Daniella Ryf and the elephant in the room ?

TriFirst

Some numbers for you taken from Kona Ironman results ..

Looking at the last 70km of the bike

Cameron Wurf : 1:35:25

Daniella Ryf : 1:37:11

Andrew Starky : 1:37:38

Patrick Lange : 1:38:00

this just does not add up for me. The conditions were ideal for all competitors so the fast times can be justified but what cant be explained away so easily is Ryf's ability to compete with male ''uber bikers'' like Wurf and Starky. If this was pro cycling alarm bells would be ringing here. That men and women have won Kona multiple times in successive years in the past is not my issue, my issue is Ryf seems to be operating at a superhuman level and if something looks too good to be true, it generally is.

EC1000

Why are you picking out a select section of the course and comparing numbers? Different race strategies will lead to these numbers being extremely out of context. Gomez admitted that he was blowing up at the end of the bike having gone too hard for his ability. Starky also blew his lights out on the first half of the course and was struggling at that point.

How do the above stack up if you take the times for the first 70k of the course?

I'm not saying there is nothing to discuss but why not take the time for the whole bike leg as a fair comparison?

TriFirst

EC1000 wrote: »

Why are you picking out a select section of the course and comparing numbers? Different race strategies will lead to these numbers being extremely out of context. Gomez admitted that he was blowing up at the end of the bike having gone too hard for his ability. Starky also blew his lights out on the first half of the course and was struggling at that point.

How do the above stack up if you take the times for the first 70k of the course?

I'm not saying there is nothing to discuss but why not take the time for the whole bike leg as a fair comparison?

Because after 110km of the bike the argument can't be made that Ryf is still suffering from the jelly fish stings that impacted her swim time.

It's simply not sustainable to suggest that this performance doesn't merit a few raised eyebrows. Lange wins with the fastest kona time in history yet Ryf posts a faster 70km bike portion than him? I want to believe she's that gifted but I have more questions than answers at this stage. These points are very legitimate.

68 lost souls

I looked at this but then looked at the rest of the bike and the top 29 male were faster on the bike total. I would say pacing and a different type of race would certainly go a long way to explaining it, as in trying to catch the front vs a steady state that others biked.

EC1000

TriFirst wrote: »

Lange wins with the fastest kona time in history yet Ryf posts a faster 70km bike portion than him?

The point I am making is that it is not a 70km bike race.

peter kern

TriFirst wrote: »

Because after 110km of the bike the argument can't be made that Ryf is still suffering from the jelly fish stings that impacted her swim time.


yes but somebody that understadns the sport will tell you thats the way she always rides she always builts into the bike ride.



while you can off course raise your eyebrows before you do that you should study the athlete a bit more...



ie while the swim hurt for sure she was also swimmng at a lower hr for instance and she lost time at the begining of the bike so she again depeleted energy stores less had more energy for the end...



also you need to consider bike set up she cant produce max power the way she is fitted but its a fit that allowes very good sustainabe power .

females genrate less heat so lose less peower at the end of ride


while females have less max power they tend to get beter the longer distances get.



just a few things for you to consider



are yo saying lange is is drugs to as he got dropperd at the beginning of the run and then destroyed them in the 2nd half ?


and again i have no idea who takes drugs and who dosnt and certainly agree a clean drug test dosnt mean an athlete is clean.



still the way she rode was at a level of perfection of federer and bolt it was a pleasure to watch , just as it as pleaseure to watch lange run in the 2nd half of the run course ( after he let the others get away in the first half as he knew they were going to fast )

peter kern

TriFirst wrote: »

Because after 110km of the bike the argument can't be made that Ryf is still suffering from the jelly fish stings that impacted her swim time.

It's simply not sustainable to suggest that this performance doesn't merit a few raised eyebrows. Lange wins with the fastest kona time in history yet Ryf posts a faster 70km bike portion than him? I want to believe she's that gifted but I have more questions than answers at this stage. These points are very legitimate.

btw why dosnt lange raise any concerns for you given his rise over the last 3 years ???



