Peter Casey believes Travellers should not be recognised as an ethnic minority

EdgeCase

That's why I think when the gloves came off and SF decided to run a candidate and the campaign opened up, other parties should have ran real candidates and not just backed the incumbent.

We've ended up with an election with very inexperienced candidates and a mess really.

jjmcclure

Back in the bad old days before the Good Friday Agreement travellers, certainly in the North, had manners because rightly or wrongly there were a few fellas around who kept manners on them. They have run riot since then.



Its the only language they understand. Just saying......


I await to be torn apart now

vonlars

EdgeCase wrote: »

Again though, what has any of this got to do with the presidency. If he wants to campaign about ethnic minority recognition or removal of that recognition, the president has absolutely no role whatsoever in any of that.

If a president decided to behave like a US executive president and started to try and challenge the government and the Houses of the Oireachtas, then they'd simply be acting unconstitutionally and you'd be straight into a crisis and probably impeachment if they didn't cop onto themselves.

It's a very restricted and restrictive kind of role that is nothing like being a TD or a Senator.

Campaigning on issues that have nothing to do with the role of the presidency is very misleading and is confusing some of the electorate. At best, someone gets elected and is then unable to deliver any of the things they said they would do as they find out the role is not what they thought it was, or at worst they cause a constitutional crisis.

If that's the logic you're going on, then there isn't really much point voting for anyone.

I would rather have someone in Office who represents my views. I also think he is just as capable as any of the others at representing Ireland. Good enough reason for me.

EdgeCase

vonlars wrote: »

If that's the logic you're going on, then there isn't really much point voting for anyone.

I would rather have someone in Office who represents my views. I also think he is just as capable as any of the others at representing Ireland. Good enough reason for me.

Well, that's the nature of the office. It is incredibly constrained. Effectively the Irish president is just a democratic, republican version of a subset of the functions that were held by the monarch in the British system. They're just a figure head and no more.

It's that fact that also makes these elections a bit ridiculous.

If any of them have strong opinions on particular aspects of government policy, the moment they swear in, they have to basically keep their gobs shut as they will be immediately hamstrung by the constitutional requirements of the office. From that point on it's all about making gestures and exercising soft, apolitical power of gentle influence really. There's not much more to that job.

Effectively they're mascot-in-chief.

jmayo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Your post was a rant. A rant against those who do not share your bigotry.
They're all wrong except me Ma - poor me. The lefty, arty types are ruining everything with their talk of treating all human beings with dignity and telling me I shouldn't spew bile at those I don't like - poor me.

Did Casey say we should all be treated equally??? Doesn't that include keeping a civil tongue in your head when talking about other human beings? Or don't Travellers count as fellow human beings?

Was there one thing on your list that non-Travellers are not guilty of?
No.

Well whilst I am disinclined from responding to you, especially so when I see the first person to thank your post is someone whom I have on ignore for quite a while now, I will try one last time.

You see once again you jump to shouting BIGOT, and accuse others of spewing bile.

Can you argue all of those statements do not in anyway apply to a huge number of travellers?

Good luck convincing people that uneducated does not apply when the stats back up the fact most travellers leave school before age of 15 or 16.

Good luck trying to convince people that travellers are civilised when you see bare knuckle boxing and faction fights being used to settle inter family feuds or close to riots and murders at events such as weddings and funerals.

And it isn't some isolated events, there is a huge reason why venues do not want to host traveller events.

Of course to you they are bigots and racist just because they don't want their establishment wrecked and someone possibly severely injured.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

When, however, such terminology is used to describe all members of a particular group - discriminating without discriminating as it were - then history shows us where that can lead.

BTW here are some numbers for you, they appear to have only 2,000 employed out of a census population of 30,000.
There are probably more than 30,000 because they are not the best or most reliable at filling out census forms.
Now those unemployed stats would point to a few things and one would be more than a little surprised that for some folks with such high unemployment levels they have such a range of new vehicles and can spend such amounts on family events.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But perhaps History is too much of a social science for you given you seem to have an issue with the Arts and Humanities as fields of study.

As for your pop about the Fureys - that was in response to a specific question.
Many, world renowned, traditional Irish musicians are Travellers.

There are Arts and Humanities and then there are bullshyte.

BTW I have always had a very keen interest in history and thus know the difference between a real fascist and what you would term one i.e. someone like me that hasn't bent over backwards for every minority group that claims we owe them this that and the other.

And yes there have been some renowned traveller musicians, but you leapt to one mighty conclusion in your claims.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Seriously, I asked before, but no one could give a proper answer.
What difference does it make if travellers are an ethnic minority?
It does not effect anyone else, in fact, I don't see how it effects them.
So, what difference does it make & why are so many people dead against it?

Because being classed differently to other Irish citizens means they receive perks. Like 1.7m housing estates just for them. But that wasn’t good enough and so they draw on this special status again to demand more.

