issue with it, i have friends who sell them and friends who dont wear one, i just see it as a personal choice for all and have never heard a word mentioned to anyone who chooses not to wear one.

James Brown

They will always be affiliated with the British Army and with their track record around the world and in Ireland, I could never wear one. Anyone who does supports and condones the British Army and their actions IMO. They can barely remember the fallen without getting into their propaganda. Ironically the fallen were the last thing on either the British arrmy or Empire's mind in WWI and certainly not during their WOMD days.

Edward M

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They will always be affiliated with the British Army and with their track record around the world and in Ireland, I could never wear one. Anyone who does supports and condones the British Army and their actions IMO. They can barely remember the fallen without getting into their propaganda. Ironically the fallen were the last thing on either the British arrmy or Empire's mind in WWI and certainly not during their WOMD days.

I'd never wear one either.
But if you knew someone who wore one, who had relatives killed in ww1 and they said they were doing it to remember and honour their deceased relatives, would you feel any animosity towards that person?

Hammer89

super_furry wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpCXxqiTjqE

Every time someone bumps this thread I wind up watching this for about 10 minutes.

Spook_ie

con___manx1 wrote: »

The Ira were a terrorist orgainisation. The brittish army was supppsed to be a legitimate and they were far from it.

Large numbers of people said they weren't terrorists, remember wanting political status in the H Block, and to not be treated as criminals.

end of the road

Edward M wrote: »

I'd never wear one either.
But if you knew someone who wore one, who had relatives killed in ww1 and they said they were doing it to remember and honour their deceased relatives, would you feel any animosity towards that person?

personally i would think a lot less of them yes . by wearing it they are giving money to an organisation who will be providing support to the likes of those involved in bloody sunday and other murderous acts and human rights abuses. they would quite likely be aware of this and would still have chosen to buy and wear it.