I am not saying he is suspicious ( as his small size works just perectly for hot conditions ) but i want to understand why you dont think his performace is not suspicous if you look at the last 10 years of his carrer.



ie using him as an example is pretty much the worst you could have chosen lol

i am certainly more suprised aobut him than her.

TriFirst

68 lost souls wrote: »

I looked at this but then looked at the rest of the bike and the top 29 male were faster on the bike total. I would say pacing and a different type of race would certainly go a long way to explaining it, as in trying to catch the front vs a steady state that others biked.

I believe this is too simplistic an explanation and doesn't address why you have a female out-biking male uberbikers. Even if Ryf is pushing to bridge the gap to Lucy Charles she shouldn't be out-biking people like Lange and Starky on the latter 70km portion of the bike ride. Even if you accept that Ryf is a gifted athlete with Brett Sutton in her camp, it still doesnt make sense to me. We have just witnessed one of the most extraordinary performances in triathlons history in Ryf, how are people not asking questions here ?

EC1000

TriFirst wrote: »

I believe this is too simplistic an explanation and doesn't address why you have a female out-biking male uberbikers.

She didn't out-bike them....

TriFirst

peter kern wrote: »

btw why dosnt lange raise any concerns for you given his rise over the last 3 years ???



I am not saying he is suspicious ( as his small size works just perectly for hot conditions ) but i want to understand why you dont think his performace is not suspicous if you look at the last 10 years of his carrer.



ie using him as an example is pretty much the worst you could have chosen lol

i am certainly more suprised aobut him than her.

Oh believe me, I think you could pick many from the pro ranks that might be suspicious. I only chose Ryf on this occasion because of the enormity of her performance at the weekend.

Given the increasing levels of corporate money involved at the highest levels of triathlon it would be naive to think some well known pro triathletes arent using peds. Some age groupers have been caught doing it so surely its feasible for some of the pros to contemplate the same.

TriFirst

EC1000 wrote: »

She didn't out-bike them....

Over the latter 38% of the bike course she out-biked Starky and Patrick Lange who would go on to post the fastest Kona time in history ....

peter kern

TriFirst wrote: »

Over the latter 38% of the bike course she out-biked Starky and Patrick Lange who would go on to post the fastest Kona time in history ....

did you even watch the race ?



starky looked already goosed after 80 k on the bike

peter kern

peter kern wrote: »

did you even watch the race ?



starky looked already goosed after 80 k on the bike

no doubt there is drugs in tri but your arguments are pub league at best. and of course she could be on drugs.

for instacne how can she get skinner and yet hold her strenght on the bike is a more legitimate question you could ask .

EC1000

Looking at the fist 67k split of the bike:

Wurf 1:31:28
Starky 1:32:28
Lange 1:35:05

Ryf 1:41:16

Also, Charles outswam all of the above by some distance so she is clearly on drugs going by the logic of this thread.

TriFirst

EC1000 wrote: »

Looking at the fist 67k split of the bike:

Wurf 1:31:28
Starky 1:32:28
Lange 1:35:05

Ryf 1:41:16

Also, Charles outswam all of the above by some distance so she is clearly on drugs going by the logic of this thread.

Over the first 60km she's still only 5 mins slower than the male winner.

Lucy Charles was a GB swimmer before triathlon, I'm worse for arguing with you

TriFirst

peter kern wrote: »

no doubt there is drugs in tri but your arguments are pub league at best. and of course she could be on drugs.

for instacne how can she get skinner and yet hold her strenght on the bike is a more legitimate question you could ask .