And so these top notch 1.7m housing will remain vacant whilst the travellers stay illegally camped out across the road.

Dunno why pavee point don’t buy land in every county and travellers can then return to their nomadic culture without it costing other landowners money and grief. Put it up on Airbnb.

dav3

vonlars wrote: »

"Peter Casey believes travellers should not be recognised as an ethnic minority".

Firstly, it's an opinion, so all I can give you is arguments that support his opinion.

Let's start with genes - travellers genes are Irish. Not Irish traveller. The difference in their genes comes from consanguinity, aka inbreeding. Source: https://www.ed.ac.uk/usher/news-events/news-2017/gene-study-reveals-irish-travellers-ancestry. So there we have it, they are not what you could class as scientifically an ethnic minority.

Further argument is that by being classed an 'ethnic minority' they are further segregating themselves from the general population. We are all Irish, we all live here and so our goal should be to all be an equal, inclusive society. Giving a certain section of society special rights above everyone else is not conducive to that goal.

Proof of that segregation can be seen in the fact that education levels are low, as are their employment levels. Of 30,000 travellers, 2,000 of them are employed. If they were to be their own society it would fail, as that is a completely unworkable rate of employment. The rest of them presumably live off welfare, paid by the Irish taxpayer. I think it is therefore fair to say that those who class themselves as Irish Travellers do not make a fair contribution to society. Source: https://www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/presspages/2017/census2016profile8-irishtravellersethnicityandreligion/

In case that wasn't enough for you, while making up 0.6% of the population, they make up 15% and 20% of the male and female prison populations respectively. Source: https://www.ssgt.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/TPI-Ethnic-Identifiers-in-Irish-Prisons-Book.pdf That is extremely disproportionate.

On top of all of that, their culture has died. They are no longer hard working people who go around looking for work or mending pots and pans. That's just indisputable.

So, let's turn the question to you, dav3. Why should they be classed as an ethnic minority?

It's an opinion, an uneducated opinion that he himself admits.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/10/19/theres-not-a-racist-bone-in-my-body/

Casey: “You know, I was surprised beyond belief. I thought we’d got way beyond this. I didn’t even realise that there had been this law passed last year giving special ethnic status to…”

Lawlor: “You didn’t know that Travellers were recognised in Irish law? Under Irish law?”

Casey: “I didn’t. I hadn’t realised that.”

Lawlor: “That this is a conversation and indeed a campaign that had been waged a long time and it had come up several times over several…”

Casey: “There’s so many things that have been going on. I’ve been, as you know, it’s only in the last year or so that I’ve moved back full time to Ireland so it’s…”


Someone running for President of Ireland doesn't keep up with all the silly laws of the land. Even some of the most well known laws.



Why I and every other educated Irish person agrees that travellers should be recognised as an ethnic minority is based on research over a period of time by experts in their field. Their conclusion and findings were one of the main factors in bringing about the law.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/travellers-as-genetically-different-from-settled-irish-as-spanish-1.2969515

Ethnic status

The findings provide strong evidence that Travellers should receive some form of ethnic status, according to Prof Cavalleri.

“We think this is a nice piece of evidence for that complex debate,” he said. The research group “would be supportive of some form of ethnic status”.

If you're wondering who Prof Cavalleri is. Prof Cavelleri is Gianpiero Cavalleri BSc, PhD.
Current positions: Associate Professor in Human Genetics
Deputy Head of the School of Postgraduate Studies.
Deputy Director of the SFI FutureNeuro Research Centre.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/q-a-what-does-ethnic-recognition-mean-for-irish-travellers-1.2993526

What does ethnicity mean?

Defined as belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition, ethnicity is not the same as nationality or place of birth. Your ethnicity or cultural background means the group you descended from. An ethnic group is made up by people who share certain characteristics such as culture, language, religion and traditions.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity.

vonlars

dav3 wrote: »

It's an opinion, an uneducated opinion that he himself admits.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/10/19/theres-not-a-racist-bone-in-my-body/

Casey: “You know, I was surprised beyond belief. I thought we’d got way beyond this. I didn’t even realise that there had been this law passed last year giving special ethnic status to…”

Lawlor: “You didn’t know that Travellers were recognised in Irish law? Under Irish law?”

Casey: “I didn’t. I hadn’t realised that.”

Lawlor: “That this is a conversation and indeed a campaign that had been waged a long time and it had come up several times over several…”

Casey: “There’s so many things that have been going on. I’ve been, as you know, it’s only in the last year or so that I’ve moved back full time to Ireland so it’s…”


Someone running for President of Ireland doesn't keep up with all the silly laws of the land. Even some of the most well known laws.