My point is exactly that, of course she could be on drugs, even someone who frequents a pub could tell you that. I just picked out a stat that I found interesting but feel free to flesh out your thoughts with your insights. What else have you seen other than the weightloss / power anomaly that makes you suspicious?

mossym

peter kern wrote: »

starky looked already goosed after 80 k on the bike

i think starky's problem was he used up all his energy wagging his tongue before the race. i'm struggling to recall someone talking themselves up so much before a race then coming up so short. in fact i'm struggling to think of someone doing so much trash talking before an event period.


i'm all for characters in the sport, hell it needs it big time, but his comments (twitter and others) in the weeks leading up to kona were cringeworthy. you'd almost suspect he knew he wasn't in shape and wanted the limelight while folks were expecting big things. I'm not his biggest fan, i do admire hoe he keeps coming back after adversity, but i can't help but feel kona 18 is an overall negative for him

EC1000

TriFirst wrote: »

I'm worse for arguing with you

You know what they say about never arguing with an idiot.....

sconhome

mossym wrote: »

peter kern wrote: »

starky  looked  already  goosed  after  80  k  on the  bike

 in fact i'm struggling to think of someone doing so much trash talking before an event period.

There'a  lad who's Notorious for it

TriFirst

EC1000 wrote: »

You know what they say about never arguing with an idiot.....

Indeed. But my point stands, is Ryf's performance legitimately outstanding or does triathlon have to come under increased scrutiny now.

Marty Bird

peter kern wrote: »

no doubt there is drugs in tri but your arguments are pub league at best. and of course she could be on drugs.

for instacne how can she get skinner and yet hold her strenght on the bike is a more legitimate question you could ask .

In fairness to get thinner and hold her power she could have a really bad asthma problem

peter kern

TriFirst wrote: »

My point is exactly that, of course she could be on drugs, even someone who frequents a pub could tell you that. I just picked out a stat that I found interesting but feel free to flesh out your thoughts with your insights. What else have you seen other than the weightloss / power anomaly that makes you suspicious?

I have no details to make a serious case for not doping as i dont have the facts so i prefer not to comment. i only now tit bits how she trains etc etc


but lets look at it from the other side



she was a top itu athlete that always had a bike strenght.

the swiss character is a good one for endurance sport ( meticoulus hard working boring etc etc )

her coach very clearly saw she is a better long course athlete than short course ( forced her pretty much against her will to long course)

she is improving yes with ups and downs last year she was injured

but for the full she is still not maxed out

she is about as good as wellington and she was not maxed out either and i do believe the females are not maxed out yet in performance.



ryf is not easy there was a time she changed from coach to coach so now she has been with the same coach for many years so i guess she has has confidence and this coach has the longest running track record in the sport ( lets not talk about this charracter and wheather he should be alowed to coach) but the titles talk for him .

so for me I can understand the progress she is obviously a very taletned athlete and has an environmant that works



she is fantsticaly gifted on the bike she is comparable to when federer plays tennis or bolt when he runs its is just great to watch( and if i could imagine there is a fast 100m runner that was clean its
him )

other points she went the first time to the wind tunnel this year ( this could have helped ) she has definitely put more attention at some bike details

also there was very little wind on sat and that works for lighter atheltes more than bigger ( at roth her bike split a few years i think was closer than it was on sat so its not such an outstanding bike over 180 k



and of course it would be so silly that if you are head and shoulders above your competiton to dope . because if she was doping she would still win without it.



pro as i said she looks skinier than ever

i would not put my hand i the fire to any athlete . and the drug industy is always a bit ahead ...



so personally i have many more points con doping than pro doping

also it can not be possible that a swimmer that had never cycled and not really run can beat every triathlete with 5 year endurance traiing

charles is also very very gifted but still i expect an very gifted atheltes that has been in tri for many years to be an evel above that athlete.

at the same time looing at charles imrovement there is also nothing that would raise the flags beyond generall suspicion that we know that there is drugs in sport

but like ryf she also is a very natural cyclist who will improve her positon.

and i would think that haug in 2-3 years will be a nonster at the bike as well ( given her size not quite as fast as the other 2 but very close )





if i was to write the same for lange

i would have to say made the jump from medicore athlete to kona winner in 1 year after changing to a coach who had never coached an athlete before...( at the same time he thought farris is god if you rember how he talked about him after his first kona win )





and he was definitely massivly underperforming

he was alsways a good swimmer and good runner so its not like i cant comprehend it but its harder

at the same time he had the miles in the body

when i see him racing he is extremly smart. i dont think anybody performs so well at aid stations than he does its not that he is faster than the others its more that he sowes down less than the others . he peaks at the right time . i would also be very suprised if dreitz wanst getting a bonus this year for his domestique role and iam sure its higher than what 10th place would have gotten him ( my 2 cents and pure specualtion on my part but the way thet talked to each other on the bike ...)

i have no issue with it either as the sport for many many many years is not an individual sport

anyway iam out of here .

RacoonQueen

Huge fan of Ryf, have a total 'girl crush' on her :pac:...but yeah doubts start to seep in when you see performances that seem out of this world. That's only natural. McCrystal brought it up on social media and mentioned that he has only been tested once and hasn't seen other drug testing at IM Pro level.

Follow her on social media and she trains f*cking hard, no doubt about that...but those at the top, especially ones who are breaking records are always going to raise suspicion...especially with bike performances like that.

Halloween Jack

Do they search for motors at all?

68 lost souls

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Huge fan of Ryf, have a total 'girl crush' on her :pac:...but yeah doubts start to seep in when you see performances that seem out of this world. That's only natural. McCrystal brought it up on social media and mentioned that he has only been tested once and hasn't seen other drug testing at IM Pro level.

Follow her on social media and she trains f*cking hard, no doubt about that...but those at the top, especially ones who are breaking records are always going to raise suspicion...especially with bike performances like that.

I know the second place female AG was tested, she was open about posting it on Instagram. She has been tested before.

Laura Siddal has said several times that she has been tested or has seen testing at events all be it not a lot and she is competing every other weekend.

Testing does occur although Bryan may not have witnessed it a lot.

RacoonQueen

68 lost souls wrote: »

I know the second place female AG was tested, she was open about posting it on Instagram. She has been tested before.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm28BF4lBRo/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1smc8nhygmejy

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bn3M-MeCIS5/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=gfpl2muz1t5v

Laura Siddal has said several times that she has been tested or has seen testing at events all be it not a lot and she is competing every other weekend.

Testing does occur although Bryan may not have witnessed it a lot.

AG getting tested but not pro's possibly? I do know someone that got tested at Austria years ago - be interesting to know how much testing do go on, for transparency.

Keeks

RacoonQueen wrote: »

AG getting tested but not pro's possibly? I do know someone that got tested at Austria years ago - be interesting to know how much testing do go on, for transparency.

I suspect pros will mostly be tested out of competition and AGs tested after competition......

Don't pros have to give there training whereabouts for this purpose.

IF anyone looks at WADAs website where they publish the doping figures, you will see that there is a LOT of doping testings carried out across a LOT of sports, but in reality it is only a small percentage of people that will get tested....just not enough resources to test everyone....

peter kern

RacoonQueen wrote: »

AG getting tested but not pro's possibly? I do know someone that got tested at Austria years ago - be interesting to know how much testing do go on, for transparency.

iam to lazy to search but google is your friend . ironman is actualy not that bad with testing when i last looked last year.



https://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/


here you have usada tests you see the atheltes with bigger names getting more often tested sarah true for instance 9 time by usada last year and likely a few more times by other agencies abroad

I would be very suprised if the numbers for ryf are lower



unless you are a sub 8 hour male athlete ie at wolrd class level you r chances of testing are low in fact you r chances to be tested at irish champs is much higher.



the thing is most failled tests are by lower level athletes that often use or claim they used some sort of nutriton enhancer which are often produced in the same places where the real drugs are produced.

its very rare that a big fish gets cought
given that lance one 7 tours you can ask how effective tests are of ocurse . at the same time profesional doping costs about 50 000 euro a year so that rules many triathles out ...

the problem is still in ironman most of tests are competion tests where you would only catch the naive ones . ( itu atheltes have a much higher chance for out of competion tests )

but the top 5 in kona are certainly frequently tested as well as people that do regional champ races . all races in uk and ireland are the lowest tier races from ironman so i guess testing is less likely but can still happen.