The fact that he didn't know, has nothing to do with his opinion. His opinion came after he said he wasn't aware of the law. What you have quoted is quite irrelevant.

dav3 wrote: »

Why I and every other educated Irish person agrees that travellers should be recognised as an ethnic minority is based on research over a period of time by experts in their field. Their conclusion and findings were one of the main factors in bringing about the law.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/travellers-as-genetically-different-from-settled-irish-as-spanish-1.2969515

Ethnic status


If you're wondering who Prof Cavalleri is. Prof Cavelleri is Gianpiero Cavalleri BSc, PhD.
Current positions: Associate Professor in Human Genetics
Deputy Head of the School of Postgraduate Studies.
Deputy Director of the SFI FutureNeuro Research Centre.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/q-a-what-does-ethnic-recognition-mean-for-irish-travellers-1.2993526

What does ethnicity mean?

Defined as belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition, ethnicity is not the same as nationality or place of birth. Your ethnicity or cultural background means the group you descended from. An ethnic group is made up by people who share certain characteristics such as culture, language, religion and traditions.

"The group you descended from" - ie Irish.

What culture do they share? There is no traveller culture anymore. Unless you consider living off the State a 'culture'.

McMurphy

dav3....

Where to start?

Firstly, this old faithful...

Why I and every other educated Irish person agrees that travellers should be recognised as an ethnic minority is based on research over a period of time by experts in their field. Their conclusion and findings were one of the main factors in bringing about the law.

So people who don't share your views must be uneducated?

I find that quite offensive, but I'll stop short of labelling you with some kind of unpleasant slur


Next.

Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity.

Doesn't that pretty much 100% without a shadow of a doubt just contradict your very own claim that Casey is racist as he's advocating for equality

Tut tut, back to square one.

Any examples of Casey being a racist or bigot?

Strawberry Milkshake

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Because being classed differently to other Irish citizens means they receive perks. Like 1.7m housing estates just for them. But that wasn’t good enough and so they draw on this special status again to demand more. .

Well that's clearly not true, councils supply ( or would be supposed to)
housing to everyone who needs it. So, no difference there then.
Anything else?

jmayo

bubblypop wrote: »

Well that's clearly not true, councils supply ( or would be supposed to)
housing to everyone who needs it. So, no difference there then.
Anything else?

Housing not stables, not grazing land.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Well that's clearly not true, councils supply ( or would be supposed to)
housing to everyone who needs it. So, no difference there then.
Anything else?

Do councils declare that they are building other estates for black people only? Or lone parents or whomever

Strawberry Milkshake

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Do councils declare that they are building other estates for black people only? Or lone parents or whomever

The housing (traveller accommodation) act, is 20 years old.
So around long before they were given ethnic minority status.
So, still no difference whatsoever. I can't see where it makes any difference if they ate ethnic minority of not.

KevIRL

Casey now 9/4 in betting without mdh market

super_furry

KevIRL wrote: »

Casey now 9/4 in betting without mdh market

Think the old Fianna Fail vote with still ensure that Thumbhead finishes ahead of him and claims the King of the Dragon's title.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

The housing (traveller accommodation) act, is 20 years old.
So around long before they were given ethnic minority status.
So, still no difference whatsoever. I can't see where it makes any difference if they ate ethnic minority of not.

I’d actually have more issue with the that housing act tbh.

gmisk

I honestly dont believe Casey is a racist at all, it is really unfair to say so.
He basically said he didnt think travellers should be categorised as an ethnic minority (TBH I agree)

He also said the below.
"basically people camping in someone else's land".
"They are not paying their fair share of taxes in society."

I dont think he saying all travellers are like this, but is it not fair to say a chunk are?
I also thought at least he was honest that he wouldnt want a halting site on his front door, the other candidates were being disingenuous saying they would be fine with it.


Also away from comments on travellers he said below
"there are many people very vulnerable in this country, who are disabled, elderly, in care or for whatever reason, can't work; they deserve every penny in support, if not more."

"But Ireland is slowly becoming a welfare-dependent state, with a sense of entitlement that's become unaffordable."

Are these statements not generally pretty true?

I wont be voting for him for a number of reasons, the rubbish claims against Higgins (e.g. the 10k on dog grooming...BS) I also think he would be an utter shambles and an embarrassment as president, he doesnt really seem to understand the role in any form and seems like a chancer, but I dont disagree with the above statements and think the media reaction has been way OTT.

dav3

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

dav3....

Where to start?

Firstly, this old faithful...



So people who don't share your views must be uneducated?

I find that quite offensive, but I'll stop short of labelling you with some kind of unpleasant slur


Next.




Doesn't that pretty much 100% without a shadow of a doubt just contradict your very own claim that Casey is racist as he's advocating for equality

Tut tut, back to square one.

Any examples of Casey being a racist or bigot?

People who refuse to recognise travellers as an ethic minority, even after the overwhelming evidence to support it, are uneducated and anti-Irish rabble rousers. You can whip out the victim card and cry yourself to sleep tonight over it, nobody cares. If you want to back Casey and his anti-Irish rants because he 'tells it like it is', even when he has no idea what he's talking about, go for it.



As for the rest, you can ask the question another 20 times today or go back through the posts.

McMurphy

The Irish presidential candidate, calling for all Irish people to be treated equally is now anti Irish.

And anyone who doesn't agree is uneducated.


I give up.

Thread satirical level = grand master.

You're not doing yourself many favours dav3.

Omackeral

dav3 wrote: »

All I can suggest to you is to go back through the posts.

You're right, that is all you ever suggest because you've nothing else. You never have the courtesy or courage in your convictions to answer straight-up and direct questions in case they don't go your way. Very slimy. Very politician-like.

FrancieBrady

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The Irish presidential candidate, calling for all Irish people to be treated equally is now anti Irish.

And anyone who doesn't agree is uneducated.


I give up.

Thread satirical level = grand master.

You're not doing yourself many favours dav3.

All Irish people are treated equally under the constitution Johnny.

If I am 'entitled' to a medical card and you aren't entitled to one, that does not alter our status one wit under the constitution or in equality terms.

You really need to see the rationale here.

Omackeral

dav3 wrote: »

Why I and every other educated Irish person agrees that travellers should be recognised as an ethnic minority

Wrong. Nope. Proof.

Omackeral

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

dav3....

Tut tut, back to square one.

Any examples of Casey being a racist or bigot?

Omackeral

bubblypop wrote: »

I can't see where it makes any difference if they ate ethnic minority of not.

I think that might be a problem, regardless of politics.

McMurphy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All Irish people are treated equally under the constitution Johnny.

If I am 'entitled' to a medical card and you aren't entitled to one, that does not alter our status one wit under the constitution or in equality terms.

You really need to see the rationale here.

Yeah, and now you seem to be agreeing with the general consensus that giving fellow Irish people special statuses is a nonsense.

None of my fellow Irishmen or women are any more or less equal than me.

There's a constitution there already to ensure equality.

You're agreeing with my point from the start, without even realising it.

Brendan Bendar

Jaysus😦

Looks like a florist, 'attached’ to the Árus got a jolly to Oz!

Paid for by John Q Taxpayer.

Can this be true ……… what was her role… how was she described on the list of traveling officials.

Very disturbing, in my opinion.

FrancieBrady

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Yeah, and now you seem to be agreeing with the general consensus that giving fellow Irish people special statuses is a nonsense.

None of my fellow Irishmen or women are any more or less equal than me.

There's a constitution there already to ensure equality.

You're agreeing with my point from the start, without even realising it.

Exactly. SEMS does not change anybody's equality. Nor their nationality.
It is no threat to you or me and was never meant to be.

For Casey to use it to attack travellers in general was a very dubious thing and it is perfectly possible that it is 'racial discrimination' under the UN definition of same.
You have been shown chapter and verse on this and you are just being stubborn and rather silly about it.

No matter how much hand waving away you do, Casey attacked the official ethnic status and generalised about a community. It is all there in factual quotes from the man.

gmisk

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Jaysus😦

Looks like a florist, 'attached’ to the Árus got a jolly to Oz!

Paid for by John Q Taxpayer.

Can this be true ……… what was her role… how was she described on the list of traveling officials.

Very disturbing, in my opinion.

Do you have a link please?

JMNolan

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Jaysus😦

Looks like a florist, 'attached’ to the Árus got a jolly to Oz!

Paid for by John Q Taxpayer.

Can this be true ……… what was her role… how was she described on the list of traveling officials.

Very disturbing, in my opinion.

PARK LIFE Questions surround President Michael D Higgins’ State visit to Australia in 2017 as it emerges his ‘gifted floral arranger’ flew to Oz with official delegation

https://www.thesun.ie/news/3290012/michael-d-higgins-australia-visit-floral-arranger/

Calhoun

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Yeah, and now you seem to be agreeing with the general consensus that giving fellow Irish people special statuses is a nonsense.

None of my fellow Irishmen or women are any more or less equal than me.

There's a constitution there already to ensure equality.

You're agreeing with my point from the start, without even realising it.

Well thats what we all should agree but you know how they are, they are using the ethnic status to push for additional rights.

A tactic seen in other jurisdictions, its not just enough to be equal but because poor me the victim they need that extra leg up rights.

In this case it just so happens they want to be able to treat animals like **** legally and they want to be able to rock up to any land and not be moved on.

So yah ethnic status on its own means nothing but if you expect me to believe that the same people who came out and said that they are now fearful to live in Ireland because they were called on their BS would not use this to their advantage your having a laugh.

With Casey we draw the line in the sand and say that in a republic this isn't good enough. Don't mind those trying to convince you that it means nothing as they aren't that honest as seen in this thread.